Thor Odinson: God of Thunder Appreciation 2020

[Alpha to Omega]

And compared to the myths, Thor who crossdresses as a woman to get back Sif's hair, whose wife ends up shtupping Loki anyway...the MCU is still more dignified.

Your knowledge of Norse mythology is lacking. Thor didn’t crossdress to get Sif’s hair back, he threatened Loki into getting Dwarves to make her replacement hair out of gold, which lead to series of events that ended up with the Aesir getting multiple gifts including Mjolnir, Gungnir and Sif’s hair at the low, low price of Loki getting his lips sewn shut.

Thor did crossdress as a bride in one myth but it was to get back Mjolnir after a Jotun stole it and the actual goddess the giant wanted to marry as ransom for the hammer refused. And Thor ends up killing every giant at the wedding as soon as he gets Mjolnir back.

As for Sif sleeping with Loki, thats from the myth where Loki basically trolls all the gods at a dinner by making various claims (the truthfulness of them is vague) while they try to calm him down, Thor is notably absent when this is going on but when he arrives Loki leaves as he basically says Thor alone among the Aesir would actually strike him rather than just make threats.

[CaptainMar-Vell92 of the Kree]

Your knowledge of Norse mythology is lacking. Thor didn’t crossdress to get Sif’s hair back, he threatened Loki into getting Dwarves to make her replacement hair out of gold, which lead to series of events that ended up with the Aesir getting multiple gifts including Mjolnir, Gungnir and Sif’s hair at the low, low price of Loki getting his lips sewn shut.

Thor did crossdress as a bride in one myth but it was to get back Mjolnir after a Jotun stole it and the actual goddess the giant wanted to marry as ransom for the hammer refused. And Thor ends up killing every giant at the wedding as soon as he gets Mjolnir back.

As for Sif sleeping with Loki, thats from the myth where Loki basically trolls all the gods at a dinner by making various claims (the truthfulness of them is vague) while they try to calm him down, Thor is notably absent when this is going on but when he arrives Loki leaves as he basically says Thor alone among the Aesir would actually strike him rather than just make threats.

So what you are saying is Fraction and Aaron were trying to capture the mythological Thor by turning Marvel Thor into a thuggish boor with a potty mouth?

[Revolutionary_Jack]

So what you are saying is Fraction and Aaron were trying to capture the mythological Thor by turning Marvel Thor into a thuggish boor with a potty mouth?

Mostly yeah. Jason Aaron's Thor is a lot closer to the mythological Thor in some ways while still being essentially different in other ways. Marvel Thor is still a more impressive figure, intellectually, ethically, and morally.

I mean in the myths there was that moment where Thor tossed two innocent dwarfs into a funeral pyre for no real reason but simply to do it.

Your knowledge of Norse mythology is lacking.

Nope. I've read the myths in different versions, whether it's the Edda as translated by Jackson Crawford or Lee Hollander, or retellings by others such as Neil Gaiman, or commentary by the likes of Tolkien.

You just interpret it differently that's all.

Thor did crossdress as a bride in one myth but it was to get back Mjolnir after a Jotun stole it and the actual goddess the giant wanted to marry as ransom for the hammer refused. And Thor ends up killing every giant at the wedding as soon as he gets Mjolnir back.

So basically without Mjolnir, Thor is nothing. IF he was really all powerful, he could have killed the Jotuns without having to dress as a bride.

As for Sif sleeping with Loki, thats from the myth where Loki basically trolls all the gods at a dinner by making various claims (the truthfulness of them is vague)

No one in the Lokasenna at any point denies or disclaims any of Loki's statements, and most scholars agree that means Loki is in fact telling the truth in that moment.

[Alpha to Omega]

No one in the Lokasenna at any point denies or disclaims any of Loki's statements, and most scholars agree that means Loki is in fact telling the truth in that moment.

Except Freyja does claim Loki is lying.

