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  1. #1771
    Kinky Lil' Canine Snoop Dogg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ichijinijisanji View Post
    I don't think antiforce is related to the negative zone or antimatter
    It just appears to be some sort of force. He used it i think first in thor 142? (correct me if im wrong) to bfr super skrull and then I think the biggest application was mangogg and thanos

    But it should be somewhat more unique than just another big blast. Part of the problem is redundancy. What's one big blast compared to another? Why use antiforce to bfr instead of powerful winds? Why use antiforce or the magnetic energy of a planet thing instead of Godblast? This is why those things have fallen out of common use in part.
    are you implying that thor standing still and holding a hammer while the hammer shoots a generic laser is less interesting than literally anything else he can do

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  2. #1772
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I think it's definitely accurate that Marvel Studios didn't quite know what to do with Thor. Frankly, I'm still not convinced they know what to do with Thor. Even between Infinity War and Endgame he feels like a completely different character.
    I agree, they don't really seem to know what to do with him even now....but he's fallen into the GotG mold and that seemed to do well so I think that's the position they've settled on for him....even if it's not really Thor-like. And they literally had to destroy his entire mythos to get him there.

    I mean, if you're fine with the more comedic bent, Thor with the Guardians works but that just doesn't do it for me personally. I got enough of that with their revamp of the Guardians to begin with. I hope he's not in Vol. 3.
    I dunno if I'd say I'm "fine" with the comedic bent so much as I've just accepted that this is who MCU Thor has become, and I don't think the previous takes were good enough to lament their loss.

    I'd much rather have an epic, Shakespearean, mythical Thor who resembles the Thor I know from myth and/or comics. But I never got that in the films, even when they were half-assed trying to do it, and at least Guardian Thor is fun and entertaining, yknow?

    As a funny aside....before the first film hit, I really wanted Karl Urban for Thor. It's a sad kind of ironic that I finally got him in Thor.....but as someone else, and just in time to watch Asgard burn.

    Quote Originally Posted by kilderkin View Post
    I really felt the big problem with her solo film, once she got her powers, was that they didn't challenge her, the villains and thereat were subpar imo, she wasn't really challenged in endgame either , given how she has been described I'm not sure how they are gonna fix that, coz as far as her being interesting, plot wise power wise, that's gonna hit hard too often for me
    I think, given the nature of both narratives, we shouldn't worry about Carol being challenged.....yet.

    Her solo film, the challenge was emotional and mental; when she finally unlocks her powers that's not supposed to be a fight, it's a victory lap. It'd go against the themes of the film for her to discover her "real/true power" only to still struggle (against her male antagonists). And Endgame just gave her a big "Superman" moment where she gets to save the day and smash the opposition with near impunity....which falls in nicely with the fanservice "you waited ten years for this" mentality of the entire film.

    So, thus far, I'm cool with Carol steamrolling her foes. The films she's been in, the roles she's had in the story, that's how it *should* go. But in future appearances I expect to see her get her ass kicked before rising up and overcoming her foes like a proper action hero should. The mental challenges are past, the fanservice moments are past, let's see her bleed a little bit! And there's tons of threats out there Marvel could use, especially now that they've got the Fox IP's back.

    I'm not worried about there being threats capable of challenging Carol, there's plenty. My real concern is Marvel being able to actually write it well; the only times I've felt like the MCU captured a high-level powerhouse properly was under the Russo's....who don't think they can write high-level powerhouses.
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  3. #1773
    Astonishing Member K7P5V's Avatar
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    Advertisement for Walt Simonson's Thor. A new direction which was needed at the time:

    Last edited by K7P5V; 07-04-2020 at 11:46 PM. Reason: Corrected Grammatical Errors.

  4. #1774
    Saoirse Ronan The Accuser CaptainMar-Vell92 of the Kree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I agree, they don't really seem to know what to do with him even now....but he's fallen into the GotG mold and that seemed to do well so I think that's the position they've settled on for him....even if it's not really Thor-like. And they literally had to destroy his entire mythos to get him there.



    I dunno if I'd say I'm "fine" with the comedic bent so much as I've just accepted that this is who MCU Thor has become, and I don't think the previous takes were good enough to lament their loss.

