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  1. #61
    Astonishing Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    I only read the preview so is it just me or Jon doesn't sound that different from his 10-year-old self despite aging naturally albeit in a different time warp? He's not supposed to be a 17-year-old with a 10-year-old mind, isn't he?

  2. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by walk View Post
    I think one of the biggest problems with Jon age up reared its head during Legion issue 1 (after all the fan backlash I at least had to see what it'd all been for, spoiler alert I didn't think much of it bare the art) in it Jon suddenly has an apparent phobia of being in "bottle cities", even if was meant more of a joke I think it's telling that despite not having any previous established connection to Kandor Bendis struggles to characterise him outside of making broad references to well known Superman lore and 3 issues in he's already bringing in Damian because their friendship is one of the only other well known traits Jon has.

    I love Jon but when you get down to it remove he's Super powers and his a relatively normal kid, not that's a problem, I think Tomsai had masterful talent of capturing a child's voice so there was great deal of heart and authenticity to Jon and it was clear the goal was to take him on the journey into the more refined and distant individual/hero he'd eventually become as we the audience saw him grow and develop.

    It's just now suddenly stopping that journey and skipping a huge portion of it has left a less nuanced writer with little to work with other than general niceness and his own patented sarcastic, overly quippy voice that he crafts almost all the characters under him with.

    Which in itself is another can of worms as given the years of imprisonment, isolation, abuse and trauma he's supposed to have suffered, him coming out it seeming unaffected and now being this jokey, friendly, well ajusted teen makes zero sense.

    I heard Bendis try and argue its to show his great inner-strength but that rings false to me, we can endear with characters who are shown overcoming great difficulties in life but there's a difference between that and just treating great hardships as something that can beaten by thinking positively and holding onto are parents morals and I think the creator of Alias/Jessica Jones a series that deals explicitly with PTSD would understand that.

    To summarise Jon went from a character who felt very real to one who's now this confused, narratively broken, mess of a thing.
    ^this. Look at what Tomasi’s Jon went through after accidentally killing his cat, vs Bendis’s when he went through 7 years being tortured in a volcano. Nothing about the current version comes across as believable or interesting compared to before.
    I’d totally accept the change if it was done well, but it wasn’t. It was done terribly on basically every level.

  3. #63
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    I only read the preview so is it just me or Jon doesn't sound that different from his 10-year-old self despite aging naturally albeit in a different time warp? He's not supposed to be a 17-year-old with a 10-year-old mind, isn't he?
    Bendis seems to finally starting to get atleast 10 year-old jon's voice and personality right. Earlier, jon used to be written like clark by bendis. I don't want to jinx it. But, its still wierd for the reasons you specified. I would have kept the quirkyness, enthusiasm for pop culture/mangas and the energy.Given him an edge, when he gets serious. A grown up jon i imagined would be alot like dick grayson with a more sunnier personality than clark kent. A guy who has been around the block and knows his stuff including how to fight.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by DragonPiece View Post
    Isn't the idea though to eventually give Jon more characterization in this run? I don't disagree with most of what you are saying here, but we are only 3 issues in and this is a roster of over 30 characters. People would have hated on Bendis more if he did radically change Jon's character to give him more personality traits than what's doing right now, a slow build.
    The thing is if the goal was to keep Jon relatively the same then his age-up should've never of involved the passage of several years to begin with but instead been a sudden thing brought on by a science experiment gone wrong, magic or something.

    Even ignoring the Earth 3 volcano prison a child would still be a fundamentally different person after such a long passage of time.

    If I had to guess why everything in that story seems to be actively working against itself its because the original plan was for Jon to come back a radically different and much darker person like the initial preview images indicated, Bendis saw all the fan backlash, panicked and started to backpeddle in hopes that it'd might remedy the situation or at least give him something to deflect critics who were insinsiting he was "ruining Jon" but kept all the same story beats leaving the whole thing a contradictory mess.

    After reading a year of Bendis Young Justice and seeing him struggle to inject actual character into a cast of 8 I sincerely doubt he'll do much better with Jon and a cast of 30 but I'm sure they'll be plenty of quips so enjoy.

  5. #65
    Astonishing Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Now that you mention that, the solicitation cover showing angry Jon fits someone who's been tortured better, he may even start blaming his father for not finding him, not unlike Arkham Knight Jason Todd.

