What sort of charaterization and backstory do you like for Beatriz da Costa?

[Tzigone]

I was like, 'whaaaat?'

Reboots can screw with you.

So I definitely would prefer a backstory that had less to do with 'just a mutant' and more of a serious characterization than the partying covergirl of the JLI days.

I definitely want a more serious characterization. I mean, she can still be a party girl, but the JLI is just not my thing. Really liked 1986 solo series Ted Kord. Then go over to JLI and instead a person who is kind, socially competent, a genius scientist and a brilliant businessman, he's an absolute doofus. Still a technological genius, but he lost everything else. Booster lost IQ points, too. I don't like the kind of humor that demeans the characters.

I regard the two Beas as two different characters, much as I do pre and post-COIE Jason Todd. I go with this Bea, because she has the friendship with Ice, and she's the one everyone knows. I just want to tone it down into a character who isn't a walking joke. Which I think a lot of the JLI were often treated as during that that era. Not 100% of time, by far. But when it came to (non-depressing) non-work-related depictions, it was darn close. Couldn't really read the early stuff. The Jurgens era that I read was better (leading up to Death of Superman), but then the lineup changed. Guy was still way too irritating, though.

Also, I have intentionally avoided reading pre-COIE Jason (though I have read some in hazy area after COIE and before new origin given - not in Batman title, but Teen Titans and maybe 'Tec) so as not to get attached because I regard them so differently, and kind of have the same tactic with Bea.

Not really into mystic abilities - prefer metas in general.

[hotroddii]

[QUOTE=Tzigone;4758761]Did we get any indications of Bea's age in the late '80s? I don't mind later references, but am particularly interested in how old she was supposed to be during that era.

I remember in a letters column in early 90’s a reader asked if Fire was too old for Nuklon (who she was interested in) ... and the editor replied “two ... three years tops”

So I assume late 20’s

[Tzigone]

Thanks tons for the age info. I love timelining and ages help with that so much. I mean, sometimes we get multiple contradicting ages, but even that's better than none.

[Alphaxman]

Has it ever been explained why her flames are green? I used to imagine that she had a connection with the starheart that powers Alan Scott, because his constructs were made from green flames.

[Tzigone]

I am 38, highly political and have a very good memory. Ask away, here or on DMs.

Okay, this may be less historical, but here we go.

Looking first at the poor, and the working/lower middle class of Rio de Janeiro (since that was used in Secret Origins 33), I have a question. Is owning a house (as opposed to apartment or condo) a dream? For a long time in the US, house ownership was part of the "American dream" - certainly not obtainable for everyone, but there was the general expectation that it's what everyone wanted (at least after marriage and children). Or would an apartment/condo be at least nearly as good? In my head, Bea would have left before prices really skyrocketed, and wouldn't have owned a home, but I'm more thinking about the wants of the relatives that still live there (like I said, I'd like her to have siblings). But I'm not quite sure when that started. I know they went up a lot between 2008 and 2015.

Next, what are the most common size beds for kids and couples? What are the names for the standard sizes of mattresses?

I'm also trying to figure out the old age assistance payments. I understand it to be equal to minimum wage, and available to those earning less that 25% minimum wage per person in the household. We have means-tested SSI for the elderly. What I was trying to figure out if it's available to all the people of that age and income level who didn't pay any taxes as ours is, and whether it has an asset limit. Also if elderly couple lived alone and made that little money, could both husband and wife collect the payment? What if it was 66 year old couple with their 86 year old parents - could all four (or six) collect?

Is there any online source for historical salary information? Relatively recent, I mean, during the Internet era. Since the year 2000 or even 2010.

[Agent Z]

Has it ever been explained why her flames are green? I used to imagine that she had a connection with the starheart that powers Alan Scott, because his constructs were made from green flames.

Her flames are called "pyroplasm" suggesting it isn't normal fire.

[Tzigone]

Her flames are called "pyroplasm" suggesting it isn't normal fire.

In Secret Origins, the espionage agency she worked for had pyroplasm ray guns. Pyroplasm was defined as "a powerful organic energy source." So not normal fire, but not clear on exact properties.

[docmidnite]

What I hate most is DC’s failure to capitalize on Fire & Ice as a female duo at the very height of their popularity. They could have easily carried their own title and been one of DC’s most popular pairings during the late 80’s to even now.

