Thor Odinson: God of Thunder Appreciation 2020

[K7P5V]

Kurt Busiek himself ladies and gentlemen

And there's no arguing with that

To the utmost, I agree.

[pugbuddy]

btw, just saw this for Valkyrie #4



I guess Jane will fight Thor who is amped by Power Cosmic...

And with Aaron writing it, we can expect yet another Thor humiliation....

[Ichijinijisanji]

thor .

[JackDaw]

And with Aaron writing it, we can expect yet another Thor humiliation....

I suppose you can never discount a character winning in her own comic...but it ought to be near impossible for Jane to win.

But...on medical advice..I won’t be reading that comic, the doc fears effect on my blood pressure.

[oldschoolfan]

Fair enough. Thank you for the reply, Mr Busiek! You've explained it much better than I could and I got nothing more to add.

Though just to clarify, I didn't mean that the magic weakness was completely non-existent. Thor could no doubt exploit it if he wanted or needed to. But he did no such thing in this particular fight -- he went for physical attacks instead. And that's my point. Thor can go blow for blow with one of DC's physically strongest characters without needing to 'cheat' and exploit a weakness. Personally, I enjoyed the crossover quite a lot for many reasons -- this is one of them.

I've seen some argue (not in this forum) that Thor lost despite using the magic weakness. I guess you could call this a pre-emptive debunk, haha.

Okay, I remember Thor and Superman confronting one another in JLA/Avengers.....but is this something that happened in DC vs Marvel? Cause I am not remembering it.....sorry....but this conversation was interesting.

[Hypestyle]

with the new cosmic context. I wonder how long it will last? Will Thor go back to being without an eye and the robot arm?

[Frontier]

And with Aaron writing it, we can expect yet another Thor humiliation....

To be honest, while I was concerned with Thor vs. Jane conceptually to begin with, the preview showing a non-Valkyrie Jane Foster facing down Thor did little to assuage my fears.

[Wall-Crawler]

Fair enough. Thank you for the reply, Mr Busiek! You've explained it much better than I could and I got nothing more to add.

Though just to clarify, I didn't mean that the magic weakness was completely non-existent. Thor could no doubt exploit it if he wanted or needed to. But he did no such thing in this particular fight -- he went for physical attacks instead. And that's my point. Thor can go blow for blow with one of DC's physically strongest characters without needing to 'cheat' and exploit a weakness. Personally, I enjoyed the crossover quite a lot for many reasons -- this is one of them.

I've seen some argue (not in this forum) that Thor lost despite using the magic weakness. I guess you could call this a pre-emptive debunk, haha.

Not just because he is here, but JLA/Avengers is easily the best big-two (Marvel & DC) crossover and an excellent read.

[Kurt Busiek]

Lets be honest the reason Superman wins crossover fights is popularity. There is no going around that, the outcome of the fights are pre-deterimend and it's up to the writer to lay the foundation of how it happens and they do as good of a job as they can from all the crossovers i have seen.

Nobody predetermined any fights in JLA/AVENGERS.

They went the way the creative team thought best, with the approval of the editors, and the editors were fine with what we suggested.

The one power-related change requested by any editor was a minor bit where I had Aquaman do something in a fight (I don't remember what any more), and both Tom Brevoort and Bad Dan Raspler told me they didn't think Aquaman was that strong. I didn't fully agree with them, but I replotted the bit so that the question of Aquaman's strength did not come into play.

There were other editorial changes, of course, but none of 'em about fights.

kdb

[Intothevoid]

Nobody predetermined any fights in JLA/AVENGERS.

They went the way the creative team thought best, with the approval of the editors, and the editors were fine with what we suggested.

The one power-related change requested by any editor was a minor bit where I had Aquaman do something in a fight (I don't remember what any more), and both Tom Brevoort and Bad Dan Raspler told me they didn't think Aquaman was that strong. I didn't fully agree with them, but I replotted the bit so that the question of Aquaman's strength did not come into play.