  6. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by DragonPiece View Post
    Isn't the idea though to eventually give Jon more characterization in this run? I don't disagree with most of what you are saying here, but we are only 3 issues in and this is a roster of over 30 characters. People would have hated on Bendis more if he did radically change Jon's character to give him more personality traits than what's doing right now, a slow build.
    Then he should have told a different story. Are we supposed to feel bad that he wrote himself into a corner? I have no sympathy for bad writing.
    Last edited by OpaqueGiraffe17; 01-14-2020 at 04:38 PM.

  7. #67
    Extraordinary Member DragonPiece's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    Now that you mention that, the solicitation cover showing angry Jon fits someone who's been tortured better, he may even start blaming his father for not finding him, not unlike Arkham Knight Jason Todd.
    You may not have been on the forums when the interview happened, but one of the points Bendis was saying about Jon's age up when it initially occured was the fact that Jon is still normal despite having to endure all he went throguh in space shows how great clark and lois were at raising him up to that point. It would be very out of character for Jon to suddenly start resenting his father unless a evil character got into his head or something.


    As for everyone in this thread thinking the worst about Bendis because of his past work and his writing style, think about this. He's been handling Jon for 2 years now and the most that has happened is the age up and joining the legion. And as for the legion, Jon can still come back to the present at any time, as seen with him being at his grandfather's funeral. If Bendis really wanted to ruin the chacter, he would have had plenty of time by now be the evil person you all think of him as.

  8. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by DragonPiece View Post
    You may not have been on the forums when the interview happened, but one of the points Bendis was saying about Jon's age up when it initially occured was the fact that Jon is still normal despite having to endure all he went throguh in space shows how great clark and lois were at raising him up to that point. It would be very out of character for Jon to suddenly start resenting his father unless a evil character got into his head or something.


    As for everyone in this thread thinking the worst about Bendis because of his past work and his writing style, think about this. He's been handling Jon for 2 years now and the most that has happened is the age up and joining the legion. And as for the legion, Jon can still come back to the present at any time, as seen with him being at his grandfather's funeral. If Bendis really wanted to ruin the chacter, he would have had plenty of time by now be the evil person you all think of him as.
    if he wanted them to look like great parents, they wouldn't have ditched him in outer space with a madman for no reason. And he wouldn't need to explain shit in #$%ing interviews. Bad. $#%^ing. writing.
    Last edited by OpaqueGiraffe17; 01-14-2020 at 05:04 PM.

  9. #69
    Extraordinary Member DragonPiece's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OpaqueGiraffe17 View Post
    if he wanted them to look like great parents, they wouldn't have ditched him in outer space with a madman for no reason. And he wouldn't need to explain shit in #$%ing interviews. Bad. $#%^ing. writing.
    To be fair, Clark and Lois were hesistant and did consider options before it happened. And it wasn't for no reason, they wanted Jon to grow and learn about the world. No parent in the world is perfect, they all just try do what they feel is best to their knowledge. And the point Bendis made in the interview is shown in the writing, I only brought up the quote from the interview because that person I responded to was assuming things based off a cover(which I assume is old anyways) and people on this forum tend to just run with taking wild theories and trashing Bendis for it, so i figured I'd nip it in the bud now before another train of bendis hate starts.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by DragonPiece View Post
    As for everyone in this thread thinking the worst about Bendis because of his past work and his writing style, think about this. He's been handling Jon for 2 years now and the most that has happened is the age up and joining the legion. And as for the legion, Jon can still come back to the present at any time, as seen with him being at his grandfather's funeral. If Bendis really wanted to ruin the chacter, he would have had plenty of time by now be the evil person you all think of him as.
    Your last sentence is worded a bit funny, are you saying we think Jon is now evil or that we think Bendis is evil? Because if it's the later your being a bit overdramtic don't you think?

    No ones actually attacking Bendis as a person were just discussing what we think of his work.

    But no having broken it down myself I can safely say his handling of Jon's story has been objectively quite flawed from a basic narrative perspective and have actually offered ways in which it could've been improved.
    Last edited by walk; 01-14-2020 at 06:08 PM.