Also, under Giffen & Dematteis Fire was the strong, serious, no nonsense, capable, member of the JLI that kept the goofballs (Booster, Beetle and especially Guy Gardner because of his interest in Ice) in check. Whereas, Ice was the sweet, innocent, naïve member of the JLI who didn’t understand much of the regular world that needed Fire to protect her from those who would prey on her innocence (like Guy Gardner)

Fire & Ice were/are the perfect point/counterpoint female duo of the DCU.

Also, it was under Jurgens that she was tricked by Booster into that whole calendar thing.

[Tzigone]

Also, under Giffen & Dematteis Fire was the strong, serious, no nonsense member of the JLI that kept the goofballs (Booster, Beetle and especially Guy Gardner because of his interest in Ice) in check

In the few I read, she wasn't serious and no-nonsense (though I acknowledge that as very few issues, because I do not like the humor - she was inactive part of the time over Invasion! in what I read, too). None of them were. Made Scott and Barda more wacky hi jinks, too (liked their original characterizations, more too). And I was extremely unhappy to see Ted turned into frat boy moron (I really did like him in his '80s solo series, and he's nothing like that there). Still a technical genius, but actual sense and personality radically different than before. Don't even get me started on Formerly Known As. What post-COIE in general did to Ralph and Sue was bad enough (they were my silver age babies but later on he's always the butt of jokes), but that just jacked it up to 10 (Sue married a "4" as has no respect for her husband at all and talks about him like gum on her shoe sometimes). So much parody and even more demeaning to everyone than some of the earlier JLI stuff. I freely admit that while I like the idea of a lot of the characters, and liked them in other stuff, I deeply dislike a lot of the stuff inside the books featuring these teams.

[docmidnite]

In the few I read, she wasn't serious and no-nonsense (though I acknowledge that as very few issues, because I do not like the humor - she was inactive part of the time over Invasion! in what I read, too). None of them were. Made Scott and Barda more wacky hi jinks, too (liked their original characterizations, more too). And I was extremely unhappy to see Ted turned into frat boy moron (I really did like him in his '80s solo series, and he's nothing like that there). Don't even get me started on Formerly Known As. What post-COIE in general did to Ralph and Sue was bad enough (they were my silver age babies but later on he's always the butt of jokes), but that just jacked it up to 10 (Sue married a "4" as has no respect for her husband at all and talks about him like gum on her shoe sometimes). So much parody and even more demeaning to everyone than some of the earlier JLI stuff. I freely admit that while I like the idea of a lot of the characters, and liked them in other stuff, I deeply dislike a lot of the stuff inside the books featuring these teams.

I deeply suggest that you actually read the entire run. Especially to understand the team dynamics and characterizations. Also, not everything in JLI was humorous. The Despero arc, Breakdowns arc were both extremely serious and dark.

You also have to understand that mostly, JLI was like the Ultimate universe versions of these characters (but in a funny way) and not the total sum of these characters.

For example: JLI Bats suffered from anxiety whenever he was forced to go to the JLI embassy and deal with the goofballs, but outside of the JLI universe he was the Dark Knight Detective that could handle anything.

JLI Dr. Light II was an extreme biatch that hated everything, but outside of the JLI universe she was a brilliant scientist who got along well with her co-workers.

JLI Captain Marvel was a child in an adult male’s body, but outside of the JLI universe he was mature and guided by the wisdom of Solomon

JLI Ted Kord was a laid back sort that always allowed himself to get dragged into one of Booster’s goofball schemes, but outside of the JLI universe he was a brilliant child prodigy who was following in the footsteps of his mentor even without his mentor’s powers


I could go on and on and on but I’m sure you get the picture.

[Tzigone]

I deeply suggest that you actually read the entire run. Especially to understand the team dynamics and characterizations. Also, not everything in JLI was humorous. The Despero arc, Breakdowns arc were both extremely serious and dark.

I respectfully refuse. I disliked most of what I read, and so I'm not going to keep in reading in case I change my mind later - I learned a long time ago to cut bait when I don't like something because I generally end up disliking it more and more the more I read. Also, "dark and serious" is not a compliment to me. I hate grimdark. I know I said it once before, but can't recall where - it seemed to me 90% of the time to be either depressing to dumb humor, with insufficient middle ground.

You also have to understand that mostly, JLI was like the Ultimate universe versions of these characters (but in a funny way) and not the total sum of these characters.

I can accept that is the setup. It's not a setup I'm interested in. Particularly because I find some of the characterization just completely baseless and divorced from previous characterization (which to be fair, is very common in comic books whenever a new writer writes a character regardless of how serious the content - it's a reason I have a lot of characters I like mostly only in certain eras - might as well be different characters entirely sometimes when a new writer takes over). Doesn't help when there's years at a time when certain characters just aren't being used in anything else, and this is all there is of them for me to read.