There were other editorial changes, of course, but none of 'em about fights.

kdb

Well can't argue with that.

Thanks for the input.

[Paradox_Nihil]

Not just because he is here, but JLA/Avengers is easily the best big-two (Marvel & DC) crossover and an excellent read.

No, X-Men/New Teen Titans is the best crossover of Marvel and DC, even more easily, although JLA/Avengers may very well come second. There was no real fight between the teams (though some members distrusted each other at the beginning and acted rushly), and some concepts went on to become foundations of the DC universe. Which is somewhat ironic, considering that the comic book was created at Marvel.

[CaptainMar-Vell92 of the Kree]

When Thanos gathered the infinity gems, he dumped all over the Elders of the Universe, from their intelligence to their basic concept.

When anyone acted around Thanos, they instantly became dumber, to the point that Cap led all the heroes into an ambush during Infinity War.

Thanos isn't a mary sue under Starlin? Then name me a time that Thanos has been outsmarted, or overpowered, or outfought as written by Starlin. He wrote Thanos as going toe to toe with an enhanced Thor and Odin in the same damn story.

Starlin is Thanos' pet and he's stepped over plenty of characters, including Thor, to make that happen.

Oh ****. Here we go again.

And as for Starlin replacing Thanos with nothing: Thanos story arc ended. The character doesn't have anything more to say. Heck, Starlin gave Thanos like 3 endings in Infinity Gauntlet, The End and Infinity Finale. Sometimes there are western comic characters that need a definitive ending like shonen manga characters. Like Cowboy Bebop's ending or not, it ENDED. That gives the events of the whole thing weight. Or Gravitas if you wanna sound fancy. The problem is that 1-)Marvel's top guys could not create another good heavyweight space villain to replace him, and 2-) They started to see Thanos as their own Darkseid after the success of Gauntlet.

And Starlin wrote Thanos as Mary Sue character? Wut? There are a lot of instances where Starlin wrote Thanos as a humble character who was also humiliated both physically and mentally. And same goes for a lot of other writers. I mean, what the hell? The guy who had him wreck the Avengers (Hickman) also wrote him as a guy who proved to be inferior to his son Thane. That's Mary Sue?

When he absorbed the Heart of the Universe and became Omnipotent in Marvel: The End, he couldn't save the Universe despite the fact that he was, well, Omnipotent. While he overpowered every single being in the Marvel Universe, it's pretty clear that Thanos was desperate in this instance, which is pretty ironic when you think about it considering the fact that he became the God. At the end of the story, Thanos actually sacrificed himself by recreating the Marvel Universe and curing it from so called "cancer" (heroes and villains keep coming back to life).

Similar thing happened in Thanos Quest, when Thanos assembled the Infinity Gauntlet, yet Death still refused to speak to him. At the end of that story we actually see that, despite the fact that he became the most powerful beings in Marvel Universe, Death still did not accept Thanos. He actually said that he could make her do whatever he wants, but he wants her genuine love, and if he takes it by force, it's not the real thing. And at the end of the story we actually see Thanos shedding a tear, which is once again, pretty ironic considering the fact that he surpassed pretty much every being in the Marvel Universe. And this is the same issue where Thanos admitted that the Runner got the best of him based on both his dialogue and facial expression and agreed to provide the information he wanted (although Thanos defeated the Runner in this same issue, using the Time Gem at the end, so take that as you wish).

In the seventies, Thanos was defeated by Mar-Vell who smashed his Cosmic Cube after Thanos let himself being provoked by Rick Jones calling him a chicken for not fighting Mar directly, and then was killed by Adam Warlock, who turned him into stone. During his first solo series, he was almost killed by Galactus and needed his help to defeat the Hunger entity.