  11. #71
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    Heck I'll even take a stab at cleaning up the entire Jon age-up plot.

    Firstly instead Jon going with Jor El for seemingly no reason and Lois and Clark inexplicitly agreeing to it create a more plausible scenario.

    Jon powers have suddenly gone amok, he's having mini-Solar Flares at random times causing massive destruction and Clark is stomped on how to fix him. Jor El arrives and offers to take Jon off world where they'll have the advantage of being able to put him into the vaccum of space quickly should he have an attack while using his more vast knowledge of Kryptonian biology to come up with a cure.

    Clark is of course reluctant and wishes to go but a current crisis and his responsibilities as Superman and to the League prevent him and creates nice bit of personal drama where Clark is being forced to choose between his role as a hero and that of a father. Lois again agrees to go so at least one of them will be with Jon.

    Lois doesn't suddenly bow-out after a weekend but instead Jon has a particularly strong attack one day damaging the ship and its communication systems making it inhospitable to the human Lois forcing Jor El to teleport her back home. Why she doesn't immediately contact Clark once back on Earth but instead actively starts hiding from her husband? I don't know, that was a choice.

    Eventually during their space travels Jor El realises that artificially aging Jon may be the solution to curing him, after a long discussion weighing the pros and cons Jon agrees and they go through with the procedure, soon after Rogol and Zod attack and Jor El teleports Jon back home to save him while he holds them off.

    Once back Jon reunites with parents, explains everything and it's now its a save Jor El mission (none of that cringy "Grandpa crazy" noise) and everything more or less plays out the same from there.

    There Lois and Clark actually remain believable good parents, you have your 17 year old Jon with the same personality and in my scenario Jon and Lois actually bonded and grew close with Jor El during their travels so there more of sense of loss when he dies in the end.
    Last edited by walk; 01-14-2020 at 06:54 PM.

  12. #72
    Extraordinary Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by walk View Post
    Heck I'll even take a stab at cleaning up the entire Jon age-up plot.

    Firstly instead Jon going with Jor El for seemingly no reason and Lois and Clark inexplicitly agreeing to it create a more plausible scenario.

    Jon powers have suddenly gone amok, he's having mini-Solar Flares at random times causing massive destruction and Clark is stomped on how to fix him. Jor El arrives and offers to take Jon off world where they'll have the advantage of being able to put him into the vaccum of space quickly should he have an attack while using his more vast knowledge of Kryptonian biology to come up with a cure.

    Clark is of course reluctant and wishes to go but a current crisis and his responsibilities as Superman and to the League prevent him and creates nice bit of personal drama where Clark is being forced to choose between his role as a hero and that of a father. Lois again agrees to go so at least one of them will be with Jon.

    Lois doesn't suddenly bow-out after a weekend but instead Jon has a particularly strong attack one day damaging the ship and its communication systems making it inhospitable to the human Lois forcing Jor El to teleport her back home. Why she doesn't immediately contact Clark once back on Earth but instead actively starts hiding from her husband? I don't know, that was a choice.

    Eventually during their space travels Jor El realises that artificially aging Jon may be the solution to curing him, after a long discussion weighing the pros and cons Jon agrees and they go through with the procedure, soon after Rogol and Zod attack and Jor El teleports Jon back home to save him while he holds them off.

    Once back Jon reunites with parents, explains everything and it's now its a save Jor El mission (none of that cringy "Grandpa crazy" noise) and everything more or less plays out the same from there.

    There Lois and Clark actually remain believable good parents, you have your 17 year old Jon with the same personality and in my scenario Jon and Lois actually bonded and grew close with Jor El during their travels so there more of sense of loss when he dies in the end.
    While I wouldn't be overly thrilled, it works far better as a narrative and the characters far less OOC (though it still leaves the question of Jor-El in the first place, and Lois still looks like the cheating wife/bad mother for not telling Clark). And Jon would be a kid stuck in a teens body, leaving room to undo the age-up without much issue (found a way to stop the flares, making him no longer in danger of blowing up).

