Karen Starr: Power Girl Appreciation 2020

[achilles]

Well in Karen's defense, Linux is dumb.

And the New52 Karen was a travesty, especially considering the quality work people had been doing on her solo. I still don't get why that book was cancelled, it's sales weren't awful, Karen was in the midst of a solid push from DC, and far less popular IP's than her's got titles with the reboot. Same with Booster and Zee; those were all quality mid-level titles that didn't need to die just so we could get stuff like that "Our Army at War" title or whatever the hell it was called, or OMAC, or any of the other titles everybody knew would be cancelled within ten issues.

I'm not bothered by her being the Supergirl of her earth though, before coming to the main earth and becoming Power Girl. As long as it's treated firmly as just part of the origin and not something that has any influence now I'm fine with it. Karen *is* part of the Super family (twice-removed, but still) and it's not like this one facet is going to make or break anything.

To be fair, the actual sales of her solo weren't cancellation levels at the time, but they weren't very good, just a few shy of 18,000 around the time, trending mildly up, which is unusual, absent any big arc. I get the feeling that Flashpoint and the reboot was an excuse, and that PG just didn't then and doesn't now have any patrons at DC; no one to push for her, which seems to be how it was done there. And probably she was already planned to be a second phase introduction into the nu52 version. So really, blame Flashpoint and the nu52, and the lack of someone important there to push for her.

I think it's pretty clear at this point that she's not going to get her own solo again, not for years to come if ever. Probably not a mini, either. She's probably stuck in the JSA only, so there isn't much character work she's going to get...unless DC does relent and give her at least a mini. I don't know about digital or other platforms; I personally don't think it likely she's going to get any more exposure there than in traditional print floppy comic.

So it's JSA or bust, and even that doesn't seem likely to come next year at all.

[Stanlos]

It still annoys me that Peege suddenly started being called Karen rather than Kara by her super peers.

[Ascended]

To be fair, the actual sales of her solo weren't cancellation levels at the time, but they weren't very good, just a few shy of 18,000 around the time, trending mildly up, which is unusual, absent any big arc. I get the feeling that Flashpoint and the reboot was an excuse, and that PG just didn't then and doesn't now have any patrons at DC; no one to push for her, which seems to be how it was done there. And probably she was already planned to be a second phase introduction into the nu52 version. So really, blame Flashpoint and the nu52, and the lack of someone important there to push for her.

Oh I agree with all of that. But I still think it was bad business to let Booster, Zee, and Karen's books die. They were mid-tier sellers but expecting big numbers from those titles without someone like Johns was foolish. They had all been part of big stories in the recent past, were all building steam. You said it yourself, the book was trending upwards. In 2010, when the industry looked worse than it does now. 18K wasn't even *that* bad; a number of books were below that and surviving (if memory serves).

The reboot was just an excuse, as you say, and another example of DC's inability to stick to a plan or direction. Hell, within ten years we went from PG being one of the "new up and coming faces of DC" to being in limbo with no end in sight.

[Robanker]

Oh I agree with all of that. But I still think it was bad business to let Booster, Zee, and Karen's books die. They were mid-tier sellers but expecting big numbers from those titles without someone like Johns was foolish. They had all been part of big stories in the recent past, were all building steam. You said it yourself, the book was trending upwards. In 2010, when the industry looked worse than it does now. 18K wasn't even *that* bad; a number of books were below that and surviving (if memory serves).

The reboot was just an excuse, as you say, and another example of DC's inability to stick to a plan or direction. Hell, within ten years we went from PG being one of the "new up and coming faces of DC" to being in limbo with no end in sight.

Can we stop talking about how they shot her book in the foot? It's depressing. No PG, Zee or Booster replacement in the New 52 lineup was part of what made me dip for several years following the reboot.

[Agent Z]

It still annoys me that Peege suddenly started being called Karen rather than Kara by her super peers.

Why? They needed someway to differentiate the two.

[Robanker]

Why? They needed somecway to differentiate the two.

This... And I actually like the name "Karen" despite what it's become synonymous for of late.

[achilles]

Oh I agree with all of that. But I still think it was bad business to let Booster, Zee, and Karen's books die. They were mid-tier sellers but expecting big numbers from those titles without someone like Johns was foolish. They had all been part of big stories in the recent past, were all building steam. You said it yourself, the book was trending upwards. In 2010, when the industry looked worse than it does now. 18K wasn't even *that* bad; a number of books were below that and surviving (if memory serves).

The reboot was just an excuse, as you say, and another example of DC's inability to stick to a plan or direction. Hell, within ten years we went from PG being one of the "new up and coming faces of DC" to being in limbo with no end in sight.

And you mentioned two of my other favorites. If I were running things, PG, Blue and Gold, Zee, Vixen or Animal Man, REBELS/LEGION, Captain Atom, Captain Comet, and some others from the JSA would all get solo titles. And I never would have cancelled PG's solo. Yeah, you're right, and I was concerned at the time that Jimmy, Justin, and Amanda were not big enough names to attract a large number of readers to the title. IIRC, they started around 45,000 and plummeted from there. Johns' mini with the retcon back scored around 95,000 for the first issue, about 50,000 more. And he didn't even have much of a plan or a story. Imagine if a big name with a great story to tell had done that one.

Hopefully, if they do revive JSA as a title, whoever has it is a big enough name to draw people. Though I'm no longer sure if that applies; that is do big names still draw readers?

[achilles]

Why? They needed someway to differentiate the two.