[Frontier]

I don't really care for fidelity to the myths as much as I do for Thor's established characterization. I care even less for the stupid hammer at this point.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I don't really care for fidelity to the myths as much as I do for Thor's established characterization. I care even less for the stupid hammer at this point.

Well the fact that Thor is sourced from a public domain mythology, one which was obscure for most of the last milennium until the revival in the last 200 years or so, does mean that writers who come to Thor have the option to draw from a wider sense of references than 616 Marvel. You can't do that with any other Marvel character. There isn't really a Spider-Man or X-Men outside the Marvel continuity except for the adaptations and AU which are themselves patterned or derived from the source.

Remember the original plan for Jack Kirby was to have the Asgardians experience Ragnarok and in the wake of that he would introduce the New Gods i.e. Orion, Darkseid, Highfather to replace them. So Kirby himself was guided by the myths as is apparent in the Tales of Asgard series.

The Norse Myths that survive are essentially fragmentary and incomplete so you can fill in how you want but the myths as we have them are rougher, more ambiguous, more enigmatic and frankly not at all heroic. The Asgardians were originally a--holes, they do not create or build anything, all their fancy tools and weapons were made either by giants, the dwarves, the elves and which they often swindled/extorted/conned into owning. Odin especially was the biggest meanest SOB of them all. One of his many names was Bolverkr (Evil-Doer). Taika Waititi's Thor Ragnarok and Jason Aaron's run offer a far more consisent and mythologically faithful version of Odin than the one you have in the stories before. To be absolutely honest, Ragnarok isn't some great tragedy so much as seeing a bunch of a--holes get their just deserts and long delayed comeuppance.

Thor generally comes across better than others but even he has moments like tossing innocent dwarfs into a funeral pyre.

None of this is to say that Marvel 616 needs to hew closer to the myths and so on, but at the same time those myths are the reason why Marvel chose Thor (because Lee-Kirby wanted to avoid the overexposed Greek pantheon) and those myths still have a popularity and influence as witness Neil Gaiman's American Gods, the TV series, among many others, and writers can draw from that well to inform and refine the characters.

[Panic]

But all of that is just an excuse to write Thor and other Asgardians as being ***-holes. Thor is a hero to most in this thread, and we care about how the character and his supporting cast are portrayed. Aaron was selective in who he targeted with this stuff, and he changed characters to fit his whims. Jane is established in Lee/Kirby as being too wimpy to wield the powers of a god and fight evil, but Aaron was fine with giving her positive development; Thor and Odin, on the other hand, get negative development. This is not a total shocker, however, as it is in line with how a dominant culture tends to portray other cultures in their heroic fiction, with the powerful male figures depicted as less socially and morally advanced, and the females rejecting them for the culture hero of the writer. In this case there is a certain amount of cultural appropriation, too. Or at least that is how I see it.

[Frontier]

I think it's pretty well-established by now that the Thor of the comics has crafted his own original version of the mythos and characters from the Norse myths.

[GodThor]

I think it's pretty well-established by now that the Thor of the comics has crafted his own original version of the mythos and characters from the Norse myths.

this LOL.

I don't care if it goes well with the myth or not.

[BBally]

An interesting video I found about the sales figures of Jason Aaron's run on Thor.



Note: This guy is not part of the ComicsGate Youtubers, in fact he openly criticized the CG community for its use of click baitey titles and overexaggerated claims in some of his videos.

[themarkus]

Mostly yeah. Jason Aaron's Thor is a lot closer to the mythological Thor in some ways while still being essentially different in other ways. Marvel Thor is still a more impressive figure, intellectually, ethically, and morally.

I mean in the myths there was that moment where Thor tossed two innocent dwarfs into a funeral pyre for no real reason but simply to do it.

I will agree with you here that Aaron's Thor is closer to the Myth than the Superhero in major ways. In others, mainly his ability to handle hardships, the stories we do have about Thor paints him in a different light than being self-loathing and introvert and instead he handles adversity with anger and extrovert violence toward his foes.