    I'd much rather have an epic, Shakespearean, mythical Thor who resembles the Thor I know from myth and/or comics. But I never got that in the films, even when they were half-assed trying to do it, and at least Guardian Thor is fun and entertaining, yknow?

    As a funny aside....before the first film hit, I really wanted Karl Urban for Thor. It's a sad kind of ironic that I finally got him in Thor.....but as someone else, and just in time to watch Asgard burn.



    I think, given the nature of both narratives, we shouldn't worry about Carol being challenged.....yet.

    Her solo film, the challenge was emotional and mental; when she finally unlocks her powers that's not supposed to be a fight, it's a victory lap. It'd go against the themes of the film for her to discover her "real/true power" only to still struggle (against her male antagonists). And Endgame just gave her a big "Superman" moment where she gets to save the day and smash the opposition with near impunity....which falls in nicely with the fanservice "you waited ten years for this" mentality of the entire film.

    So, thus far, I'm cool with Carol steamrolling her foes. The films she's been in, the roles she's had in the story, that's how it *should* go. But in future appearances I expect to see her get her ass kicked before rising up and overcoming her foes like a proper action hero should. The mental challenges are past, the fanservice moments are past, let's see her bleed a little bit! And there's tons of threats out there Marvel could use, especially now that they've got the Fox IP's back.

    I'm not worried about there being threats capable of challenging Carol, there's plenty. My real concern is Marvel being able to actually write it well; the only times I've felt like the MCU captured a high-level powerhouse properly was under the Russo's....who don't think they can write high-level powerhouses.
    They made the Kree so evil and goth tinged, i'm surprised they didn't show a family of them eating roasted babies at Christmas.
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  5. #1775
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I agree, they don't really seem to know what to do with him even now....but he's fallen into the GotG mold and that seemed to do well so I think that's the position they've settled on for him....even if it's not really Thor-like. And they literally had to destroy his entire mythos to get him there.
    And as a fan, I just can't get into that.
    I dunno if I'd say I'm "fine" with the comedic bent so much as I've just accepted that this is who MCU Thor has become, and I don't think the previous takes were good enough to lament their loss.

    I'd much rather have an epic, Shakespearean, mythical Thor who resembles the Thor I know from myth and/or comics. But I never got that in the films, even when they were half-assed trying to do it, and at least Guardian Thor is fun and entertaining, yknow?

    As a funny aside....before the first film hit, I really wanted Karl Urban for Thor. It's a sad kind of ironic that I finally got him in Thor.....but as someone else, and just in time to watch Asgard burn.
    I think we got that in the first Thor movie, but I feel like people really underrate that film as an MCU solo film.

    I mean, sure the current Thor can be funny and entertaining...but when he feels so out-of-character and making him out to be more of a buffoon or a comedy figure, it just bothers the heck out of me. That's just not who the character is. You may as well just call him Hercules now.

    It's what Hemsworth and the current creators want, which I guess is better from a film perspective, but I still want more of this Thor:



    I think, given the nature of both narratives, we shouldn't worry about Carol being challenged.....yet.

    Her solo film, the challenge was emotional and mental; when she finally unlocks her powers that's not supposed to be a fight, it's a victory lap. It'd go against the themes of the film for her to discover her "real/true power" only to still struggle (against her male antagonists). And Endgame just gave her a big "Superman" moment where she gets to save the day and smash the opposition with near impunity....which falls in nicely with the fanservice "you waited ten years for this" mentality of the entire film.
    Starforce had a token girl. Let's not forget (even though she was dead after her ten minutes of screentime) .

    So, thus far, I'm cool with Carol steamrolling her foes. The films she's been in, the roles she's had in the story, that's how it *should* go. But in future appearances I expect to see her get her ass kicked before rising up and overcoming her foes like a proper action hero should. The mental challenges are past, the fanservice moments are past, let's see her bleed a little bit! And there's tons of threats out there Marvel could use, especially now that they've got the Fox IP's back.

    I'm not worried about there being threats capable of challenging Carol, there's plenty. My real concern is Marvel being able to actually write it well; the only times I've felt like the MCU captured a high-level powerhouse properly was under the Russo's....who don't think they can write high-level powerhouses.
    I still think they've set the bar and expectation high with Carol's current power level that it's going to be hard to scale threats to her unless they keep getting bigger, and bigger with her or scale her back just a tad.