  13. #73
    Mighty Member Blue22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DragonPiece View Post
    To be fair, Clark and Lois were hesistant and did consider options before it happened. And it wasn't for no reason, they wanted Jon to grow and learn about the world. No parent in the world is perfect, they all just try do what they feel is best to their knowledge. And the point Bendis made in the interview is shown in the writing
    There was nothing, literally nothing, Jon could have or did learn from Jor-El that he wasn't already in the process of learning from Clark (who's already taken the boy out on trips into space). Given everything they knew about Jor-El prior to this (which was next to nothing, aside from his stint as Mr. Oz) there should have been no hesitation at all. It should have been a flat out "No. Get out of my house". If Jon wants to spend the summer having adventures in space, it should have been with people that his parents know and trust. Like any of the five or six Green Lanterns that serve on the League.

    Jor-El may have been Clark's father but at that point, he was nothing but a dangerous stranger to them and yet they still trusted him with their child. And low behold, several terrible things ended up happening to said child as a result.

    There's not enough "growth" in the world that justifies letting your ten year old go into space with a man who's been unstable since the day you met him. Not even in the case of superhero parents. He was a ten year old boy who's only been a hero for about a year. The hell did he need to go on a trip to find himself for? Because the Titans rejected him (for reasons they explained were not his fault)? Because he had some deep seeded fear of not living up to his Dad's legacy? Oh fucking well. Neither of those are good enough reasons them to do what they did to him. This was not one of those "tough decisions every parent has to make". It goes beyond them not being perfect parents. This was just reckless endangerment for no reason. Even more so than letting him be a hero in the first place. At least with that, he usually always had his Dad with him.

    The "growth" bullshit was just a weak excuse Bendis gave because he, for some reason, couldn't think of any other way for Jon to be put in that situation. Even though there are a million other scenarios that wouldn't make Lois and Clark look even more neglectful and uncaring than Bruce Wayne. At the end of the day, this will always feel like Bendis just wanted to have his cake and eat it too by both keeping Jon around as the poster boy for his new project, while taking the burden of parenthood off of Lois and Clark. This wasn't done with care or respect for any of these characters.

    It's just like how he handled Civil War II and Iceman's coming out. For some reason, he can't do things unless they involve all parties acting in the absolute dumbest and out of character ways possible.
    Last edited by Blue22; 01-14-2020 at 07:18 PM.

  14. #74
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DragonPiece View Post
    You may not have been on the forums when the interview happened, but one of the points Bendis was saying about Jon's age up when it initially occured was the fact that Jon is still normal despite having to endure all he went throguh in space shows how great clark and lois were at raising him up to that point. It would be very out of character for Jon to suddenly start resenting his father unless a evil character got into his head or something.


    As for everyone in this thread thinking the worst about Bendis because of his past work and his writing style, think about this. He's been handling Jon for 2 years now and the most that has happened is the age up and joining the legion. And as for the legion, Jon can still come back to the present at any time, as seen with him being at his grandfather's funeral. If Bendis really wanted to ruin the chacter, he would have had plenty of time by now be the evil person you all think of him as.
    Actually, i had complained then about the lack of repercussions. I wanted jon to atleast leave his parents because of ptsd. Ultraman and ultrawoman looks like his parents. Not to mention that, the parents were irresponsible and lead to jon's suffering. I saw comicstorian channel summing it up as lois being nothing but a story hungry reporter who would risk both her husband and child. If that's the general perception of the characters then, no bendis hasn't portrayed them as great parents. It's the zack snyder conundrum.

  15. #75
    Extraordinary Member DragonPiece's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Actually, i had complained then about the lack of repercussions. I wanted jon to atleast leave his parents because of ptsd. Ultraman and ultrawoman looks like his parents. Not to mention that, the parents were irresponsible and lead to jon's suffering. I saw comicstorian channel summing it up as lois being nothing but a story hungry reporter who would risk both her husband and child. If that's the general perception of the characters then, no bendis hasn't portrayed them as great parents. It's the zack snyder conundrum.
    That could have been interesting,and actually I forgot Lois was initially with Jon when he was with Jor-El. Didn't she see he was handling things and better suited for space travel without her, because she would have been a hinderance? And obviously, she thought Jor El was trust worthy enough at that point or she wouldn't have done it.

    But I digress, this is just how I am taking the story and taking what Bendis is saying. If others choose to just stay annoyed and just keep wishing for kid Jon to come back, more power to you!

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