Karen Starr: Power Girl Appreciation 2020

[Robanker]

Well, since Karen Starr was arguably more well known in universe as a business tycoon than Clark Kent...it's rather like yelling out "Clark!" to Superman in public. For another, it's yet another example of Power Girl getting the worst of it regarding SG. Why not call her Linda, or whatever human name she's going by these days in the comics? Why does PG always have to make the accommodation?

I wouldn't mind her superhero friends calling her Karen in private, but not in public. There, they should call her PG, Power Girl, or Kara. That's if they care about her secret identity. Also...frankly...when you think about it, it's a bit like forcing an immigrant from say some country in Asia to adopt an American name, and only calling them that. It has a bit of an uncomfortable feeling; and isn't something I'd personally do.

In animation or live action, the solution is simple. One is Care-Uh, and the other is Kar-Ah. In the comics, just use context.

I have family from the old country with two names and none of them are bothered when someone uses their adopted name because it's easier or just what they know. They picked names they liked for that reason. Yes, I asked them.

She should be called "Kara" or "Pee Gee" in the field if not "Power Girl," same as Clark does when he's operating as Superman. I agree. It's bad writing when they just call her Karen. That said, PG only sometimes cares about her secret identity. There are large swaths of time where she's more like Diana and sometimes Dinah-- PG all the time. When they're calling her Karen as PG, I assume it's one of those times where reality has been reset and "Karen Starr" isn't really a secret anymore. Is that a cop-out? Sure, but DC hasn't paid a lot of attention to Karen's private life.

Question, why don't they just use a circle of P instead of the boob window? or a House of El shield but with P? Seems pretty obvious to me

coz my impression is her cleavage is her symbol.

No, the New 52 costume doesn't count. That suit is ugly.

In her own words:

PG.jpg

The whole point of being PG is to distance herself from anyone's legacy and build something entirely her own, something even Dick Grayson didn't do when he chose to honor his surrogate uncle Clark in adopting the Nightwing moniker when he took his own path.

[Robanker]

If memory serves, when they'd do one of those inner monologue caption boxes with the logo on the side, they used the "P" and "G" from her solo title to denote who was speaking/thinking. That was good enough to serve the purpose of monologue boxes, but is far removed from being a legit emblem.

Having a marketable logo is crazy important for IP's like this, you need something you can slap on a t-shirt or lunch box. But I think Karen doesn't have one for a few reasons; they have yet to stumble upon a good eye-catching logo, Karen's costume and visual are fairly well known within comic circles already so changing that tends to create backlash (especially when the replacement design isn't as good), and it's more effort than DC wants to bother putting in.

We can see how it plays out in the New52; they gave her a emblem but the costume update didn't resonate as "Power Girl" and the logo itself was redundant and poorly balanced from an artistic perspective.

(I'd edit my last post but the forums are being weird and it's not showing up despite being in my post history)

To my knowledge, her narrative caption boxes are white with the round gold clasp and the upper right has a red cape segment or, yes, a muted red with the PG over it. They alternate between them. She doesn't really have a logo, per se, but giving her the S kind of just loses her in the shuffle. Of all the many people wearing the crest of El, Steel is the only one who has a really unique spin on it (being, well, steel with rivets).

Amanda Conner went out of her way to put the symbol for power (like on a PC) her belt buckle and something to that effect may be where they should move for giving her a symbol. Obviously modify it, but if she must have one... the belt seems a good place for it to be. Like Aquaman.

[Stanlos]

Why? They needed someway to differentiate the two.

Sooooooooooooo why not use the more widely known Linda name that Supergirl had before her death? You are right in that they are both Kara as they are different earth variations of the same character. It would have been far less forced and jarring if they simply leaned into that rather than have everyone we had seen calling Peege "Kara" for like ever (even during sleepovers and Oan energy enclosed intimate moments) just stop p and abruptly start referring to her as Karen (Starr, presumably) though we rarely ever saw them interact with her secret identity.

[Stanlos]

Question, why don't they just use a circle of P instead of the boob window? or a House of El shield but with P? Seems pretty obvious to me

coz my impression is her cleavage is her symbol.

No, the New 52 costume doesn't count. That suit is ugly.

OMG is it horrid. I would rather see the return of the weird JLE mostly blue and white suit than that thing.

[Ascended]

Amanda Conner went out of her way to put the symbol for power (like on a PC) her belt buckle and something to that effect may be where they should move for giving her a symbol. Obviously modify it, but if she must have one... the belt seems a good place for it to be. Like Aquaman.

That or the clasp on her cape. Or both!

[achilles]

(I'd edit my last post but the forums are being weird and it's not showing up despite being in my post history)

To my knowledge, her narrative caption boxes are white with the round gold clasp and the upper right has a red cape segment or, yes, a muted red with the PG over it. They alternate between them. She doesn't really have a logo, per se, but giving her the S kind of just loses her in the shuffle. Of all the many people wearing the crest of El, Steel is the only one who has a really unique spin on it (being, well, steel with rivets).