  6. #1776
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    And as a fan, I just can't get into that.
    Can't blame you. Just because I threw my hands up and said "Fine, if this is what you got, fine" doesn't mean it's the proper response.

    I think we got that in the first Thor movie, but I feel like people really underrate that film as an MCU solo film.

    It's what Hemsworth and the current creators want, which I guess is better from a film perspective, but I still want more of this Thor:
    I think the first movie *tried* to give us this, and I think it some places it did...but I think most of the time it held itself back to its own detriment. I mean, that final fight was a huge let down; Thor against the friggin Destroyer.....and it messed up like, two streets in a small town. Not very impressive if you ask me.

    I'm with you though; I want *that* Thor in the movies. But we didn't get it, and the guy we ended up with....at least he makes me laugh and gets in a few cool moments where he's all badass, so.....it is what it is, yknow?

    I still think they've set the bar and expectation high with Carol's current power level that it's going to be hard to scale threats to her unless they keep getting bigger, and bigger with her or scale her back just a tad.
    Eh, it seriously won't be that hard to challenge her, y'all are making this more difficult than it is. When Thanos hits her with the Stone it puts her down in one blow, so anyone powered by a Stone, or on that level, should be capable of hurting her; Vision, Wanda, Strange, Infinity War Thor.....that establishes, roughly, her limit, and it's not that hard to deal with.

    Just grab someone from cosmic Marvel; Terrax, or any of the Heralds really, Anniulus...Annihulus....the Negative Zone guy, however you spell his name, Gladiator from the Shi'ar....Kree Sentries, Korvac, a Starbrand, take your pick.

    Or just use a horde. Get the Brood, in all their endless legions, or a Kree fleet. Overwhelm Carol with numbers if a singular, legit threat is beyond Marvel's imagination.

    Just look at how hard Carol can hit, find someone who can hit that hard, and you're good to go. And the comics are full of people who can kick that much ass, including Thor himself. Power levels are only a problem if you make them one.
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  7. #1777
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I think the first movie *tried* to give us this, and I think it some places it did...but I think most of the time it held itself back to its own detriment. I mean, that final fight was a huge let down; Thor against the friggin Destroyer.....and it messed up like, two streets in a small town. Not very impressive if you ask me.

    I'm with you though; I want *that* Thor in the movies. But we didn't get it, and the guy we ended up with....at least he makes me laugh and gets in a few cool moments where he's all badass, so.....it is what it is, yknow?
    The Destroy kind of got jobbed, but I admit that scene of Thor wielding Mjolnir and wrecking it was still pretty epic .

    Of course the real final fight was between Thor and Loki, which I thought was pretty good.
    Eh, it seriously won't be that hard to challenge her, y'all are making this more difficult than it is. When Thanos hits her with the Stone it puts her down in one blow, so anyone powered by a Stone, or on that level, should be capable of hurting her; Vision, Wanda, Strange, Infinity War Thor.....that establishes, roughly, her limit, and it's not that hard to deal with.

    Just grab someone from cosmic Marvel; Terrax, or any of the Heralds really, Anniulus...Annihulus....the Negative Zone guy, however you spell his name, Gladiator from the Shi'ar....Kree Sentries, Korvac, a Starbrand, take your pick.

    Or just use a horde. Get the Brood, in all their endless legions, or a Kree fleet. Overwhelm Carol with numbers if a singular, legit threat is beyond Marvel's imagination.

    Just look at how hard Carol can hit, find someone who can hit that hard, and you're good to go. And the comics are full of people who can kick that much ass, including Thor himself. Power levels are only a problem if you make them one.
    Like I said, the threats are going to have to get bigger and bigger .

  8. #1778
    Incredible Member Wall-Crawler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post


    SO. FREAKING. EPIC.

    Why couldn't we get this Thor on the big screen ? Back then in 2011 when Thor made his debut, the superhero movies weren't used to all the "weirdness" and "high-concepts" that are needed to properly portray Thor's mythos, but now we are past that point.

