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  1. #121
    Astonishing Member Ken Ashcroft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cronus View Post
    Mmm, yeah. My concern is Thor IS the new all father. I'm under the assumption that means he has inherited the Odin force? On the other hand, old issues of Thor indicate when Thor previously inherited the Odin force, there was a learning curve before learning to use it really effectively.
    II haven't been keeping up with how Thor became the new all-father but Odin is not actually dead is he and hasn't it always been in the past when Thor has inherited the Odin power/force it has only been when Odin had supposedly died? It is the Odin power/force after all not the "Asgardian Force" or it is now established that whoever becomes the new ruler of Asgard automatically gets powered up with all of Odin's power?

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cronus View Post
    Do you think it's possible that writers have an aversion toward the character Thor? I've long felt that way about Thor, particularly the way Busiek wrote Thor losing to Superman.

    And I mean that with no disrespect to Mr Busiek.

    But a flat knock out? Wow.

    I feel if that fight had ended more evenly, like some of the old Thor/Hulk fights, we'd all probably be anticipating JLA/Avengers #5 or some such. In fact, isnt how that fight ended the reason Jim Shooter didnt agree to the proposed script originally pitched by DC?
    I personally have no issues with that fight. Superman won yes, but it was a hard fought victory which left him too exhausted to defend himself from a pissed off team of Avengers. Aquaman had to save his bacon. He confirms yet again a few issues later that he barely won. Thor himself later believes he could beat the Krytonian in a rematch, due to having his measure now. Years later (in 2017) Busiek clarified on Twitter that the magic weakness was not at play here. Thor going blow to blow with DC's physically strongest League member -- without exploiting his vulnerabilities -- is definitely not a knock against him. It's still far better than the way he is being treated these days.

    Shooter refused to accept the script because the premise was extremely nonsensical and chock-full of OOC moments. I don't think it had anything to do with Superman vs Thor. Read all about it here: jimshooter.com/2011/07/secret-origin-and-gooey-death-of_21.html/

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brice View Post
    I personally have no issues with that fight. Superman won yes, but it was a hard fought victory which left him too exhausted to defend himself from a pissed off team of Avengers. Aquaman had to save his bacon. He confirms yet again a few issues later that he barely won. Thor himself later believes he could beat the Krytonian in a rematch, due to having his measure now. Years later (in 2017) Busiek clarified on Twitter that the magic weakness was not at play here. Thor going blow to blow with DC's physically strongest League member -- without exploiting his vulnerabilities -- is definitely not a knock against him. It's still far better than the way he is being treated these days.

    Shooter refused to accept the script because the premise was extremely nonsensical and chock-full of OOC moments. I don't think it had anything to do with Superman vs Thor. Read all about it here: jimshooter.com/2011/07/secret-origin-and-gooey-death-of_21.html/
    I never knew about the magic weakness being absent

    That does paint it differently

    Thanks for that

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by kilderkin View Post
    I never knew about the magic weakness being absent

    That does paint it differently

    Thanks for that
    No problem. Here's the convo, if you're curious https://mobile.twitter.com/kurtbusie...70433915101184

    If it were at play, Thor would have killed him. That and nobody brings it up in the entire comic.

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainMar-Vell92 of the Kree View Post
    I've never got the impression of Starlin denigrating other characters to make Thanos and Adam Warlock superior. He sees them as semi-abstract beings who can casually have a chat with Eternity, of course they are gonna be more powerful and more suited to fight against metaphysical threats than Earth's heroes (with the exception of Doctor Strange and Thor). He doesn't hate superheroes like Garth Ennis or Frank Miller. He just likes gray characters more than clear cut heroes and villains.

    Heck i might say he even wrote Thor more respectfully than Aaron in the Infinity Finale ogn, being the last one standing alongside Thanks against the onslaught of Annihilus, while Aaron would have probably have Thor being the first to fall like a chump.

    With that said, i think it's a shame that Warlock barely appears outside of Starlin's stories. I like what DnA did with him, except for Kid Magus, that was dumb.
    When Thanos gathered the infinity gems, he dumped all over the Elders of the Universe, from their intelligence to their basic concept.

    When anyone acted around Thanos, they instantly became dumber, to the point that Cap led all the heroes into an ambush during Infinity War.