Nope. I've read the myths in different versions, whether it's the Edda as translated by Jackson Crawford or Lee Hollander, or retellings by others such as Neil Gaiman, or commentary by the likes of Tolkien.

You just interpret it differently that's all.

Interpretations are just another word for opinions. The fact that yours is different doesn't mean that it is more true than the others. However, the more widly and common interpretations that handle the course of events you are describing is that after Loki shaves Sif's hair off it leads to the forging of many powerful items of which Mjolnir is the most powerful weapon and gift.

The story where Thor is dressed up as a woman for Laughs is because the giant Trym had stolen Mjolnir and hidden it far, deep down into the earth. Thor couldn't kill all the giants before he got the hammer because he didn't know where the hammer was. It is meant to be a joke at Thor's expense, he has to endure having all these giants flirt and degrade him, call him (thor) names and insult his courage, honor and strength to his face without being able to do anything to restore his manhood. Until Loki asks for Freyja to see the hammer (It's to be her dowry) and once the hammer comes out all the giants die.

So basically without Mjolnir, Thor is nothing. IF he was really all powerful, he could have killed the Jotuns without having to dress as a bride.

See the above response.

No one in the Lokasenna at any point denies or disclaims any of Loki's statements, and most scholars agree that means Loki is in fact telling the truth in that moment.

[/QUOTE] It is also noted that the Lokasenna perhaps should not be taken as "Canon" for whatever that means. Whether the "Sly God" is telling the truth or not is really beside the point. The story/poem doesn't portray Loki in a very good light. He's being jealous, spiteful and mean to everyone in attendance. He also murders a servant for being too good at serving so his host gets praise. The fact that nobody at the feast confronts Loki is because Loki's trying to make them break the rules of hospitality. Something the norse took very serious. None at the feast were willing to strike Loki except for Thor whose was known to not care about hospitality and willing to kill people for what was right and handling the consequences later because his anger often got the better of him. So Loki saying that the only threats he feared came from Thor was because he was banking on the others at the feast would act in a civilized manner, meaning Loki knew he could get away with being a right prick.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I will agree with you here that Aaron's Thor is closer to the Myth than the Superhero in major ways. In others, mainly his ability to handle hardships, the stories we do have about Thor paints him in a different light than being self-loathing and introvert and instead he handles adversity with anger and extrovert violence toward his foes.

Marvel Thor and Aaron Thor in general has greater interiority than Mythology!Thor. So that means that Thor does think, reflect, doubt, and second guess and Aaron had to establish that Thor always did have doubts about worthiness and living up to the calling of a god.

Look on the bright side, sure Thor is more "emo" for lack of a better word, but at least it's no longer true, and certainly not in Aaron's run, that Loki is more interesting than Thor. Aaron's run had little room for Loki and he generally didn't get a lot of the big moments to outshine Thor as he did in other runs, and Aaron introduced a villain like Gorr who was solely and uniquely a villain for Thor with no connection, reference, or relation to Loki unlike say Hela (daughter to Loki), Fenrir, or Jormungandr.

It is also noted that the Lokasenna perhaps should not be taken as "Canon" for whatever that means.

It's in "The Poetic Edda" the main source for all Norse Mythology and nobody has ever claimed or proven that it was some later addition, so yeah it's as valid as anything else in the Poetic Edda (which includes the Lay of Volund, Voluspa, Havamal, Runatal, the Asgard stories and so on). The notion of "canon" is nonexistent with Norse Myth since we do not have any source of Norse Mythology written down by people who believe or practise it or actually saw Odin and Thor as gods.

Whether the "Sly God" is telling the truth or not is really beside the point. The story/poem doesn't portray Loki in a very good light.

Norse Myth doesn't portray any god in a good light.

Something the norse took very serious.

Thor Did They Though.jpg

The Asgardian stories we have are full of broken oaths, broken promises, fingers crossed, and so on. The Aesir are very good at holding those they disdain up to a code while never reciprocating.