    I mean, who doesn't like a badass powerful viking god ? The MCU needs to have more trust in Thor's franchise, general audience LOVED Thor on Infinity War and that's the closest Thor we've gotten personality wise. I am quite confident that if Thor hadn't been introduced and they were thinking of adding him to the mix, they'd do a far better job than they did a decade ago thanks to the confidence studios have gotten embracing the comic book aspects and how general audience has embraced it as well.

    I am just hoping that in the near future, maybe a decade from now, the entire MCU and Thor especially gets rebooted and we can have a PROPER movie adaptation of who the character is and his mythos.

    I mean ffs look at that beauty EMH video......who wouldn't like that badass ?
    Last edited by Wall-Crawler; 07-05-2020 at 01:03 PM.

  9. #1779
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wall-Crawler View Post
    SO. FREAKING. EPIC.

    Why couldn't we get this Thor on the big screen ? Back then in 2011 when Thor made his debut, the superhero movies weren't used to all the "weirdness" and "high-concepts" that are needed to properly portray Thor's mythos, but now we are past that point.

    I mean, who doesn't like a badass powerful viking god ? The MCU needs to have more trust in Thor's franchise, general audience LOVED Thor on Infinity War and that's the closest Thor we've gotten personality wise. I am quite confident that if Thor hadn't been introduced and they were thinking of adding him to the mix, they'd do a far better job than they did a decade ago thanks to the confidence studios have gotten embracing the comic book aspects and how general audience has embraced it as well.

    I am just hoping that in the near future, maybe a decade from now, the entire MCU and Thor especially gets rebooted and we can have a PROPER movie adaptation of who the character is and his mythos.

    I mean ffs look at that beauty EMH video......who wouldn't like that badass ?
    Totally with you. I suspect a reboot would be the only answer at this point.

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  10. #1780
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    The Destroy kind of got jobbed, but I admit that scene of Thor wielding Mjolnir and wrecking it was still pretty epic.

    Of course the real final fight was between Thor and Loki, which I thought was pretty good.
    I thought so too, but that doesn't excuse the fact that an all-out brawl between the Destroyer, Thor, Sif, and the Warriors Three wrecked a total of one, maybe two small streets. That's a fight which should've leveled that entire town. I mean, we've seen more destruction just from people pulling confederate statues down.

    Like I said, the threats are going to have to get bigger and bigger .
    Sequels always have to go bigger. But we're one film down already, and it's unlikely Carol gets more than a trilogy. So it's still pretty easy, we just have to find a good fight for two movies. Marvel has thousands of characters at its disposal, I'm sure there's at least two viable options to pick from.

    I get that some writers struggle with the high concept stuff. Some people can write Batman but not Superman. I get it. But there's literally no reason MCU Carol can't be physically challenged. If Star-Lord can fight a planet, Carol can find a good brawl too.
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  11. #1781
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I thought so too, but that doesn't excuse the fact that an all-out brawl between the Destroyer, Thor, Sif, and the Warriors Three wrecked a total of one, maybe two small streets. That's a fight which should've leveled that entire town. I mean, we've seen more destruction just from people pulling confederate statues down.
    Collateral damage in Superhero movies. They're a killer .
    Sequels always have to go bigger. But we're one film down already, and it's unlikely Carol gets more than a trilogy. So it's still pretty easy, we just have to find a good fight for two movies. Marvel has thousands of characters at its disposal, I'm sure there's at least two viable options to pick from.

    I get that some writers struggle with the high concept stuff. Some people can write Batman but not Superman. I get it. But there's literally no reason MCU Carol can't be physically challenged. If Star-Lord can fight a planet, Carol can find a good brawl too.
    Oh, I'm definitely ready to see Carol physically challenged. Somebody needs to make up for that Starforce fight.

  12. #1782
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Oh, I'm definitely ready to see Carol physically challenged. Somebody needs to make up for that Starforce fight.
    Since they made the Kree such d-bags in the last film I'd like to see a role reversal in the sequel; introduce some Kree who aren't jackasses (or are at least justified in their actions and not trying to commit genocide) and some Skrulls who are jackasses.

    Bring in the Super Skrull. That could be a good fight.