For example: JLI Bats suffered from anxiety whenever he was forced to go to the JLI embassy and deal with the goofballs, but outside of the JLI universe he was the Dark Knight Detective that could handle anything.

JLI Dr. Light II was an extreme biatch that hated everything, but outside of the JLI universe she was a brilliant scientist who got along well with her co-workers.

JLI Captain Marvel was a child in an adult male’s body, but outside of the JLI universe he was mature and guided by the wisdom of Solomon

JLI Ted Kord was a laid back sort that always allowed himself to get dragged into one of Booster’s goofball schemes, but outside of the JLI universe he was a brilliant child prodigy who was following in the footsteps of his mentor even without his mentor’s powers

And I dislike every one of those for the characters I'm more familiar with, so why would I want to read it? If it was labeled out of continuity, then I'd have skipped it to begin and wouldn't care nearly so much about the depictions.

I don't generally like humor that demeans. Exceptions made for out of continuity minis that pick on the big dogs (popular or well-respected heroes, not those who have little reputation or already aren't taken seriously and would be more likely to influenced in canon or less respected by fans as a result), and mostly pick on all the used characters relatively evenly.

Side note: just to say that in 1980s Blue Beetle, Ted wasn't a child prodigy that we saw. A genius, yes, but no indication of doing so as a child, and he did not seem to be a younger-than-typical college student. I do recall reading that come in later, though. Which is kind of odd, when I think about it, since he also seems to be older (relative to other characters) in later stories than he was in the early ones (maybe not though, I would think so with the vague "several" and "a few" years ago references, but the only specific one I remember is his high school reunion in early '90s). Comic book timelining is always a trial. But I l love it.

[docmidnite]

I respectfully refuse. I disliked most of what I read, and so I'm not going to keep in reading in case I change my mind later - I learned a long time ago to cut bait when I don't like something because I generally end up disliking it more and more the more I read. Also, "dark and serious" is not a compliment to me. I hate grimdark. I know I said it once before, but can't recall where - it seemed to me 90% of the time to be either depressing to dumb humor, with insufficient middle ground.

I can accept that is the setup. It's not a setup I'm interested in. Particularly because I find some of the characterization just completely baseless and divorced from previous characterization (which to be fair, is very common in comic books whenever a new writer writes a character regardless of how serious the content - it's a reason I have a lot of characters I like mostly only in certain eras - might as well be different characters entirely sometimes when a new writer takes over). Doesn't help when there's years at a time when certain characters just aren't being used in anything else, and this is all there is of them for me to read.

And I dislike every one of those for the characters I'm more familiar with, so why would I want to read it? If it was labeled out of continuity, then I'd have skipped it to begin and wouldn't care nearly so much about the depictions.

I don't like humor that demeans.

Side note: just to say that in 1980s Blue Beetle, Ted wasn't a child prodigy that we saw. A genius, yes, but no indication of doing so as a child, and he did not seem to be a younger-than-typical college student. I do recall reading that come in later, though. Which is kind of odd, when I think about it, since he also seems to be older (relative to other characters) in later stories than he was in the early ones (maybe not though, I would think so with the vague "several" and "a few" years ago references, but the only specific one I remember is his high school reunion in early '90s). Comic book timelining is always a trial. But I l love it.

Well, we're obviously at opposite ends of the spectrum then as I loved JLI and didn’t find anything “demeaning” about the humour personally and found it a fun distraction from the rest of the dark and edgy DCU.

Just a side note though. Just like I don’t talk negatively about Jason Todd and his characterization (because I don’t really understand his characterization even though I’ve read a few issues and disliked them) in Red Hood maybe you could refrain from talking negatively about Fire’s characterization in JLI since you’ve only read a few issues and don’t really know what her characterization was like in JLI in it’s entirety.

Again, just a suggestion.

[Tzigone]

Back to Bea - what percentage of Brazilians (or those from Rio, specifically) in their 30s have completed high school? Or even eighth grade (ensino fundamental is that age or a year older, I'm not sure which)? Education rates went up in recent years (decades?), but even then, I think you have the normal setup where those from families that are educated are more likely to complete school themselves. And, of course, education is correlated with wealth. Though I do understand the South and Southeastern zones are richer, more urban, and more educated.

[SJNeal]

While this isn't an appreciation thread per se, does anyone mind an occasional image of our favorite Brazilian Justice Leaguer?