    Thanos isn't a mary sue under Starlin? Then name me a time that Thanos has been outsmarted, or overpowered, or outfought as written by Starlin. He wrote Thanos as going toe to toe with an enhanced Thor and Odin in the same damn story.

    Starlin is Thanos' pet and he's stepped over plenty of characters, including Thor, to make that happen.

  6. #126
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    So gave issue one another read through

    I'll go with cons then pros

    Cons

    Problems lifting the hammer suggested, yawn at more of this

    Problems being in charge, yawn, again same old same old

    Not a fan of the new look at all but at least there is an in story reason

    Straight into an end of the universe threat, too quickly, where do you go from there

    Pros

    Loved how he talked to Galactus

    Loved how he spoke to Loki

    Loved the interplay between him and surfer

    Loved how volstag and the other Asgardians backed him up

    Really like the art

    Fantastic opening pages

    Loved the shouts back to origin of Galactus story

    Nice comment about the power of being the king

  7. #127
    Spectacular Member oldschoolfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainMar-Vell92 of the Kree View Post
    So you want a generic cosmic potentate similar to Kanja-ro and Mongul with none of the complexity and philosophical elements?

    Thanos would have been a footnote in Marvel Comics if Starlin didn't evolve the character beyond his Cosmic Cube phase from the 1970's. And i wouldn't have been hooked by Marvel's cosmic heroes and entities if it wasn't for Starlin's work. Kinda like how Deadpool would have been forgotten if Joe Kelly didn't make him a wacky character


    I do agree that lecturing Galactus was a bit too much though.

    Don't read Starlin stories if they aren't your cup of tea instead of telling me that Thanos should get a flanderisation/simplification treatment. Sometines a niche character/series should stay niche instead of being dumbed down to appease a larger audience and losing the elements that made it compelling to its original fanbase.
    Your vision of Thanos and the characters' depth and complexity is impressive. I like it. BUT, my concern is that the medium demands scalability. Writers/Artists need the room to interpret characters in their own manner. I feel that room needs to be left for Starlin's original conception of the character to exist, but that doesn't mean a writer like Alan Moore couldn't come along and elevate the character to a different level, but I think it would be unfair to demand that every writer now handle the character the same way.

    The place that I get upset is when a writer comes along and completely disregards everything that came before with a character and simply trashes it. I very much see that with Aaron's version of Thor, Jane, Odin, etc.

    I don't see that here with Thanos, you're correct, the character isn't as complex as what you describe, BUT it is still consistent with what the creator created. I don't have a problem with that....if I demanded that Lex Luthor be handled the way Edmond Hamilton handled him, I would go crazy. By recognizing that different creators are going to put their spin on characters I enjoy more stories. The other thing I have had to recognize is who the audience is. The Thanos you describe sounds awesome for you and me, but I don't know if it would work in a comic aimed at a younger audience.
    I am committed to the idea that any work of art should be judged on its own merit, not on the behavior or beliefs of its author.

  8. #128
    Oblio Kurt Busiek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brice View Post
    No problem. Here's the convo, if you're curious https://mobile.twitter.com/kurtbusie...70433915101184

    If it were at play, Thor would have killed him. That and nobody brings it up in the entire comic.
    No, if Thor used magic on Superman, the magic would work on Superman.

    And Superman would escalate his power use too.

    Who would win? Well, that would take a second fight to see.

    *

    The magic weakness wasn't "absent" -- it simply didn't come into play, because Thor's initial instinct on fighting someone big and strong isn't "I'll use one of the hammer's magical aspects." He works up to that, if it's needed. Generally, he uses physical attacks for a while -- and the hammer is a physical attack, not a magical one. It can generate magical attacks, but just smacking someone with it is not a magical attack.

    So Thor would have had to realize that Superman's tough enough that he's gotta get fancy. He didn't get that far, this time.

    Similarly, Superman doesn't tend to use his superspeed right away in a fight. If Thor started firing blasts of magical energy from the hammer, Superman would start using the superspeed more so as not to be hit. He didn't have to in this fight, so it didn't come up.

    Both of them have power sets that they don't use fully in fights against strangers, unless the fight progresses to the point where they realize they need to.

    kdb
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  9. #129
    Fantastic Member Wall-Crawler's Avatar
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    Kurt Busiek himself ladies and gentlemen

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurt Busiek View Post
    No, if Thor used magic on Superman, the magic would work on Superman.

    And Superman would escalate his power use too.

    Who would win? Well, that would take a second fight to see.

