Karen Starr: Power Girl Appreciation 2020

[achilles]

Problem: both women are straight, and Helena clearly likes too much men.

Yeah, having an over 40 year publishing history with absolutely no hint that she likes other women that way, and plenty hints she likes men would make that not work. But PG herself needs work before writers start shipping her. Origin story, a real one this time, in a mini that tells nothing else, with time on Krypton, and her early days on Earth-whatever they decide. A few stories that would be her DKR or Batman Year One, or her For The Man Who Has Everything...she has no real great stories yet. Give her some, a good and detailed origin story, (sorry, a few panels here and there, mostly designed to introduce ANOTHER character, or one panel of her jumping up out of her ship and saying "Hi, cuz" don't cut it). Every other DC character has a more detailed and longer origin story it seems, now she needs one. And a real supporting cast, and her own DC fictional city, NOT New York which seemed to be the setting of her solo mostly because Palmiotti and company live there and like it.

Sort out that stuff, and THEN ship her with someone. Though yes, I do have my own suggestions for that, (including Lar Gand and Captain Comet). So there you have it, a long, rambling post about how you shouldn't ship Kara, ending with shipping suggestions...

[achilles]

The popular choice on the last thread was Nightwing. While I could argue his points, I'll leave that to Ascended as he's as close to the captain of this ship as you'll find and I'm not looking to mutiny with this little sleep.

I kind of see that one, they did seem to have some nice banter. But it's never going to happen, DC will never do it, so it remains the realm I'm sure of fan fiction, never to see the light of day in an actual comic book.

[Agent Z]

Not a huge fan of UH, especially the one in the PG solo; that one seemed...not menacing enough, and a bit too jokey. But...I wouldn't mind seeing a story teaming Power Girl with Cyborg, which AFAIK has never happened before, especially if they take the idea that Robinson, Johns, and a few others have that PG is in fact a genius alien with the knowledge of her home planet so that it isn't all Cyborg talking down to her about tech. In other words, very much NOT the nu52 PG who Levitz had as an idiot unable to figure out Linux. Rather the Johns one who as a throwaway fact knows something like 9,000 languages, a thing never again mention after that one note in his mini, or the Robinson version who wowed Mr. Terrific by instantly understanding a circuit diagram of some sort of super science that he had spent day designing, (as did Supergirl).

I am in fact in favor of having her team up with character she hasn't interacted much with before. Back to villains though, Ultraman? Maybe give her a go at Mongul? Don't much know after that, probably need to create some new ones just for her I should think.

I think the Ultra Humanite was pretty scary when he swapped brains with Atlee.

For other villains, you have Rana, the space alien who copied Karen's powers and Crash, the arms dealer who got his body transferred into a robot.

I also recall reading somewhere about some metahumans who were empowered by an Atlantean sorcerer that Karen fought but that was from the period where they wanted her to be an Atlantean.

Adding more female rogues would be nice. Preferably ones who aren't femme fatales, misandrists, women scorned and lackeys.

The clone thing...could work, but they really needed to scale it up IMO. They needed to make it an epic story and establish just how dangerous clone Kara was before unleashing her on PG. They had a few panels of a dream sequence that sort of revealed what a threat clone PG was, but it was after all just a dream sequence and as such lost it's impact. They actually needed to go there and have evil clone Kara kill some folks...perhaps a whole lot, and unleash on other heroes, or even alien races. Because that didn't happen, the resultant fight also lost it's power.

I think having her be a threat to Karen alone would suffice. Jobbing out other heroes to her would be too much.

I don't know if this has come up often but I do think that it might be okay to have Karen use lethal on occasion if the situation calls for it. Not as the standard and certainly not the first resort but I think there should be some instances, like a super powered clone going around killing people, that option should be taken.

[TheManhunterfromMars]

I strongly desagree, Power Girl deserves a place on DC, but having own foes or solo comic book series it seems unnecessary, not all the characters need so much focus on prota level, some characters like her are better being team players with occasional looks to what they do in private lifes. (What JSA used to show) Power Girl has too many stories about how independient is she, she needs a sexual/love life, if it is with Val Zod (Black Superman) better, she needs development and maybe starring mini/maxi series, not even Superboy or Supergirl has many foes or iconic stories.... why Karen.

[achilles]

I strongly desagree, Power Girl deserves a place on DC, but having own foes or solo comic book series it seems unnecessary, not all the characters need so much focus on prota level, some characters like her are better being team players with occasional looks to what they do in private lifes. (What JSA used to show) Power Girl has too many stories about how independient is she, she needs a sexual/love life, if it is with Val Zod (Black Superman) better, she needs development and maybe starring mini/maxi series, not even Superboy or Supergirl has many foes or iconic stories.... why Karen.

Superboy and Supergirl may not have huge rogues' galleries by the standard of say Batman or Superman or Flash...but at least they have one. All PG has are joke second rate characters, which in turn leads DC to keep treating her as a joke, and easily dismissed. I'm not looking for a detailed look at her private life; we got WAY too much of that in the Palmiotti/Gray run. I AM looking for a real origin story and associated characters; both supporting cast and bad guys.

