Karen Starr: Power Girl Appreciation 2020

[TheManhunterfromMars]

I really need Power Girl x Mr. Terrific again, but... you know... WELL DONE, well developed. Their relationship was weird, they clearly got intimate, but she denied being with Michael as a couple

[achilles]

I really need Power Girl x Mr. Terrific again, but... you know... WELL DONE, well developed. Their relationship was weird, they clearly got intimate, but she denied being with Michael as a couple

Oh God, please no! That whole episode was worth forgetting, from beginning to end. The entire Mr. Terrific series plus Worlds' Finest, a title that never delivered on its name. It gave the worst version of PG save only the crazy homicidal one Johns gave us in Thy Kingdom Come, or the whiny version he gave us through most of JSA. So, the third worst is what I'm saying. Even the Atlantean one was better, and that's saying something. I just don't want to be reminded of that at all, ever. The took two cool characters and nearly ruined them.

[Ascended]

Yeah, I don't like the idea of Holt in a relationship. I like him as either the eternal widower or (if he must have a love interest) getting together with the Mrs. Holt from an alternate reality where she became Terrific after Michael died (check out The Terrifics, great book). Not everyone needs a love interest and I feel like Holt is one of them. So is Karen for that matter, but I still think she'd benefit a lot from Powerwing.

I mean, I dont really have anything against Holt and Karen so much as I don't want to see Holt with anybody at all, unless its his dead wife's doppelganger. Which, now that I write it out, seems pretty weird......

[achilles]

Yeah, I don't like the idea of Holt in a relationship. I like him as either the eternal widower or (if he must have a love interest) getting together with the Mrs. Holt from an alternate reality where she became Terrific after Michael died (check out The Terrifics, great book). Not everyone needs a love interest and I feel like Holt is one of them. So is Karen for that matter, but I still think she'd benefit a lot from Powerwing.

I mean, I dont really have anything against Holt and Karen so much as I don't want to see Holt with anybody at all, unless its his dead wife's doppelganger. Which, now that I write it out, seems pretty weird......

Hey, comics! They're at their best when they're weird and wonderful!

[TheManhunterfromMars]

So, besides this "powerwing" (not a fan, at all), any other guy or list of guys who could be power girl´s boyfriend/lover do you ship with?

[Ascended]

I've seen Kyle Rayner's name thrown out there.

And Jason Todd's.

Wonder Woman's. And Fire, too.

Doc Mid-Nite.

I heard one guy suggest Jimmy Olsen once. I thought it had potential.

[Robanker]

Doctor Mid-Nite, my reasoning in the prior thread:

I could have sworn Jimmy, Justin and Amanda were sowing the seeds for her to take interest in Doctor Mid-Nite back in their run... The seventh issue, if I recall. The Vaartox one. She bombs in on one of his solo encounters to just hang out, she jokes about her love life which she generally doesn't do, and he's in Lois' place on the homage cover. I know, I'm probably reading into it, but it reminded me of someone she'd be interested in being juxtaposed with the exact opposite, a guy so toxic in masculinity he's weaponized it. But I like it primarily because he's quite opposite of her in terms of personality. She's louder, more aggressive and with some real sass to her when she's not angsting over her lost worlds. Pieter is a quieter, more introspective person driven by fact, faith and generally quite patient. Their power sets are inverses of one another (raw physical prowess versus intellect and precision) and each could help develop the other in ways not generally organic to themselves. Of course there's also the sweet irony of a character often referred to for her figure and naught else being paired with the blind man is fun in itself.

It allows for a serious take as well as some fun and comedy, which is a good place for PG to live.

He's about two tiers below her in popularity if I had to guess, and generally has no real connection to any superheroes romantically (sans a short relationship with Black Canary), so I can see it having a more lasting impact on each of their histories. That said, I did love the Terrific/Mid-Nite brain trust and that may get awkward since she and Michael briefly dated post-Flashpoint. Who knows anymore?

I'm also fine with Kara just being happy single. That's increasingly rare these days.

I still hold that she's probably better off single than with most heroes. She's shown interest in Hal Jordan, Arthur Curry, Carter Hall, Superman (before she was a Kryptonian again), Val-Zod and Michael Holt and literally all of those fall flat for me. I don't see her developing an interest in women, so I don't know. Doctor Mid-Nite and Nightwing are the two I feel can work, but your mileage may vary.