    *

    The magic weakness wasn't "absent" -- it simply didn't come into play, because Thor's initial instinct on fighting someone big and strong isn't "I'll use one of the hammer's magical aspects." He works up to that, if it's needed. Generally, he uses physical attacks for a while -- and the hammer is a physical attack, not a magical one. It can generate magical attacks, but just smacking someone with it is not a magical attack.

    So Thor would have had to realize that Superman's tough enough that he's gotta get fancy. He didn't get that far, this time.

    Similarly, Superman doesn't tend to use his superspeed right away in a fight. If Thor started firing blasts of magical energy from the hammer, Superman would start using the superspeed more so as not to be hit. He didn't have to in this fight, so it didn't come up.

    Both of them have power sets that they don't use fully in fights against strangers, unless the fight progresses to the point where they realize they need to.

    kdb
    Fair enough. Thank you for the reply, Mr Busiek! You've explained it much better than I could and I got nothing more to add.

    Though just to clarify, I didn't mean that the magic weakness was completely non-existent. Thor could no doubt exploit it if he wanted or needed to. But he did no such thing in this particular fight -- he went for physical attacks instead. And that's my point. Thor can go blow for blow with one of DC's physically strongest characters without needing to 'cheat' and exploit a weakness. Personally, I enjoyed the crossover quite a lot for many reasons -- this is one of them.

    I've seen some argue (not in this forum) that Thor lost despite using the magic weakness. I guess you could call this a pre-emptive debunk, haha.

  11. #131
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    Lets be honest the reason Superman wins crossover fights is popularity. There is no going around that, the outcome of the fights are pre-deterimend and it's up to the writer to lay the foundation of how it happens and they do as good of a job as they can from all the crossovers i have seen. So not taking anything away from Superman as i always saw him as a good medium between guys like Hulk and Thor, he is not as powerful as Thor but more powerful than Hulk, he is not as strong as Hulk but stronger than Thor. And considerably more faster than either when he needs to be. But the thing is we would never see Superman beating either due to speed alone, he is gonna beat them on their terms which is what always irked me about these fights and stuff like Thors magic and more powerful abilities like God blast or thermal blast we never get to see or Hulk growing with anger exponentially until he overpowers Superman completely, those things are ignored.

    Anyway, anyone see the Tarot #1 from Alan Davis? Thor seems to be brainwashed into fighting Hulk. These 2 have to be the longest running effective rivalry out of any comic book heroes, still wish they would team up more rather than fight each other.
    Last edited by Intothevoid; 01-06-2020 at 05:34 AM.

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wall-Crawler View Post
    Kurt Busiek himself ladies and gentlemen
    And there's no arguing with that

  13. #133
    Fantastic Member Alphaxman's Avatar
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    I like Thor... I really do. And I enjoyed this latest series to an extent, but I just can't with all the recons and ragnarok cycles. I just kept thinking as I read it, 'This isn't the first time Thor was king', so Loki's digs fell on deaf ears. But I'll give it a change. I always do. I'm just glad Aaron is done.

    As for the supporting characters, I like that his two "brothers" are also kings, Loki, king of the frost giants and Balder, king or the Norns. (By the way, exactly what does that mean? I never understood who the Norns were other than the three destiny-fate goddess. Who were Karnilla's people and how were they different from Aesir and Vanir? Are they closer to humans? Will Balder just be king of three who live at the base of Yggdrasil?

    As for Lady Sif, I curiously optimistic. I just hope she's not stuck on the Rainbow Bridge waiting to give sage advice to Thor as Heimdall did.

    With the whole Galactus stuff. I'm used to him being a joke now so whatever. The last thing done to him that was any good was when Ewing made him the Lifebringer. Now his back to his jobbing self.

  14. #134
    Mighty Member GodThor's Avatar
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    a variant for chapter 4


  15. #135
    Mighty Member GodThor's Avatar
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    btw, just saw this for Valkyrie #4

    THE FALL OF ALL-FATHER THOR!

    Valkyrie and Thor have discovered a vast and terrible secret buried deep in the Earth, one that has haunted Asgard for eons. The Røkkva, a magic older than the gods, has broken free from its long prison. And one man seeks to turn it to his own gain. He just needs to get rid of Valkyrie first — and what better way than at the hands of Thor?!
    I guess Jane will fight Thor who is amped by Power Cosmic...

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