Jon Kent: Superboy Appreciation 2020

[Midnighter]

It's space and time, with a wormhole to an alternate universe added for good measure, that does not mean time is linear across the board, which is why Bendis wrote it in the first place because it was shorthand to get Jon to where DC wanted him for their plans, and that's older. Because things have changed, to reverse his aging will need to be something new written in based on the fact that his aging was meant to be seen as something legit not some earth 3 doppelganger taking young Jon's place. Could they make him a double now, sure but that's not how it was originally written. Will they actually write it that way, I'm not convinced.

Except, it kind of does. Space and time are basic concepts that adhere to the same rules in any universe that isn't Bizarro's.

So....yeah.

[Sam]

Something I'm confused about.

So 17yo Jon came through ,like, a temperal wormhole to arrive in the present from earth 3 aged up because 7 years passed for him but only like 2 weeks for everyone else?

Am I understanding that right? So if that's the case isn't 10yo Jon still on Earth 3 in the volcano? Why would Clark just leave him there? Why hasn't anyone mounted a rescue?

Actually, it's worse than that. The issues detailing Jon's journey implied that he and Jor-El traveled together in the main universe for at least an entire summer, if not longer, but when 17-year-old Jon showed up, he had been gone for only a matter of weeks. That means young Jon would have still been hanging around the main universe and Superman didn't go off and try to bring him back.

[Morgoth]

I just don't remember, but they had a discussion about the possibility of going back in time and getting Jon out of Earth-3 or not?
If they hadn't, then the question about Clark, who did not go to save him, is much more difficult. Saving younger Jon means erasing that version from existence. And if he'll do that without Jon's permission, it just looks like a monstrous act of selfishness, which Clark would have never done to his son. It’s Jon’s life, first of all. It has to be his decision and currently he is unlikely to decide to do so.
But if Bendis or someone who will write further follows this path, then it seems to me that it is Jon who will save his younger self from Earth-3. He himself will make this choice, perhaps this is precisely what is said in the December solicits about sacrifice in Legion.

[sifighter]

Hey so it’s time for the other older Jon in DCeased Dead Planet #4, and it looks like Jon is about to help pull off a heist on New Genesis as the muscle....I mean what other role would Superman play in a heist? I suppose he could be get away but I assume that role would go to Flash.

https://aiptcomics.com/2020/10/02/dc...dead-planet-4/

[Sam]

I just don't remember, but they had a discussion about the possibility of going back in time and getting Jon out of Earth-3 or not?
If they hadn't, then the question about Clark, who did not go to save him, is much more difficult. Saving younger Jon means erasing that version from existence. And if he'll do that without Jon's permission, it just looks like a monstrous act of selfishness, which Clark would have never done to his son. It’s Jon’s life, first of all. It has to be his decision and currently he is unlikely to decide to do so.
But if Bendis or someone who will write further follows this path, then it seems to me that it is Jon who will save his younger self from Earth-3. He himself will make this choice, perhaps this is precisely what is said in the December solicits about sacrifice in Legion.

But what if young Jon wanted to be saved? Even if older Jon said it all came out alright, do young Jon's wishes get ignored? Superman doesn't come out looking great in either scenario.

[rpmaluki]

Of course Jon wanted to be saved, what kid wouldn't? It sadly happened much later than any of these characters liked. In the time he wasn't saved, he lived, grew up, and like someone said, going back to save Jon from inside the volcano is now up to this teen Jon, no one can do it without erasing this current version. It's his life unless a villain does it, it's the only way to do it without his consent. Jon's story reminds me of the book/film The Deep End of the Ocean, resolving it isn't so clear cut.

[Morgoth]

But what if young Jon wanted to be saved? Even if older Jon said it all came out alright, do young Jon's wishes get ignored? Superman doesn't come out looking great in either scenario.

But to save him is to erase the present one, who already has a life. That's the problem. If he became the villain because of all this, then the choice would be easier. But he has grown up and is relatively content with his current fate. Only he can dispose of it.
That is why I think that the "sacrifice" which has been written about in solicits speaks exactly about this - in order to defeat Rogol Zaar, Jon will time travel to his past to save his child self from Ultraman, change his own fate, erase his own history with the Legion and Saturn Girl, and somehow saving the future from Rogol Zaar. The circle will close, thus Bendis will complete the story that he himself began.

[Sam]

But to save him is to erase the present one, who already has a life. That's the problem. If he became the villain because of all this, then the choice would be easier. But he has grown up and is relatively content with his current fate. Only he can dispose of it.

Except they are both the present one. That's the issue. And I don't think you can ask 11 year old Jon to endure years of torture because 17-year-old Jon is weirdly okay with it. That's really wrong.

[Artemisfanboy]

No Jon is not stuck in earth 3. I believe Jor-El discovered what had happened and followed after through the wormhole to search for him. It took years and when he eventually found him on earth 3 he brought him back through the same wormhole. Teen Jon is Jon not earth 3 Jon, I believe it's why ultraman trapped him inside the volcano for so long as opposed to killing him because, Jon was the son he never would have with earth 3 Lois. Clark even had Kelex deep dive into Jon's DNA to make sure it was his Jon and it was. For Jon to be de-age, something else would have to happen.