And have her stay away from Val Zod, a particularly useless character for a Kryptonian. And it would revive memories of her worst period, the nu52, which in her case is certainly better left forgotten. Too many stories about how independent she is? That, more than anything else, is her defining characteristic. She takes no flack from anyone, and absolutely will stand up to anyone who she thinks is wrong, or evil. She can't have too many stories that show that.

Really, her sex life is about the last thing that she needs. Tend to that only AFTER fixing her other problems is what I'd advocate, otherwise you're dooming her to eternal tenth tier status, not a fate a character who is essentially Supergirl should have. And you make her first on the expendable list.

Recall that DC very very briefly seemed to think she was going to be one of the next big things with their in house ads promoting her, Damian Wayne, and Cyborg, along with maybe another character as the "New Icons". They pushed Damian and Cyborg VERY heavily, but did nothing at all beyond those ads to promote PG. And it's impossible to deny that there are NO classic Power Girl focused stories. And she has NO defined role that makes her at all different from Supergirl, or functionally different from Superman....and if she's in competition with those much better defined characters with vastly bigger fan bases, she's going to come off the worse for the wear----she NEEDS to have a role in the DCU that ONLY she can do to coexist successfully alongside them without being lost in their shadows. Thing is...those two HAVE detailed origins stories, in fact multiple ones. PG has none. They have rogues' galleries that aren't useless or embarrassing. PG doesn't. They have classic stories ABOUT them, PG has none. These are the things that have been holding her back IMO.

Give her a boyfriend later, after she gets those things, is all I'm saying about that.

[achilles]

I think the Ultra Humanite was pretty scary when he swapped brains with Atlee.

For other villains, you have Rana, the space alien who copied Karen's powers and Crash, the arms dealer who got his body transferred into a robot.

I also recall reading somewhere about some metahumans who were empowered by an Atlantean sorcerer that Karen fought but that was from the period where they wanted her to be an Atlantean.

Adding more female rogues would be nice. Preferably ones who aren't femme fatales, misandrists, women scorned and lackeys.



I think having her be a threat to Karen alone would suffice. Jobbing out other heroes to her would be too much.

I don't know if this has come up often but I do think that it might be okay to have Karen use lethal on occasion if the situation calls for it. Not as the standard and certainly not the first resort but I think there should be some instances, like a super powered clone going around killing people, that option should be taken.

Taking the last item first, AFAIK, Power Girl has killed someone....once, in a horrible story written by exactly who you'd expect to get Karen totally wrong and have her kill, and then later in the same story, whine and cry, and need rescue. Thy Kingdom Come, by Johns, where she sort of killed Earth 2 Joker, (by letting him accidently kill himself by trying to use his joke buzzer on her, which obviously didn't work out to well for him. Any other writer would have had her save him.

As for jobbing to other heroes, Power Girl is DC's champion for doing that. Under Johns, who wrote her the most in the modern era in JSA, she constantly needed rescue by other, very often less powerful heroes. Or take other stories where writers had her needing encouragement from other heroes to do the hard task....which again is completely contrary to what her character is all about. She may not be as inspirational as Superman or Wonder Woman, but she absolutely doesn't need anyone's encouragement to go at it to the bitter end; she does NOT give up.

As you probably can tell, I really, really want her to return to the DCU, and come to live action for the first time in some form, and get a better chance at animation; but I also want it to be done right, so please forgive me if I come across as a bit...passionate about the subject. She is IMO a character with big potential that DC and WB have to date largely squandered, but can be a great A or B list character.

As for the first item, its done very often in DC. The badguy who walks through other heroes...Superman/Doomsday. Wonder Woman has had this very often as well, or the Flashes or GLs. It works. It may be a somewhat cheap trick, but it does work to get the bad guy over before throwing him over to have a go at the hero; so I don't see why it won't work with PG. And given how often PG jobs to other heroes, I'd say karma owes her one.

I would use absolutely nothing from her solo tile by Palmiotti and Gray, or from Winick's run. None of the other characters or situations therein IMO are worth keeping. UH maybe could be a minor PG bad guy, but NOT this version, who IMO wouldn't scare anyone. But no one else.

[Celgress]

Problem: both women are straight, and Helena clearly likes too much men.

A valid point so without a major character retcon (or two) this couldn't work. Although they could always be a couple in an AU setting. The Multiverse is full of infinite storytelling possibilities (which is why I love it ).

[Ascended]

The popular choice on the last thread was Nightwing. While I could argue his points, I'll leave that to Ascended as he's as close to the captain of this ship as you'll find and I'm not looking to mutiny with this little sleep.

lol I don't think I'm gonna take offense if anyone else wants to preach the brilliance of Power-Wing.

My rants about this are probably easy to find. We're what, four or five pages into this thread already? I've probably already talked about it here! Long story short; Karen seems like the best of both Babs and Kori, and Dick is pretty much everybody's type.

