Jon Kent: Superboy Appreciation 2020

[Sam]

"Relatability" is an incredibly vague idea. On the one hand I've seen people relate to the idea of Peter Parker being late on his rent, and on the other hand I've seen people relate to a time eating chronovore eating up the few minutes that Clark could've spent with his dad before he died in All Star Superman. It's fiction. Both schools of thought are valid, but more regularly with comic book fiction they tend to be more allegorical and symbolic because they stakes and ideas are always going to be greater than your average person's. Like, I've seen quite a lot of comments from people saying how the really related to Clark's "coming out", but obviously when they came out they didn't hold a press conference, but I bet it must've felt like that.

Bendis writing a relatable Clark doesn't translate to Bendis writing a relatable Jon. If Bendis was using allegory with Jon that would be one thing, but he hasn't even been doing that. His Jon is hollow. Super hollow. And it doesn't matter how vague a concept relatability might be to you, but if tons of people are criticizing Bendis's version of Jon for not being relatable, then there's probably a reason for that.

[Sam]

No, I understand that. I'm specifically talking about the clear tongue-in-cheek nature nature of the response to what reads as an inherently ridiculous comment.

But it's not a ridiculous comment. That's the point.

[Superlad93]

Bendis writing a relatable Clark doesn't translate to Bendis writing a relatable Jon. If Bendis was using allegory with Jon that would be one thing, but he hasn't even been doing that.

The allegory not hitting personally you or working for you or anyone else doesn't stop it from existing. I'm personally seeing it and resonating with it, and I've spoken to and seen people who feel largely the same. Some people don't see All Star Superman as a story they can relate to, but then there's other people who couldn't relate to it more. It all depends on how literal you like your fiction, what you've personally been through, and where your mindset is at while reading it. I mean, I've see comments about how people couldn't relate to Jon or Clark and his family during rebirth because of what they felt was a picturesque depiction of a family. I personally didn't find myself agreeing with those people.

[Superlad93]

But it's not a ridiculous comment. That's the point.

In the context of superhero fiction, the the draw for someone being them wanting to read about a fictional character play Fortnight and learn math is inherently ridiculous, yes. It's not "wrong". It's just a known understanding that this is not the baseline draw or point of superhero fiction.

[Ascended]

No, I understand that. I'm specifically talking about the clear tongue-in-cheek nature nature of the response to what reads as an inherently ridiculous comment.

I'm not sure if the original comment was supposed to be entirely serious either. I mean, of all the things to enjoy about young Jon, him playing Fortnite and doing homework seem like they'd probably be kinda low on the priority list, right?

I mean, if it was Overwatch, then I'd understand.

[manwhohaseverything]

"Relatability" is an incredibly vague idea. On the one hand I've seen people relate to the idea of Peter Parker being late on his rent, and on the other hand I've seen people relate to a time eating chronovore eating up the few minutes that Clark could've spent with his dad before he died in All Star Superman. It's fiction. Both schools of thought are valid, but more regularly with comic book fiction they tend to be more allegorical and symbolic because they stakes and ideas are always going to be greater than your average person's. Like, I've seen quite a lot of comments from people saying how the really related to Clark's "coming out", but obviously when they came out they didn't hold a press conference, but I bet it must've felt like that.

It is vague term. But, every character has different beats and different types of it according to how they are conceptualised.I have been asking why i have this problem with Bendis's jon. Especially, after i made that thread about Superman being flat arc character. Jon is a flat arc character like clark now. See, clark never changes. jon always does. Deaths in Clark's life doesn't change his world view only focuses it. It is us or his world that supposed to change their world view according to Clark's. Because superman is the truth.The world is the lie.

That's my problem,i wasn't look for that in jon. If a death happens in books with jon. He should be changing his world view, its must unlike clark. Jon works best when he is changing his own world view or trying to understand another person's world view like his father, damians, manchester black's, Kathy's, bizarro boys so on and so forth. The second instance isn't what jon is about. Jon isn't supposed to be staying at the same level. He needs to go from zero to one. Clark will always stay at one from start to finish.Jon is a lie that is part of superman's world. So, the story is him becoming the truth that is superman from the lie. The journey is what matters.

Why do we need to make jon into such a character , when we already have clark for that? we already have clark as the flat arc character. Let jon be clumsy, thril seeker or fun seeker.As said, jon is a postive arc character. Jon is about coming to terms, trying many a times failing, learning and then taking responsibility. If he becomes superman he is no fun. If peter parker becomes ben parker, he isn't fun.

Would you even want a spiderman who has fully embraced the truth that "with great power comes great responsibility" instead of dealing with it.Jon dealing or coping with "truth, justice and the american way" or Damian's " war against injustice" while getting scared of dead bodies, being stubborn and unapologetic about hurting a sea monster while saving people .. Etc is far more entertaining. Than him already being well rounded. Jon needs to get brave. He needs to learn the value of life. He needs to learn rejections. So on and so forth. Jon is a perpetual learner. He needs that human side and mundanity that comes from it . He has the parker luck,so to speak. Jon's relatability comes from this.