Jimmy Olsen I kind of like, but I guess it's because I think Jimmy is a pretty weird dude who manages to stay humble and laid-back despite what happens to him; eternally low maintenance and would treat Karen well. She could do worse, but most the fandom would see that as her slumming it (which they'd likely treat Doc as too).

Yeah, I don't like the idea of Holt in a relationship. I like him as either the eternal widower or (if he must have a love interest) getting together with the Mrs. Holt from an alternate reality where she became Terrific after Michael died (check out The Terrifics, great book). Not everyone needs a love interest and I feel like Holt is one of them. So is Karen for that matter, but I still think she'd benefit a lot from Powerwing.

I mean, I dont really have anything against Holt and Karen so much as I don't want to see Holt with anybody at all, unless its his dead wife's doppelganger. Which, now that I write it out, seems pretty weird......

Yeah, Michael's only unique trait is he's a widower. Without that he's just a smart tech guy. There's tons of those. He had a more interesting dynamic with Sasha, but I don't know, Michael Holt's love life is one I've never really been able to wrap my head around. Before he has a lover, I need to see him actually confront and move past Paula.

Karen being single is fine. Not every hero needs to have a love interest and Karen's cool enough to stand on her own. To be honest, I wish conversations about her didn't keep swinging back to shipping, but that's just the way these threads go sometimes. :/

[achilles]

Doctor Mid-Nite, my reasoning in the prior thread:



I still hold that she's probably better off single than with most heroes. She's shown interest in Hal Jordan, Arthur Curry, Carter Hall, Superman (before she was a Kryptonian again), Val-Zod and Michael Holt and literally all of those fall flat for me. I don't see her developing an interest in women, so I don't know. Doctor Mid-Nite and Nightwing are the two I feel can work, but your mileage may vary.


Jimmy Olsen I kind of like, but I guess it's because I think Jimmy is a pretty weird dude who manages to stay humble and laid-back despite what happens to him; eternally low maintenance and would treat Karen well. She could do worse, but most the fandom would see that as her slumming it (which they'd likely treat Doc as too).



Yeah, Michael's only unique trait is he's a widower. Without that he's just a smart tech guy. There's tons of those. He had a more interesting dynamic with Sasha, but I don't know, Michael Holt's love life is one I've never really been able to wrap my head around. Before he has a lover, I need to see him actually confront and move past Paula.

Karen being single is fine. Not every hero needs to have a love interest and Karen's cool enough to stand on her own. To be honest, I wish conversations about her didn't keep swinging back to shipping, but that's just the way these threads go sometimes. :/

I agree about the shipping thing; I'd rather DC just really put effort into developing her as a character and getting her some great stories before shipping her. Plus, I'm not really feeling shipping her with any extant DC character I can think of. Even Nightwing has problems, among them offending all the ones who ship him with someone else. But also, while IMO their characters do work well together, they can do that in team-ups without the shipping. And...PG really doesn't gain much from that ship, and he gains nothing. What PG needs is exposure and great stories, plus development of HER character, without having to split focus.

[Korath]

Yeah, I don't like the idea of Holt in a relationship. I like him as either the eternal widower or (if he must have a love interest) getting together with the Mrs. Holt from an alternate reality where she became Terrific after Michael died (check out The Terrifics, great book). Not everyone needs a love interest and I feel like Holt is one of them. So is Karen for that matter, but I still think she'd benefit a lot from Powerwing.

I mean, I dont really have anything against Holt and Karen so much as I don't want to see Holt with anybody at all, unless its his dead wife's doppelganger. Which, now that I write it out, seems pretty weird......

Well, now that Paula is an Angel, it may be kind of hard for them to hook up

[TheManhunterfromMars]

I´m seeing the mostly Power Girl ships are with caucasian boys... but the one I suggest, no one wants it. Interesting. About Michael, I just think it limits his character the thing with "eternal widower", I´m just not a fan of always reading the same situation, his relationship with Sasha Bordeaux was pretty cute. Let him going forward with his life... and don´t understand the problem with love interests, Karen never had any real interest, why not giving her one? Who says it can´t help her own character development? like friendships and even family, it may help, maybe even better.