It's space and time, with a wormhole to an alternate universe added for good measure, that does not mean time is linear across the board, which is why Bendis wrote it in the first place because it was shorthand to get Jon to where DC wanted him for their plans, and that's older. Because things have changed, to reverse his aging will need to be something new written in based on the fact that his aging was meant to be seen as something legit not some earth 3 doppelganger taking young Jon's place. Could they make him a double now, sure but that's not how it was originally written. Will they actually write it that way, I'm not convinced.

Time dilation effects have to be consistent. If you're going to say seven weeks in one dimension equals seven years in another dimension, it always has to flow at that equal rate. And this has never been how Earth 3 or the Multiverse has been shown to work. Time between the main earth and Earth 3 has been shown to be flow one-to-one. It has to or other wise most stories involving Earth 3 become unviable.

While you can add time travel to the mix(and has to be involved for this to make sense), that means there is a seven year period in Earth 3's linear timeline where Jon is being tortured inside a volcano. Which means they have a large frame of time to work with to send somebody to dimension, and if necessary, time travel to save the Jon from having spend seven years, from the age of ten to seventeen, being tortured in a volcano.

I just don't remember, but they had a discussion about the possibility of going back in time and getting Jon out of Earth-3 or not?
If they hadn't, then the question about Clark, who did not go to save him, is much more difficult. Saving younger Jon means erasing that version from existence. And if he'll do that without Jon's permission, it just looks like a monstrous act of selfishness, which Clark would have never done to his son. It’s Jon’s life, first of all. It has to be his decision and currently he is unlikely to decide to do so.
But if Bendis or someone who will write further follows this path, then it seems to me that it is Jon who will save his younger self from Earth-3. He himself will make this choice, perhaps this is precisely what is said in the December solicits about sacrifice in Legion.

Of course Jon wanted to be saved, what kid wouldn't? It sadly happened much later than any of these characters liked. In the time he wasn't saved, he lived, grew up, and like someone said, going back to save Jon from inside the volcano is now up to this teen Jon, no one can do it without erasing this current version. It's his life unless a villain does it, it's the only way to do it without his consent. Jon's story reminds me of the book/film The Deep End of the Ocean, resolving it isn't so clear cut.

This assumes the most simple linear form of time travel possible involved. That jon got sent back in time directly seven years and returned to the main universe with only dimension travel and no additional time travel involved.

The moral quandary proposed is also dependent on the older version of Jon disappearing. Which is not necessarily a guarantee.

I'm currently leaning into the theory seventeen year old Jon is from seven years in the future where he wasn't rescued from Earth 3, and the real Jon is stuck on Earth 3 right now in the present. They find this out(as a result of the stuff with somebody from earth three currently in one of the books), hop over and rescue the real Jon. Seventeen Jon can either disappear or survive as a temporal anomaly and go somewhere else. Going by solicitations for legion, probably back to the 30th century so he can make a heroic sacrifice so they don't have duplicates causing a headache for future writers and editors.

I will also go so far to say that if my theory is correct, and Jon is on earth three being tortured in in the present relative to where Clark is, and the seventeen year old version is a potential future version, he would have a responsibility to rescue him, regardless of how the future Jon feels(and if the future Jon is a moral person, he would understand and help rescue his younger self). To do other wise would be ignoring the Jon currently being tortured in the present. I can think of some other scenarios to justify it by circumstance, but getting the older Jon to help does remove the moral conflict certain defenders of this age up like to fall back on.

I also find the statement "he lived, grew up" to be a very sugar coated way of phrasing and treating the situation. While true in the technical sense. Being tortured in a volcano for seven years in between ten and seventeen, during very important developmental years, hardly makes for what most would consider living life or growing up. By all means Jon should logically be a total mental and emotional wreck, but Bendis just ignores it, and treats it as minor bad experience, rather the completely horrific one it is, and we're suppose to just accept he's well adjusted seventeen year old and ready for romance.

Anyway we'll have to wait and see where we are at the end of December(or maybe later this month with January's solicits) when everything has ran it's course. I already decided a while back I'm not coming back to the books unless they bring the younger version back.

[witchboy]

That Jon is so calmly well adjusted about it, and his parents have accepted it fairly easily - after making ridiculously awful parenting choices - just makes the story even worse, it makes erasing it more appealing.

[Blue22]

All this talk of how to reverse one of Bendis' biggest mistakes is seriously getting my hopes up when I know it shouldn't lol

I'm still totally prepared for that "ultimate sacrifice" stuff to not mean what any of us are thinking and/or hoping it means. I've been let down by misleading solicits before -___-

[Morgoth]

I just hope that solicits next week will provide some information. However if newsrama is right about Future State, we won't find out till December.

[sifighter]

Not sure if this ever addressed in mainline continuity, I think it may have been but I can’t remember, but DCeased Dead Planet #4 introduces the idea that Jon as Superman may actually be stronger then his Dad because his dna or something.

Though this is only really discussed when spoilers:

He punches out Orion for being a bit of a jerk to Scott Free.

end of spoilers

[Konja7]

Not sure if this ever addressed in mainline continuity, I think it may have been but I can’t remember, but DCeased Dead Planet #4 introduces the idea that Jon as Superman may actually be stronger then his Dad because his dna or something.

Though this is only really discussed when spoilers:

He punches out Orion for being a bit of a jerk to Scott Free.

end of spoilers

It was addressed in mainline continuity (in Tomasi's Superman). That's why DCeased referenced it.

[sifighter]

It was addressed in mainline continuity (in Tomasi's Superman). That's why DCeased referenced it.

Thought it sounded familiar, thanks