Well, since Karen Starr was arguably more well known in universe as a business tycoon than Clark Kent...it's rather like yelling out "Clark!" to Superman in public. For another, it's yet another example of Power Girl getting the worst of it regarding SG. Why not call her Linda, or whatever human name she's going by these days in the comics? Why does PG always have to make the accommodation?

I wouldn't mind her superhero friends calling her Karen in private, but not in public. There, they should call her PG, Power Girl, or Kara. That's if they care about her secret identity. Also...frankly...when you think about it, it's a bit like forcing an immigrant from say some country in Asia to adopt an American name, and only calling them that. It has a bit of an uncomfortable feeling; and isn't something I'd personally do.

In animation or live action, the solution is simple. One is Care-Uh, and the other is Kar-Ah. In the comics, just use context.

[Agent Z]

Well, since Karen Starr was arguably more well known in universe as a business tycoon than Clark Kent...it's rather like yelling out "Clark!" to Superman in public.

That is a fair criticism but Stanlos's issue was them calling her Karen instead of Kara.

For another, it's yet another example of Power Girl getting the worst of it regarding SG. Why not call her Linda, or whatever human name she's going by these days in the comics? Why does PG always have to make the accommodation?

I don't see how the name is another example of Karen getting the short end of the stick compared to Kara. There are definitely instances of it happening but this wasn't one of them. And the name Linda had been used by the Peter David Supergirl and I don't think her fans would have appreciated Karen taking that name, especially after what DC did to her.

[Agent Z]

Well, since Karen Starr was arguably more well known in universe as a business tycoon than Clark Kent...it's rather like yelling out "Clark!" to Superman in public.

That is a fair criticism but Stanlos's issue was them calling her Karen instead of Kara.

For another, it's yet another example of Power Girl getting the worst of it regarding SG. Why not call her Linda, or whatever human name she's going by these days in the comics? Why does PG always have to make the accommodation?

I don't see how the name is another example of Karen getting the short end of the stick compared to Kara. There are definitely instances of it happening but this wasn't one of them. And the name Linda had been used by the Peter David Supergirl and I don't think her fans would have appreciated Karen taking that name, especially after what DC did to her.

[Restingvoice]

Question, why don't they just use a circle of P instead of the boob window? or a House of El shield but with P? Seems pretty obvious to me

coz my impression is her cleavage is her symbol.

No, the New 52 costume doesn't count. That suit is ugly.

[achilles]

That is a fair criticism but Stanlos's issue was them calling her Karen instead of Kara.




I don't see how the name is another example of Karen getting the short end of the stick compared to Kara. There are definitely instances of it happening but this wasn't one of them. And the name Linda had been used by the Peter David Supergirl and I don't think her fans would have appreciated Karen taking that name, especially after what DC did to her.

I meant why not call Supergirl Linda, not Power Girl. Calling Supergirl Linda instead of Kara could have happened, but didn't.

[achilles]

Question, why don't they just use a circle of P instead of the boob window? or a House of El shield but with P? Seems pretty obvious to me

coz my impression is her cleavage is her symbol.

No, the New 52 costume doesn't count. That suit is ugly.

I believe that Kevin Maguire mentioned something to the effect that it was also the best he was allowed to do with the requirement that he had some sort of P logo. The problem is that it's asymmetric. So is the S of course, but it has more symmetry than a P. Also...it brands the character, letting even non fans know generically what she is. And puts her in with much more popular characters, which might benefit her somewhat. Or at least that's how I imagine DC's thinking is.

[Ascended]

Question, why don't they just use a circle of P instead of the boob window? or a House of El shield but with P? Seems pretty obvious to me

coz my impression is her cleavage is her symbol.

No, the New 52 costume doesn't count. That suit is ugly.

If memory serves, when they'd do one of those inner monologue caption boxes with the logo on the side, they used the "P" and "G" from her solo title to denote who was speaking/thinking. That was good enough to serve the purpose of monologue boxes, but is far removed from being a legit emblem.

Having a marketable logo is crazy important for IP's like this, you need something you can slap on a t-shirt or lunch box. But I think Karen doesn't have one for a few reasons; they have yet to stumble upon a good eye-catching logo, Karen's costume and visual are fairly well known within comic circles already so changing that tends to create backlash (especially when the replacement design isn't as good), and it's more effort than DC wants to bother putting in.

We can see how it plays out in the New52; they gave her a emblem but the costume update didn't resonate as "Power Girl" and the logo itself was redundant and poorly balanced from an artistic perspective.

[achilles]

If memory serves, when they'd do one of those inner monologue caption boxes with the logo on the side, they used the "P" and "G" from her solo title to denote who was speaking/thinking. That was good enough to serve the purpose of monologue boxes, but is far removed from being a legit emblem.

Having a marketable logo is crazy important for IP's like this, you need something you can slap on a t-shirt or lunch box. But I think Karen doesn't have one for a few reasons; they have yet to stumble upon a good eye-catching logo, Karen's costume and visual are fairly well known within comic circles already so changing that tends to create backlash (especially when the replacement design isn't as good), and it's more effort than DC wants to bother putting in.

We can see how it plays out in the New52; they gave her a emblem but the costume update didn't resonate as "Power Girl" and the logo itself was redundant and poorly balanced from an artistic perspective.

Me, I'd make a change. If they have to have an S, make it blue...her color. Which isn't as dark IIRC as SM or SG. Personally, for symmetry's sake, I'd add legs to the costume in that case.

AFAIK, they first put an S logo, (in silver, on a black uniform that worked well against blonde hair, and similar to Superman's black regeneration suit), on her in Generation Lost, prior to Flashpoint. Then after the failure of the P logo, they went to the standard colored S.