[achilles]

I´m seeing the mostly Power Girl ships are with caucasian boys... but the one I suggest, no one wants it. Interesting. About Michael, I just think it limits his character the thing with "eternal widower", I´m just not a fan of always reading the same situation, his relationship with Sasha Bordeaux was pretty cute. Let him going forward with his life... and don´t understand the problem with love interests, Karen never had any real interest, why not giving her one? Who says it can´t help her own character development? like friendships and even family, it may help, maybe even better.

The problem with it was that they introduced the idea by looking in on them after the implied...fun. That's it, no build-up at all, no even hint they ever liked each other that way, and that's the first we ever see nu52 Power Girl, who then goes on to be on the hunt for anything male, older than 15 and younger than dead. Which she also had never done before.

You have to admit, no one would be shipping them at all but for that regrettable move, born of laziness I hope. It's no different from any of the other romances they've done or implied, and I don't want to see any of them picked up on. Not Hal, not Aquaman, who at least had SOME build-up, not Hawkman, (one kiss out of the blue), not Doc Midnite, (this one totally fan inspired, never mentioned in the comics). I don't favor even mentioning Kara's love life for a long time, and when they do, I want them to show the readers how it builds, rather than show it to us like that.

[TheManhunterfromMars]

I know you all are gonna kill me for saying this but... I don´t agree with "she never should be on the hunt for any male", Power Girl is an adult version, from another earth, yes, but still "Kara", damn, DC even says she´s Superman Earth 2´s cousin, and on new 52! she literally was Supergirl before being Power Girl... and Kara, Supergirl, had many boyfriends. What it´s clearly wrong is trying to make Power Girl asexual or even lesbian/bisexual as some people want it happen. If Power Girl is just Kara but adult, it makes sense she being on the hunt.

[achilles]

I know you all are gonna kill me for saying this but... I don´t agree with "she never should be on the hunt for any male", Power Girl is an adult version, from another earth, yes, but still "Kara", damn, DC even says she´s Superman Earth 2´s cousin, and on new 52! she literally was Supergirl before being Power Girl... and Kara, Supergirl, had many boyfriends. What it´s clearly wrong is trying to make Power Girl asexual or even lesbian/bisexual as some people want it happen. If Power Girl is just Kara but adult, it makes sense she being on the hunt.

Naw, you're fine here. To be sure, PG HAS evinced interest in specific men, and men in general. No one expects adult characters to be asexual. I just happen to think there are much more important things they need to do with PG first. Also, as I said, I can't think of anyone among the male DC characters I think would help her in any way. But...she's never been defined by that. Well, except for the nu52.

[Robanker]

I´m seeing the mostly Power Girl ships are with caucasian boys... but the one I suggest, no one wants it. Interesting.

What you're implying here is not at play and you know it, dude. Don't even start this.

Her relationship with Michael took up 3 small scenes over 8 issues in his book if I recall correctly. It wasn't a well-written book and neither were those scenes, each of which framed that relationship as cold emotionally, used only for sex. She was his trophy. It begins with PG in his room one morning to show "HEY, HE'S BANGING POWER GIRL IN THIS CONTINUITY" and from then on it did nothing to service either of them. In fact, the next thing I recall is her at a party with him and behaving wildly out of character and their relationship ending when she steals some of his assets as the book is closing to go launch her own book with Helena. Eric Wallace may not have intended it, but he made PG come across like a bit of a gold digger if I recall since she used Michael for some quick action and took his stuff. Bad flippin' look, and while I like both of them, I much prefer PG and it felt like she was there to try and prop up Michael. Take the name "Karen Starr" away and she was just a stacked blonde. She didn't even have powers that we knew of, she was just being used as a crutch for Michael.

Val is a similar problem in the other direction. She is brought into his book while he's still very new, there's a quick 1-2 page flashback establishing that they knew each other as kids on Krypton, and then we come back to the present and they're holding hands, already an item. She was once again brought on to be arm candy for their character they were trying to push. Nobody likes watching their favorite character become an accessory. Look at my post history regarding PowerWing and that was my number one concern with her becoming Dick's love interest and vice versa.