Even his goal of becoming is superman works best when he doesn't achieve it. It's sort of like peter calling himself spiderman instead of spiderboy. Jon doesn't go for that though, because he respects the title and knows he hasn't gotten to that level yet.

Jon being the little guy of the family has a value. He is small or younger one and that's ok. He isn't an equal to conner or kara or clark. That's perfectly fine.

[Superlad93]

Jon probably is an Overwatch kid lol

[Sam]

The allegory not hitting personally you or working for you or anyone else doesn't stop it from existing. I'm personally seeing it and resonating with it, and I've spoken to and seen people who feel largely the same. Some people don't see All Star Superman as a story they can relate to, but then there's other people who couldn't relate to it more. It all depends on how literal you like your fiction, what you've personally been through, and where your mindset is at while reading it. I mean, I've see comments about how people couldn't relate to Jon or Clark and his family during rebirth because of what they felt was a picturesque depiction of a family. I personally didn't find myself agreeing with those people.

Right, but you haven't actually explained what the allegory is with Jon in Bendis's run. I agree it's there with Clark (even if I don't like it), but all the allegory Bendis has mentioned that involves Jon is stuff that is presented from Clark's perspective (like the summer camp one), which works toward making Clark relatable, not Jon.

In the context of superhero fiction, the the draw for someone being them wanting to read about a fictional character play Fortnight and learn math is inherently ridiculous, yes. It's not "wrong". It's just a known understanding that this is not the baseline draw or point of superhero fiction.

Except again, Tomasi's run gave us that sort of thing. It's not ridiculous to expect those sorts of trapping when it has been previously done to great effect. People liked Tomasi's Jon, so it's not ridiculous to want to see a return to those trappings that helped make the character feel so real. They're not asking for anything that's unheard of in Superhero fiction, so to treat that comment like it is ridiculous is inherently unfair.

[Superlad93]

Right, but you haven't actually explained what the allegory is with Jon in Bendis's run.

What would be the point at this juncture? You've made up your mind. I'm genuinely asking.

I agree it's there with Clark (even if I don't like it), but all the allegory Bendis has mentioned that involves Jon is stuff that is presented from Clark's perspective (like the summer camp one), which works toward making Clark relatable, not Jon.

Well, yeah. That was said within the context of Clark's book, Superman. Since then over in the Legion book and even in during the end of the Unity Saga and issue 16 of Superman has some pretty great allegorical ideas that are primarily from Jon's perspective that got there for me.

[Sam]

What would be the point at this juncture? You've made up your mind. I'm genuinely asking.



Well, yeah. That was said within the context of Clark's book, Superman. Since then over in the Legion book and even in during the end of the Unity Saga and issue 16 of Superman has some pretty great allegorical ideas that are primarily from Jon's perspective that got there for me.

Cause I honestly don't see them and your vagueness about what they are really just reinforces my viewpoint rather than give an alternate perspective to consider. It may not change my mind overall, but at least I can consider the ideas.

[Superlad93]

Cause I honestly don't see them and your vagueness about what they are really just reinforces my viewpoint rather than give an alternate perspective to consider. It may not change my mind overall, but at least I can consider the ideas.

Fair enough. I'd be happy to share my POV with you if it's just to be informative.

For one, Jon, a young person, being the one that creates the United Planets really resonated with me especially with the state of our world now. The idea that Jon was taken out into what is basically the "real world" (if Earth is more or less his hometown or backyard given the scope of his powers and his dad's) when he went out into space, and instead of focusing on how different and cosmic it all was, Jon kept coming back to how at a baseline we're all the same. It really worked for me as allegory for our world, and how with each generation our world gets a little smaller in terms of how young people see our differences vs our similarities. Seeing all these adults--even Superman himself-- being overtaken my issues of the past and having it grow into actual war, and then Jon coming with this common sense idea was great. Better still was the idea that it's now up to the adults to make Jon's lofty dreams a reality.

Jon going off with the Legion is obviously comparable to going away to college. The way that he's so overwhelmed by the new sights, people, and protocol reminds me of how I felt coming to college. I even put off my orientation like Jon. And when he goes back to get Damian it's like him trying to stack on the boy that he used to be onto the man he's becoming, and it doesn't go well because he's still in visual overload mode. He even has a moment where he questions if he should say if that large aspect of who he was a child isn't supposed to be here and is contextualized differently.

Even small things like the fact that Jon is fully aware that his mom hates that he's out here, but she's determined to let her son do his own thing is something that really works for me. It's especially a big thing in today's age where more importance is being placed on kids and young adults being given room to feel out who they need to be.