Yeah, same with Vartox (more of a nuisance, but hey). Satanna was also lifted from Hawkman, but they seemingly have no use for her in his stories so she could take her as well since that worked well in her solo. Winnick cloned her, and while I don't like clones or evil mirrors all that much, she can be built up. Over in another thread, Superboy-Prime was suggested and that works too, though as an evil doppelganger I'm not his biggest fan.

Satanna was.....okay, for like a little mini-boss; someone annoying but not really a threat. But it wouldn't bother me if she never fought Karen again.

Superboy Prime isn't a bad idea.....I mean, there's some good parallels to pull from there; they're both from the multiverse, they both have anger problems, they both have to deal with the legacy of a Superman who isn't their's......I think Prime could work pretty well as a rogue for Karen, but his power level is way too crazy for it. Last I knew, he was a "we need a whole team of high level super humans" kind of powerful. Weaken him down to normal Kryptonian levels and he'd probably work though.

And PG is about as close to the Super family as I want Prime to get. So yeah, I could see it working.

[achilles]

Power-Wing?! Great name for a ship!

[mathew101281]

Powergirl/Nightwing will never work because at best she’s third string as far as Nightwing pairings go. It’s never going to be as iconic as the Nightwing/Batgirl or Nightwing/Starfire pairings are. It’s just going to windup “Just there” for a few years at most then get relegated to the “remember when they tried to hook Nightwing up with...” trash heap of history.

I’m fine with PG and Val. It’s the rest of Powergirl’s supporting characters that need work. They need to focus on the things that make her different from Supergirl.

[TheManhunterfromMars]

So cringe the idea Power Girl x Nightwing... no thanks.

[Ascended]

You people lack vision.

It's cool. Others doubted. They saw the light. So too shall you all!

One of us! One of us! One of us!

[Robanker]

Powergirl/Nightwing will never work because at best she’s third string as far as Nightwing pairings go. It’s never going to be as iconic as the Nightwing/Batgirl or Nightwing/Starfire pairings are. It’s just going to windup “Just there” for a few years at most then get relegated to the “remember when they tried to hook Nightwing up with...” trash heap of history.

I’m fine with PG and Val. It’s the rest of Powergirl’s supporting characters that need work. They need to focus on the things that make her different from Supergirl.

See, I found Val duller than dirt. I was glad they dropped that relationship, but that whole New 52 Earth 2 era was pretty bad for PG.

Power-Wing is the superior ship.

[Badou]

Powergirl/Nightwing will never work because at best she’s third string as far as Nightwing pairings go. It’s never going to be as iconic as the Nightwing/Batgirl or Nightwing/Starfire pairings are. It’s just going to windup “Just there” for a few years at most then get relegated to the “remember when they tried to hook Nightwing up with...” trash heap of history.

I’m fine with PG and Val. It’s the rest of Powergirl’s supporting characters that need work. They need to focus on the things that make her different from Supergirl.

I don't think DC would ever pair the two because of how DC treats the Nightwing character, but I think expecting it to replace Dick's relationship with Barbara or Starfire is the wrong way to look at it. Obviously that would never happen, but it is more about trying to build Power Girl's character back up and giving her deeper ties to established DC characters. The only way Power Girl has been appearing at all in DC books the last few years is because of her friendship with Harley Quinn. So those ties and connections are important.

Talking about her rogues or supporting cast feels a bit much when she can't even appear consistently in an ongoing DC series. So a romance with a Nightwing could be a way to increase her influence, and also lot of fun if done properly. As both characters have similar upbeat and outgoing personalities, are two of the most attractive heroes in the DCU, and fall into similar roles within their hero families with growing up and creating a new hero identity for themselves. So they have a lot of similar experiences writers could use. A romance with Val again isn't going to do anything for the character with where she is currently. You build her up more and then use characters like Val.

Dick hasn't dated Starfire in 25 years and hasn't dated Barbara in like 13 years, but with them all having so much baggage you can't really have them start a new romance from the ground up with each other. So Power Girl would be something fresh. It would eventually end but it could transition into a good friendship between the two, and gives Power Girl a direct connection to a Batman family character with Helena Wayne not being around consistently. Dick is the only main Batman family member without his own Superman family connection. So it fits. Maybe the dynamic could change to a Batman and Zatanna kind of dynamic where it is a close friendship with underlines of romantic tension that people enjoy, but no one expects it to replace his relationship with Catwoman.

[achilles]

See, I found Val duller than dirt. I was glad they dropped that relationship, but that whole New 52 Earth 2 era was pretty bad for PG.

Power-Wing is the superior ship.

Val was dull. It kind of said it all in that title when Val took his totally useless shot at Darkseid, being about as effective as a kitten, while he was calling himself "Superman", which Darkseid mocked, and then Karen took HER shot at Darkseid and yells at him that SHE'S her world's Superman. And yes, she was. Except for the "man" part. And that was the inferior nu52 PG.