[Frontier]

Marvel Thor and Aaron Thor in general has greater interiority than Mythology!Thor. So that means that Thor does think, reflect, doubt, and second guess and Aaron had to establish that Thor always did have doubts about worthiness and living up to the calling of a god.

It just didn't really make sense in terms of comic Thor.

Look on the bright side, sure Thor is more "emo" for lack of a better word, but at least it's no longer true, and certainly not in Aaron's run, that Loki is more interesting than Thor. Aaron's run had little room for Loki and he generally didn't get a lot of the big moments to outshine Thor as he did in other runs, and Aaron introduced a villain like Gorr who was solely and uniquely a villain for Thor with no connection, reference, or relation to Loki unlike say Hela (daughter to Loki), Fenrir, or Jormungandr.

We didn't need Loki for that when we had Jane Foster, and Loki's relationship to those figures very rarely figured into their enmity with Thor.

[GodThor]

An interesting video I found about the sales figures of Jason Aaron's run on Thor.



Note: This guy is not part of the ComicsGate Youtubers, in fact he openly criticized the CG community for its use of click baitey titles and overexaggerated claims in some of his videos.

Jane's run isn't really that much higher as some people are saying.

[themarkus]

Marvel Thor and Aaron Thor in general has greater interiority than Mythology!Thor. So that means that Thor does think, reflect, doubt, and second guess and Aaron had to establish that Thor always did have doubts about worthiness and living up to the calling of a god.

Look on the bright side, sure Thor is more "emo" for lack of a better word, but at least it's no longer true, and certainly not in Aaron's run, that Loki is more interesting than Thor. Aaron's run had little room for Loki and he generally didn't get a lot of the big moments to outshine Thor as he did in other runs, and Aaron introduced a villain like Gorr who was solely and uniquely a villain for Thor with no connection, reference, or relation to Loki unlike say Hela (daughter to Loki), Fenrir, or Jormungandr.

It's in "The Poetic Edda" the main source for all Norse Mythology and nobody has ever claimed or proven that it was some later addition, so yeah it's as valid as anything else in the Poetic Edda (which includes the Lay of Volund, Voluspa, Havamal, Runatal, the Asgard stories and so on). The notion of "canon" is nonexistent with Norse Myth since we do not have any source of Norse Mythology written down by people who believe or practise it or actually saw Odin and Thor as gods.

Lee M. Hollander, in his introduction to his translation of the poem, claims that it was in no sense a popular lay and suggests we should not necessarily believe that the accusations of the "sly god" were an accepted part of the lore. - Cited from Wikipedia, simple search. Yes it was IN the Edda, but what Loki says in it shouldn't be treated as truths as Loki is known to be a liar and an unreliable narrator.

Norse Myth doesn't portray any god in a good light.

Yes they did.

Thor Did They Though.jpg

Yes they did. But they are also humans. But they are ideals for which Norsemen strived to emulate.

The Asgardian stories we have are full of broken oaths, broken promises, fingers crossed, and so on. The Aesir are very good at holding those they disdain up to a code while never reciprocating.

Now we're starting to blur the lines of the argument here. The people who told those stories, as many people today. Hold that virtues of Hospitality, generosity, honour, courage etc are virtues. HOWEVER as humans do (and in the prose) if you can find a loophole in the rules that can validate you because being "clever and witty" was another trait that the norse thought were good virtues, hence why they revered Gods like Odin or Loki. The poem of the Lokasenna depicts this fairly well. Loki knows that the other gods (apart from Thor) will tolerate him just running his mouth because even as they have thrown him out of the party, he's Odin's blood brother and they MUST honour that oath. Bragi's attempt to placate Loki is met with scorn and ridicule (not to mention Bragi says at first "Had I not been in Aegir's house, I'd have your head in my hand". So yeah they did care about hospitality.

Also, it is assumed that the Lokasenna is a late addition to the Edda, ca 13th century. Meaning in it, Loki has changed from being sort of a trickster god into a more satan-like individual due to Christian influences. It also, in some instances, is assumed to lead to Loki being captured by the other Aesir and put into torment.