Mon-El getting mad at Jon for apparently stealing his thunder, and Jon not understanding why is also something I enjoyed. And the fact that Triplicate Girl already has enough of an established dynamic with Mon-El to know that he's going to fly off in a huff really helps the idea because it's Jon coming in to a community that's already somewhat established in some dynamics before him. That feeling of possibly stepping on someone's toes at a new job, school, or whatever is there.

I also find myself anticipating the contrast between Jon going into the Legion and Jon "graduating" the Legion and coming back to the present day.

It's still a story that's unfolding and ideas that are still coming into focus, so I anticipate and look forward to more like this. Hope this helped.

[Ascended]

Jon probably is an Overwatch kid lol

One would hope he'd have such good taste.

[manwhohaseverything]

Fair enough. I'd be happy to share my POV with you if it's just to be informative.

For one, Jon, a young person, being the one that creates the United Planets really resonated with me especially with the state of our world now. The idea that Jon was taken out into what is basically the "real world" (if Earth is more or less his hometown or backyard given the scope of his powers and his dad's) when he went out into space, and instead of focusing on how different and cosmic it all was, Jon kept coming back to how at a baseline we're all the same. It really worked for me as allegory for our world, and how with each generation our world gets a little smaller in terms of how young people see our differences vs our similarities. Seeing all these adults--even Superman himself-- being overtaken my issues of the past and having it grow into actual war, and then Jon coming with this common sense idea was great. Better still was the idea that it's now up to the adults to make Jon's lofty dreams a reality.

Jon going off with the Legion is obviously comparable to going away to college. The way that he's so overwhelmed by the new sights, people, and protocol reminds me of how I felt coming to college. I even put off my orientation like Jon. And when he goes back to get Damian it's like him trying to stack on the boy that he used to be onto the man he's becoming, and it doesn't go well because he's still in visual overload mode. He even has a moment where he questions if he should say if that large aspect of who he was a child isn't supposed to be here and is contextualized differently.

Even small things like the fact that Jon is fully aware that his mom hates that he's out here, but she's determined to let her son do his own thing is something that really works for me. It's especially a big thing in today's age where more importance is being placed on kids and young adults being given room to feel out who they need to be.

Mon-El getting mad at Jon for apparently stealing his thunder, and Jon not understanding why is also something I enjoyed. And the fact that Triplicate Girl already has enough of an established dynamic with Mon-El to know that he's going to fly off in a huff really helps the idea because it's Jon coming in to a community that's already somewhat established in some dynamics before him. That feeling of possibly stepping on someone's toes at a new job, school, or whatever is there.

I also find myself anticipating the contrast between Jon going into the Legion and Jon "graduating" the Legion and coming back to the present day.

It's still a story that's unfolding and ideas that are still coming into focus, so I anticipate and look forward to more like this. Hope this helped.

The idea of the universe being like our own world and everyone being same. though great theme, doesn't Really help with relatability of the protagonist .jon being a kid, worrying about "real world" more than self interest is lofty. Kids and teens generally are lost in there own worlds most of the time.

College analogy would have worked. But, the problem still remains journey to him getting into college isn't there. People can't connect to the character itself, so how can you expect people to relate to him.As said, the journey matters.The bullet point origin isn't enough for a character like jon(something i have come to realise) . For most, he is a random kid going to college. For people to be invested they need familiarity in The first place. The adult jon has no continuation or familiarity for the readers. He behaves differently. And the setting has no mundane elements to it. The only thing mundane is jon eating corndogs With damian. Even that is a totally new thing for supersons dynamic, introduced by Bendis .

These are just allegories anyways. Jon could be written to actually go to a real college with wierd mysteries(for the fantastical elements) in campus. It would be actually relatable. For superman, the legion graduation is enough.why?Because the character itself is mythic. The only thing mythic about jon is his father.Jon isn't the sun god nor the man of tomorrow. He was a normal kid most of his life, unlike clark. Clark doesn't need to be relatable like that. Jon does is what people are saying. Why? Because jon requires arcs,clark doesn't.

[Superlad93]

on being a kid, worrying about "real world" more than self interest is lofty.

If the allegory doesn't work for you personally that's cool. If you found any of these ideas not literal enough for your liking, not in the direction you'd have wanted, or anything else, that's cool. Beyond that I'd actually love to have a pretty legit conversation about the balance of the literal and the allegorical, but I'd rather this not drag into a whole thing.

[manwhohaseverything]

If the allegory doesn't work for you personally that's cool. If you found any of these ideas not literal enough for your liking, not in the direction you'd have wanted, or anything else, that's cool. Beyond that I'd actually love to have a pretty legit conversation about the balance of the literal and the allegorical, but I'd rather this not drag into a whole thing.

I am just saying. There is a reason superman is depicted as a grown adult. Kids and humans even the most saintly, boyscoutish ones though curious about the world.generally, put themselves, their small world in front and centre.Their own self interests like a game, movie,studies, teachers.. Etc will be more on their mind than something like worldly affairs. Kids are more focused in their curiosity. I am speaking in general.