Those are not the only instances where Thanos was either defeated and/or humiliated in some way. He was overpowered by the likes of Odin, Tyrant and the Omega Thanosi in Warlock and the Infinity Watch Vol. 1 #25, Cosmic Powers #6 and Infinity Abyss #6 respectively (although the former two had a hard time putting him down which is impressive durability showing for Thanos). All those issues plus the ones already mentioned above were written by Jim Starlin and Ron Marz. See, there are a handful of instances when Starlin wrote Thanos as anything but "Mary Sue character". I mean, Starlin is the one who created Thanos, and he was created to be a powerful threat. In his first appearance, he wrecked Drax the Destroyer which destroyed the planet as a side effect (Iron-man Vol. 1 #55), and throughout most of his appearances he was introduced as a Teambuster, capable of wrecking Heralds like Surfer and teams like the Avengers composed of powerhouses like Hulk and Thor. And yet despite all that, Starlin had Thanos humiliated, defeated, overpowered and helpless more than once, even in an extremely ironic instances when he literally became God. Just because he wrecks popular and powerful characters, holds his own against Gods and has plan for pretty much everything does not make him a Mary Sue character. He is just a smart Teambuster. I mean, if he is Mary Sue, we might as well say that Ultron, Apocalypse, Mangog and other seemingly unbeatable villains who were stopped only thanks to deus ex machina are Mary Sue as well, especially because Thanos has more bad showings than these characters (not in terms of feats but in terms of introduction), as I've mentione above, all written by Starlin. And that's not even mentioning the other instances where he was depicted as nothing but a hopeless suitor to Death, showing signs of emotional weakness every time he is close to her and overall just looking pathetic. Or when his ultimate power was taken away from him more than once, like Cosmic Cube and the Infinity Gauntlet (although it was later confirmed by Vision and Warlock that he lost those powers, or at least the Infinity Gems only because he unconsciously wanted to, but still, he knew humility and defeat).

I just want to say that, if any writer made Thanos interesting, it's Starlin. Under Starlin Thanos showed he actually has an interesting character, who is more than being powerful and evil, and actually has some human characteristics. Starlin's Thanos was actually respectful, philosophical, reasonable and sometimes even heroic. He cares about Adam Warlock and Gamora as shown in the Gauntlet sequels, even if he's unable to be more nice about it. His intelligence may be called a plot device but same can be said for Doctor Doom and Batman.

Aside from Starlin, most of Marvel writers (with a few exceptions) think Thanos is this creepy guy who wrecks and kills everybody without a second thought, like he is a cosmic satan. In other words, Marvel staff and casual fans thinks he is just Marvel's version of Darkseid, while Starlin's Thanos is a completely different character with no similarities to Darkseid aside from appearance (Thanos wasn't even based off of Darkseid but another New God called Metron). While Thanos' most impressive feats can be found in Starlin's books, same can be said for instances where he has been humiliated.

As for the Elders, they have shown in their previous appearances to be overly confident and unaware of the true potential of the infinity gems. So i have no issue with Thanos using their pride to defeat them.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Oh ****. Here we go again.



As for the Elders, they have shown in their previous appearances to be overly confident and unaware of the true potential of the infinity gems. So i have no issue with Thanos using their pride to defeat them.

Yes, ancient cosmic beings managed to all gather the infinity gems and have no clue whatsoever about how to use them.

Also they're not really immortal, just really old.

So yeah, Starlin dumped on the characters and concept for his pet.

Again, name me a time when someone other than Thanos, defeats Thanos, under Starlin. And no, Nebula does not count

[Cronus]

I personally have no issues with that fight. Superman won yes, but it was a hard fought victory which left him too exhausted to defend himself from a pissed off team of Avengers. Aquaman had to save his bacon. He confirms yet again a few issues later that he barely won. Thor himself later believes he could beat the Krytonian in a rematch, due to having his measure now.

The dialogue certainly indicated everything you say, but is belied by how quickly Thor was knocked out. Superman claimed "he may be the toughest opponent" doesn't add up when the fight ended so quickly. Both Thor and Superman have had fights that lasted longer than the one they had so...