    And I hope some movie, not necessarily CM 2, explores the political upheaval of recent years. Asgard might have been a small empire, consisting of only nine systems, but Asgardians are known across the galaxy and have quite a reputation, and now their government has collapsed. Xandar is gone and the Nova Corps shattered, everyone suffered from the Snap.....I really want to see how Thanos impacted the status quo, not just on earth (what happened to the Accords?) but in space too.
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  13. #1783
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Since they made the Kree such d-bags in the last film I'd like to see a role reversal in the sequel; introduce some Kree who aren't jackasses (or are at least justified in their actions and not trying to commit genocide) and some Skrulls who are jackasses.

    Bring in the Super Skrull. That could be a good fight.
    I think we'll see villainous Skrulls in the FF movies. It would be the most fitting place to put them.
    And I hope some movie, not necessarily CM 2, explores the political upheaval of recent years. Asgard might have been a small empire, consisting of only nine systems, but Asgardians are known across the galaxy and have quite a reputation, and now their government has collapsed. Xandar is gone and the Nova Corps shattered, everyone suffered from the Snap.....I really want to see how Thanos impacted the status quo, not just on earth (what happened to the Accords?) but in space too.
    The Asgardians never seemed relevant outside their own movie (even though they probably should have been). I guess Vol. 3 will probably deal with the fallout of the Nova Corps being destroyed (and set up Nova).

    The only relevance the Accords have really had since Civil War has been Ross being the new top cop.

  14. #1784
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ichijinijisanji View Post
    I don't think antiforce is related to the negative zone or antimatter
    It just appears to be some sort of force. He used it i think first in thor 142? (correct me if im wrong) to bfr super skrull and then I think the biggest application was mangogg and thanos

    But it should be somewhat more unique than just another big blast. Part of the problem is redundancy. What's one big blast compared to another? Why use antiforce to bfr instead of powerful winds? Why use antiforce or the magnetic energy of a planet thing instead of Godblast? This is why those things have fallen out of common use in part.
    Well that's why I like it, it is unique rather than just another big blast, it's a counter measure or counter for e nullification

    It made me think it was linked to the negative zone which was why I thought it would be good against Robert, but that was my conclusion

    It's a negation, and I can't think of many other poets like that which is why for me it is rather unique

    Certainly compared to just brute force I feel

    As for why not use the godblast whenever, I think because it's a link between his hammer and his life force, so it drains him a lot

    Certainly as his big boom it should be rarely used imo

    Which of course it has been

  15. #1785
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I agree, they don't really seem to know what to do with him even now....but he's fallen into the GotG mold and that seemed to do well so I think that's the position they've settled on for him....even if it's not really Thor-like. And they literally had to destroy his entire mythos to get him there.



    I dunno if I'd say I'm "fine" with the comedic bent so much as I've just accepted that this is who MCU Thor has become, and I don't think the previous takes were good enough to lament their loss.

    I'd much rather have an epic, Shakespearean, mythical Thor who resembles the Thor I know from myth and/or comics. But I never got that in the films, even when they were half-assed trying to do it, and at least Guardian Thor is fun and entertaining, yknow?

    As a funny aside....before the first film hit, I really wanted Karl Urban for Thor. It's a sad kind of ironic that I finally got him in Thor.....but as someone else, and just in time to watch Asgard burn.



    I think, given the nature of both narratives, we shouldn't worry about Carol being challenged.....yet.

    Her solo film, the challenge was emotional and mental; when she finally unlocks her powers that's not supposed to be a fight, it's a victory lap. It'd go against the themes of the film for her to discover her "real/true power" only to still struggle (against her male antagonists). And Endgame just gave her a big "Superman" moment where she gets to save the day and smash the opposition with near impunity....which falls in nicely with the fanservice "you waited ten years for this" mentality of the entire film.

    So, thus far, I'm cool with Carol steamrolling her foes. The films she's been in, the roles she's had in the story, that's how it *should* go. But in future appearances I expect to see her get her ass kicked before rising up and overcoming her foes like a proper action hero should. The mental challenges are past, the fanservice moments are past, let's see her bleed a little bit! And there's tons of threats out there Marvel could use, especially now that they've got the Fox IP's back.

    I'm not worried about there being threats capable of challenging Carol, there's plenty. My real concern is Marvel being able to actually write it well; the only times I've felt like the MCU captured a high-level powerhouse properly was under the Russo's....who don't think they can write high-level powerhouses.
    I think you are right about carol, which I also think is why so far I have found her very boring

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