Amanda Conner went out of her way to put the symbol for power (like on a PC) her belt buckle and something to that effect may be where they should move for giving her a symbol. Obviously modify it, but if she must have one... the belt seems a good place for it to be. Like Aquaman.

There's a couple of fatal problems with the power symbol. First, it isn't DC's. Not sure if DC will like that going forward. The other is it doesn't scream a character related to Superman. Meaning DC would have problems branding her. Sounds more like a lazy art choice by Connor, though I suppose it worked while she was doing it.

[Stanlos]

If memory serves, when they'd do one of those inner monologue caption boxes with the logo on the side, they used the "P" and "G" from her solo title to denote who was speaking/thinking. That was good enough to serve the purpose of monologue boxes, but is far removed from being a legit emblem.

Having a marketable logo is crazy important for IP's like this, you need something you can slap on a t-shirt or lunch box. But I think Karen doesn't have one for a few reasons; they have yet to stumble upon a good eye-catching logo, Karen's costume and visual are fairly well known within comic circles already so changing that tends to create backlash (especially when the replacement design isn't as good), and it's more effort than DC wants to bother putting in.

We can see how it plays out in the New52; they gave her a emblem but the costume update didn't resonate as "Power Girl" and the logo itself was redundant and poorly balanced from an artistic perspective.

Oooooooooooooooooooo h that is right and no longer the starry thing in the circle because that was an Atlantean sigil of some sort. I forgot about that and had been wondering why they didn't just use that since Arion is not active in the present day DCU and to my knowledge no one h as used it. I wonder if there is a Kryptonian letter for "P" and "G" that might be similar to her discarded sigil thing. But I would prefer it on her belt as her characterization has been of a woman both proud of her body and aware of challenges of body image perception for ladies. That is why I like her iconic muscled, busty look captured so well by artists like Alex Ross and Adam Hughes.

[Ascended]

Totally agreed; Karen should be buff as hell. Connor draws Karen with some muscle mass, and so did...Engelhart? Whoever did the second Johns JSA, I think. And there's others, but it definitely isn't every artist when it totally should be.

The thing that gets me about Karen and her figure is everyone talks about wanting body diversity in their comics, they want their experiences reflected in the fiction....but that apparently only counts if you're fat. My wife is a busty woman (not fat, just blessed), and every day I watch her struggle with seat belts, finding clothes that fit right, knocking things off shelves, all kinds of crap. And honestly? It's hilarious to watch her try to get through her day with those things always getting in her way. But it's a legit struggle for her and she is constantly frustrated by all these little things; even other women have a hard time looking her in the eye and there isn't a store anywhere nearby that carries clothes that actually fit her right. And yes, all females in comics look like porn stars and that crap needs to stop, but Karen is just about the only one I've seen where these issues are actually addressed on any level beyond stupid high school jokes about "boobies!" and the character actually comments on what real life is like for busty girls.

And nobody *ever* talks about the fact that Power Girl has often been drawn like a body builder. You want body diversity? There's some; you don't often see women with muscles like Karen has.

But no. What we get is boob jokes (from fans *and* creators) and the "I want body diversity, but by that I only mean fat people!" complaints. And obviously overweight characters should be a thing and I totally support the effort, but it pisses me off that the people saying they want representation for *all* body types *really* only mean one kind.

[Stanlos]

I have family from the old country with two names and none of them are bothered when someone uses their adopted name because it's easier or just what they know. They picked names they liked for that reason. Yes, I asked them.

She should be called "Kara" or "Pee Gee" in the field if not "Power Girl," same as Clark does when he's operating as Superman. I agree. It's bad writing when they just call her Karen. That said, PG only sometimes cares about her secret identity. There are large swaths of time where she's more like Diana and sometimes Dinah-- PG all the time. When they're calling her Karen as PG, I assume it's one of those times where reality has been reset and "Karen Starr" isn't really a secret anymore. Is that a cop-out? Sure, but DC hasn't paid a lot of attention to Karen's private life.



In her own words:

PG.jpg

The whole point of being PG is to distance herself from anyone's legacy and build something entirely her own, something even Dick Grayson didn't do when he chose to honor his surrogate uncle Clark in adopting the Nightwing moniker when he took his own path.

That is the other part of the shift they did with her that annoyed me. She was -- well maybe I should say she seemed to me to be--so spunky and independent which enabled me to accept the massive change from deleting the other worlds. The change seemed like an organic evolution echoing a trait already present in the character's DNA. I guess when Johns was retooling he took the pendulum much too far and gave her this weird opposite personality that the character never ever had.