Both relationships she's canonically had with Michael and Val have been ones where they do very little to build them up, they either happened off panel or rushed it in a flashback to avoid building chemistry. Most fans here have explained why they feel their ships for her work, so please explain why either means as much to you. You've done nothing to explain why that relationship helps either of them or what about it you miss so much other than, well, your posting history about shipping black males with (usually) white women. That's all well and good, but you've done nothing to explain why either relationship works for PG.

I'm sorry, but I hate when this sort of allegation gets thrown around when it's very clearly not at play.

I'm fine with Karen dating a guy of any ethnic background, but all her relationships have been failures because DC has never put the work in to establish chemistry or give fans a reason to care. It's always "hey, they hook up" or unrequited.

They just hook up and it sucks:
Hal Jordan
Carter Hall
Michael Holt
Val-Zod

Unrequited:
Superman (when she wasn't his cousin)
Aquaman (as far as I know)

She had a kid for a minute and I don't remember who the babydaddy was, but that clearly wasn't well-received either.

But it's not just Michael and Val. You're picking from her established love interests and literally all of them don't work. If it means so much to you for PG to date someone who isn't white, who do you suggest that the fandom hasn't already been soured on from poor execution? Don't just cast a heavy accusation, dude. That's really not cool.

[achilles]

What you're implying here is not at play and you know it, dude. Don't even start this.

Her relationship with Michael took up 3 small scenes over 8 issues in his book if I recall correctly. It wasn't a well-written book and neither were those scenes, each of which framed that relationship as cold emotionally, used only for sex. She was his trophy. It begins with PG in his room one morning to show "HEY, HE'S BANGING POWER GIRL IN THIS CONTINUITY" and from then on it did nothing to service either of them. In fact, the next thing I recall is her at a party with him and behaving wildly out of character and their relationship ending when she steals some of his assets as the book is closing to go launch her own book with Helena. Eric Wallace may not have intended it, but he made PG come across like a bit of a gold digger if I recall since she used Michael for some quick action and took his stuff. Bad flippin' look, and while I like both of them, I much prefer PG and it felt like she was there to try and prop up Michael. Take the name "Karen Starr" away and she was just a stacked blonde. She didn't even have powers that we knew of, she was just being used as a crutch for Michael.

Val is a similar problem in the other direction. She is brought into his book while he's still very new, there's a quick 1-2 page flashback establishing that they knew each other as kids on Krypton, and then we come back to the present and they're holding hands, already an item. She was once again brought on to be arm candy for their character they were trying to push. Nobody likes watching their favorite character become an accessory. Look at my post history regarding PowerWing and that was my number one concern with her becoming Dick's love interest and vice versa.

Both relationships she's canonically had with Michael and Val have been ones where they do very little to build them up, they either happened off panel or rushed it in a flashback to avoid building chemistry. Most fans here have explained why they feel their ships for her work, so please explain why either means as much to you. You've done nothing to explain why that relationship helps either of them or what about it you miss so much other than, well, your posting history about shipping black males with (usually) white women. That's all well and good, but you've done nothing to explain why either relationship works for PG.

I'm sorry, but I hate when this sort of allegation gets thrown around when it's very clearly not at play.

I'm fine with Karen dating a guy of any ethnic background, but all her relationships have been failures because DC has never put the work in to establish chemistry or give fans a reason to care. It's always "hey, they hook up" or unrequited.

They just hook up and it sucks:
Hal Jordan
Carter Hall
Michael Holt
Val-Zod

Unrequited:
Superman (when she wasn't his cousin)
Aquaman (as far as I know)

She had a kid for a minute and I don't remember who the babydaddy was, but that clearly wasn't well-received either.

But it's not just Michael and Val. You're picking from her established love interests and literally all of them don't work. If it means so much to you for PG to date someone who isn't white, who do you suggest that the fandom hasn't already been soured on from poor execution? Don't just cast a heavy accusation, dude. That's really not cool.

I think the key word here, and the one I've been searching for without knowing it, is "accessory". That's what all of Kara's love interests have made her IMO, and will make her until she's a solid character herself. As I've said, THAT require a lot of work and time. She's perhaps the most major character DC has with no real solid origin story and no great stories ABOUT her. She's been in some to be sure, but she was never the focus.

Meanwhile, giving her love interests while she's basically tabula rasa only makes her that accessory, (good job on that BTW, it expresses perfectly what I feel DC makes her, not only in that way, but by marginalizing her to build up other characters).