Years later (in 2017) Busiek clarified on Twitter that the magic weakness was not at play here. Thor going blow to blow with DC's physically strongest League member -- without exploiting his vulnerabilities -- is definitely not a knock against him.

I never figured that it would be? I mean anymore than Shazam engaging in fisticuffs with Clark should be.

It's still far better than the way he is being treated these days.

True that. Fans wanted the fight to end in a way that showed a winner. Superman fans have a far larger fan base.

Shooter refused to accept the script because the premise was extremely nonsensical and chock-full of OOC moments. I don't think it had anything to do with Superman vs Thor. Read all about it here: jimshooter.com/2011/07/secret-origin-and-gooey-death-of_21.html/

Thank you! I will check it out!

Edit: as far as writer interpretation of character's level of power, I appreciate it when writer's make an obvious attempt to research these things. But there are no industry standards in place for this kind of thing. As I mention above, Clark has the larger fan base. I can remember reading letter columns in Superman books (post Crisis) where fans weren't exactly thrilled with "Byrne era" Superman. Guess what? Clark got a power up thereafter. Superman is a big part of DC's bread and butter; fans complain, things get done. With Thor? Eh, he gets the **** end of the stick more often than not.

Continuing with writer interpretations, Kevin Grevioux thinks Thor should be stronger than Superman or Hulk. Wasn't it Jurgens that said something similar regarding Thor and Clark? I'll see if I can find the quote...

2nd Edit, 'kay so...evidently (mileage may vary on the source for this information) Jurgens said magic from Thor should've won the fight for Thor, but otherwise Superman was millions of times more powerful than Thor. If you factor in pre Crisis Superman I could maybe see that. Post Crisis, definitely not going by each character's best feats.

At any rate, my point is writer opinions vary regarding power levels for the heavy weights as do fan perspectives on the same. For my part, I'm a purist I guess? Stan made Thor "a god" in an effort to eclipse his other previously collaborated creations, including Marvel's poster boy for superhuman strength, the Hulk.

[HaveAtThee]

The dialogue certainly indicated everything you say, but is belied by how quickly Thor was knocked out. Superman claimed "he may be the toughest opponent" doesn't add up when the fight ended so quickly. Both Thor and Superman have had fights that lasted longer than the one they had so...



I never figured that it would be? I mean anymore than Shazam engaging in fisticuffs with Clark should be.



True that. Fans wanted the fight to end in a way that showed a winner. Superman fans have a far larger fan base.



Thank you! I will check it out!

Edit: as far as writer interpretation of character's level of power, I appreciate it when writer's make an obvious attempt to research these things. But there are no industry standards in place for this kind of thing. As I mention above, Clark has the larger fan base. I can remember reading letter columns in Superman books (post Crisis) where fans weren't exactly thrilled with "Byrne era" Superman. Guess what? Clark got a power up thereafter. Superman is a big part of DC's bread and butter; fans complain, things get done. With Thor? Eh, he gets the **** end of the stick more often than not.

Continuing with writer interpretations, Kevin Grevioux thinks Thor should be stronger than Superman or Hulk. Wasn't it Jurgens that said something similar regarding Thor and Clark? I'll see if I can find the quote...

2nd Edit, 'kay so...evidently (mileage may vary on the source for this information) Jurgens said magic from Thor should've won the fight for Thor, but otherwise Superman was millions of times more powerful than Thor. If you factor in pre Crisis Superman I could maybe see that. Post Crisis, definitely not going by each character's best feats.

At any rate, my point is writer opinions vary regarding power levels for the heavy weights as do fan perspectives on the same. For my part, I'm a purist I guess? Stan made Thor "a god" in an effort to eclipse his other previously collaborated creations, including Marvel's poster boy for superhuman strength, the Hulk.

I wouldn't get too wrapped up into power levels. Editorial discipline went by the wayside around the time of the late 80s and into the 90s so things like this became ever more reliant on the writer's whim.