I think it was a mistake to do things this way with Peege and Supergirl. It would have been better to lean into the situation fully as PAD intended with the whole SUPERGIRLS idea. At least this time the earth Angel character no longer exists freeing up her old trappings (secret ID and home and so forth) so rather three you would have just the two Karas.

[Robanker]

There's a couple of fatal problems with the power symbol. First, it isn't DC's. Not sure if DC will like that going forward. The other is it doesn't scream a character related to Superman. Meaning DC would have problems branding her. Sounds more like a lazy art choice by Connor, though I suppose it worked while she was doing it.

I think it's a good place to start and modify it to look a bit more Superman-esque if necessary, but I don't want it to just be the P in a diamond or something.

Totally agreed; Karen should be buff as hell. Connor draws Karen with some muscle mass, and so did...Engelhart? Whoever did the second Johns JSA, I think. And there's others, but it definitely isn't every artist when it totally should be.

The thing that gets me about Karen and her figure is everyone talks about wanting body diversity in their comics, they want their experiences reflected in the fiction....but that apparently only counts if you're fat. My wife is a busty woman (not fat, just blessed), and every day I watch her struggle with seat belts, finding clothes that fit right, knocking things off shelves, all kinds of crap. And honestly? It's hilarious to watch her try to get through her day with those things always getting in her way. But it's a legit struggle for her and she is constantly frustrated by all these little things; even other women have a hard time looking her in the eye and there isn't a store anywhere nearby that carries clothes that actually fit her right. And yes, all females in comics look like porn stars and that crap needs to stop, but Karen is just about the only one I've seen where these issues are actually addressed on any level beyond stupid high school jokes about "boobies!" and the character actually comments on what real life is like for busty girls.

And nobody *ever* talks about the fact that Power Girl has often been drawn like a body builder. You want body diversity? There's some; you don't often see women with muscles like Karen has.

But no. What we get is boob jokes (from fans *and* creators) and the "I want body diversity, but by that I only mean fat people!" complaints. And obviously overweight characters should be a thing and I totally support the effort, but it pisses me off that the people saying they want representation for *all* body types *really* only mean one kind.

You're thinking of Dale Eaglesham, as for body diversity... it's a growing pain. PG should be included, but aside from muscularity, she's got the kind of body that made people complain about figures in comics to begin with, so while bodies like hers should be accepted, she's also used as the poster for "this is what we're talking about." It sucks, but it is what it is. She-Hulk is more muscular than even Karen but until recently where she just became The Hulk, nobody who was complaining cared. But I agree. Rhianna used a fat guy as her model for a XXL pair of boxers and a lot of dudes were really happy to see their bodies finally included in cries for body diversity. It's getting better, but Karen's going to just have to soldier on until we get to a place where people start accepting all bodies and not just the ones they sympathize with.

Unfortunately, porn and cosplayers looking to get a lot of eyes on them real fast are always going to use PG in their work so it's just going to be something to live with.

That is the other part of the shift they did with her that annoyed me. She was -- well maybe I should say she seemed to me to be--so spunky and independent which enabled me to accept the massive change from deleting the other worlds. The change seemed like an organic evolution echoing a trait already present in the character's DNA. I guess when Johns was retooling he took the pendulum much too far and gave her this weird opposite personality that the character never ever had.

I think it was a mistake to do things this way with Peege and Supergirl. It would have been better to lean into the situation fully as PAD intended with the whole SUPERGIRLS idea. At least this time the earth Angel character no longer exists freeing up her old trappings (secret ID and home and so forth) so rather three you would have just the two Karas.

Yeah, Johns did a lot to elevate PG and I suspect he would have given her more of her voice back after the whole Earth-2 storyline finished with her, but he left the book. Jimmy/Amanda and even Judd Winick did more to restore her personality than Johns did, but I give Johns a lot of credit because he positioned her to be the rising star she was.

I don't like any idea that makes PG more like Supergirl, or has her adopt the name. She wants to be her own person. To have her say "well I made it. Now to throw it all away and become the other Supergirl and an El" is essentially throwing away PG as a character to turn her into a cannon fodder character for an event. She's Guy Gardner or Kyle Raynor at that point. One of the other Lanterns that people like but don't matter (and Guy's my favorite Oan Lantern). PG lets Karen do her own thing and OWN it. Supergirl(s) just makes her an also-ran sidekick and, frankly, easier to replace like Tim Drake is. Need to adopt some characteristics to make Kara more interesting? Merge her with the other Supergirl, Karen! It happens all the time with the Robins (they get amalgamated in adaptions, usually with Dick's name/origin for good measure). When you go more towards Supergirl, you get Galatea. She's the evil clone. Or you get DCSHG, where they admit PG is more interesting but use Kara's branding. Both times, Kara looks good at Karen's expense. No thanks, man. Keep Power Girl Power Girl.

Every time someone wants to make her another Supergirl, I'm convinced they don't actually like Power Girl at all. It literally erases her entire character history except that she's Earth-2 Kara Zor-L and homogenizes her into the Supergirl it's safe to experiment with/turn evil/kill/etc because she's not the "real" one. Pass. One thousand times pass. They were able to successfully erase her in New 52 because she went to an Earth that didn't matter and turned into Superwoman where she became someone else's love interest prop. No thanks.

[Agent Z]

Totally agreed; Karen should be buff as hell. Connor draws Karen with some muscle mass, and so did...Engelhart? Whoever did the second Johns JSA, I think. And there's others, but it definitely isn't every artist when it totally should be.

The thing that gets me about Karen and her figure is everyone talks about wanting body diversity in their comics, they want their experiences reflected in the fiction....but that apparently only counts if you're fat. My wife is a busty woman (not fat, just blessed), and every day I watch her struggle with seat belts, finding clothes that fit right, knocking things off shelves, all kinds of crap. And honestly? It's hilarious to watch her try to get through her day with those things always getting in her way. But it's a legit struggle for her and she is constantly frustrated by all these little things; even other women have a hard time looking her in the eye and there isn't a store anywhere nearby that carries clothes that actually fit her right. And yes, all females in comics look like porn stars and that crap needs to stop, but Karen is just about the only one I've seen where these issues are actually addressed on any level beyond stupid high school jokes about "boobies!" and the character actually comments on what real life is like for busty girls.

And nobody *ever* talks about the fact that Power Girl has often been drawn like a body builder. You want body diversity? There's some; you don't often see women with muscles like Karen has.

But no. What we get is boob jokes (from fans *and* creators) and the "I want body diversity, but by that I only mean fat people!" complaints. And obviously overweight characters should be a thing and I totally support the effort, but it pisses me off that the people saying they want representation for *all* body types *really* only mean one kind.

I'm sure there is a story to be told about how Karen feels about her body type. I don't know if it has been told with her yet but it does sound like an interesting idea.

[Stanlos]

I'm sure there is a story to be told about how Karen feels about her body type. I don't know if it has been told with her yet but it does sound like an interesting idea.

We got to see Peege talk about that in JL Quarterly story featuring lady Leaguers

[achilles]

We got to see Peege talk about JL Quarterly story featuring lady Leaguers

The one with the comic sleepover? I remember that. However, while she does talk about it, and the art, (Sears was it?), did have her as muscular, (and quite tall), she wasn't anything like a bodybuilder). In fact, that is a minority depiction, started IIRC by Ross in Kingdom Come. However...why in story would she look like that? Humans, and I would suspect anything else, have to work hard to look like that. Why or how exactly would a Kryptonian do that---(it's not like people who can bench planets can just go to the gym)? And if she does look like that, wouldn't she be significantly stronger than Supergirl at least? And maybe even than Superman?

A more common look for her has her as a tall, muscular in the fitness model sense woman. Busty, obviously, but even that varies.

[phonogram12]

Totally agreed; Karen should be buff as hell. Connor draws Karen with some muscle mass, and so did...Engelhart? Whoever did the second Johns JSA, I think. And there's others, but it definitely isn't every artist when it totally should be.

The thing that gets me about Karen and her figure is everyone talks about wanting body diversity in their comics, they want their experiences reflected in the fiction....but that apparently only counts if you're fat. My wife is a busty woman (not fat, just blessed), and every day I watch her struggle with seat belts, finding clothes that fit right, knocking things off shelves, all kinds of crap. And honestly? It's hilarious to watch her try to get through her day with those things always getting in her way. But it's a legit struggle for her and she is constantly frustrated by all these little things; even other women have a hard time looking her in the eye and there isn't a store anywhere nearby that carries clothes that actually fit her right. And yes, all females in comics look like porn stars and that crap needs to stop, but Karen is just about the only one I've seen where these issues are actually addressed on any level beyond stupid high school jokes about "boobies!" and the character actually comments on what real life is like for busty girls.

And nobody *ever* talks about the fact that Power Girl has often been drawn like a body builder. You want body diversity? There's some; you don't often see women with muscles like Karen has.

But no. What we get is boob jokes (from fans *and* creators) and the "I want body diversity, but by that I only mean fat people!" complaints. And obviously overweight characters should be a thing and I totally support the effort, but it pisses me off that the people saying they want representation for *all* body types *really* only mean one kind.

Well, she did address a lot of her issues with her body during the Palmiotti, Gray, and Conner run. Although, admittedly, a lot of it was how she believed to be perceived by men (which she was usually right about, btw).

[Agent Z]

Well, she did address a lot of her issues with her body during the Palmiotti, Gray, and Conner run. Although, admittedly, a lot of it was how she believed to be perceived by men (which she was usually right about, btw).

Maybe I missed it but when did that run address any body issues?