Page 5 of 26 FirstFirst 12345678915 ... LastLast
Results 61 to 75 of 384
  1. #61
    Incredible Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2019
    Posts
    525

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Badou View Post
    I don't think DC would ever pair the two because of how DC treats the Nightwing character, but I think expecting it to replace Dick's relationship with Barbara or Starfire is the wrong way to look at it. Obviously that would never happen, but it is more about trying to build Power Girl's character back up and giving her deeper ties to established DC characters. The only way Power Girl has been appearing at all in DC books the last few years is because of her friendship with Harley Quinn. So those ties and connections are important.

    Talking about her rogues or supporting cast feels a bit much when she can't even appear consistently in an ongoing DC series. So a romance with a Nightwing could be a way to increase her influence, and also lot of fun if done properly. As both characters have similar upbeat and outgoing personalities, are two of the most attractive heroes in the DCU, and fall into similar roles within their hero families with growing up and creating a new hero identity for themselves. So they have a lot of similar experiences writers could use. A romance with Val again isn't going to do anything for the character with where she is currently. You build her up more and then use characters like Val.

    Dick hasn't dated Starfire in 25 years and hasn't dated Barbara in like 13 years, but with them all having so much baggage you can't really have them start a new romance from the ground up with each other. So Power Girl would be something fresh. It would eventually end but it could transition into a good friendship between the two, and gives Power Girl a direct connection to a Batman family character with Helena Wayne not being around consistently. Dick is the only main Batman family member without his own Superman family connection. So it fits. Maybe the dynamic could change to a Batman and Zatanna kind of dynamic where it is a close friendship with underlines of romantic tension that people enjoy, but no one expects it to replace his relationship with Catwoman.
    While in principle, I wouldn't mind seeing a Power Wing run in the comics...it's never going to happen. Nor is shipping PG with anyone really the way to increase her popularity. Here on CBR she was the number 63 most popular DC hero this year. Back during her solo comic book run and JSA run, she was number 22 or 23, actually above characters like Supergirl. Clearly PG's biggest problem is that DC and WB are simply not using her. Instead, Supergirl gets most of the roles PG might have played in the comics or other media, with completely new heroes, or other heroes retooled, getting the rest.

    Simply give her a solo and put her back in JSA, and you'll see her rankings go way up. Do a GREAT solo title that actually matters for the rest of the DCU, and give her some animation time and a live action slot, and you'll see her get even more popular. But I don't see that last happening ever, as WB seems unaware she even exists.

    Since classic bad guys and supporting cast are an essential element of comic book superhero stories, I think that they would help her popularity far more than shipping her with a more famous character. Most of DC's major superheroes after all go for long periods without their sundry romances being a major part of their own stories, but very few of them go for long without serious bad guys and serious stories. Plus...Power Girl really hasn't done anything ever that is terribly notable. Supergirl after all at least died a heroic death in COIE that's still in the memory of her fans. And other heroes have too many great stories to count. PG has none, and has never done anything notable in comparison. She needs that to all change. Which means no more Harley Quinn associations, and no more silly runs. No more Palmiotti and Gray writing her stuff.

  2. #62
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    14,651

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by achilles View Post
    She needs that to all change. Which means no more Harley Quinn associations, and no more silly runs. No more Palmiotti and Gray writing her stuff.
    I'm not sure if that's necessarily the right direction. Make Karen serious.....like 90% of DC's other books? That's not going to help her stand out or stand on her own, it'll just make her book redundant. No, I think the best option for PG is to provide something different. And that could be any number of "serious" things (multiverse travel, corporate heroics, etc) but providing a different subgenre (comedy, horror, retro pulp, whatever) shouldn't be taken off the table just because Karen needs feats. In her last solo she held up Manhattan island. That's a damn impressive feat (don't pretend its not) and it happened in a book that didn't take itself too seriously.

    And yeah, a love interest isn't terribly high on the priority list. I can think of three other things just off the top of my head that would have to be considered before the supporting cast. But Powerwing would offer some really nice benefits that Karen could take advantage of.

    First off, Karen's unlikely to get another solo. It *could* happen (I hope it does!), but the odds aren't great. She's more likely to be on a team like the JSA, where character development and subplots have to be spread around the whole roster. Which means there's not much room for Karen to shine; she'll get her 15 minutes eventually and then the other team members will get their's and in a few years Karen will get her turn again. As a major supporting character in Nightwing however, she'll have more panel time, and we all know that a love interest's subplots/panel time don't always have to be about the relationship. Good love interests get developed as well rounded characters with their own lives. So this means more panel time for Karen, more development as a character, and a second book for her to appear in on a regular basis. It's win-win-win.

    It also gives her strong ties to a major character that'll actually use her (unlike Superman), use her consistently (unlike Harley) and makes it less likely that she'll end up in limbo. Hell, the only reason she's shown up anywhere in recent years is because of Harls. Obviously, looking at Nightwing right now a Powerwing relationship is no guarantee of anything, but it still improves Karen's chances of maintaining consistent appearances without getting swept under the rug. Nightwing will return to normal sooner or later, but Karen doesn't have such assurances. Even when the JSA return, we can't be certain she'll be among them.

    This also increases her odds of larger media appearances. Larger media loves Nightwing even if the comics don't. Karen being an established love interest for Dick opens up more avenues for her. Early on, it's unlikely an adaption would use her over Babs or Kori, but give it some time (and probably less than you'd think) and Karen would be seen as a viable option as well. Once again, it's better chances than what she has now.

    And no, of course Powerwing isn't gonna happen, this is just dumb fan stuff. But Babs and Kori won't happen either. Babs is a solo IP and as long as she has her own book and writer, there's logistic problems with DickBabs (as we saw with Superman-Wonder Woman). Plus, DC values Babs over Dick and doesn't want to saddle her with what they consider dead weight. Babs is damn unlikely to happen. And DC has tried to minimize and downplay the importance of the NTT for Dick, which means DickKori isn't happening either. They've been very clear about that. But you know what DC loves? World's Finest pairings. Clark-Bruce. Jon-Damian. Conner-Tim. Kara-Babs once upon a time. DC might try to keep the Titans out of Nightwing, but they're quite happy to push a World's Finest combo. And Karen's a well established character, not some original creation made just for the love interest role like Shawn or Clancy. Fans dont get invested in those because we know those original characters will be forgotten by the next writer. Karen is a known IP with her own fanbase, and is less likely to get pushed aside the way a Shawn or Clancy is.

    Would fans push against Powerwing? Sure. They push against everything new. Doesn't mean it wouldn't succeed (look at Grayson, we hated the idea but consider it essential reading now). And given the Babs-Kori fandom divide, offering a "neutral third option" who's more than just a throw-away original creation consolation prize isn't the worst option.

    And of course, even if, somehow, this did happen that doesn't mean it would be done well. Nothing is foolproof. But that doesn't mean it *shouldn't* be done either. Karen's got nothing to lose after all, so it's not like we'd be running a risk with any of this, and if it was handled with even a half-assed amount of care and effort we'd potentially gain quite a bit.
    Higher, Faster, Further....More.

    Truth, Justice, and a Better Tomorrow!

    Bridge Four!

  3. #63
    Astonishing Member Robanker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    San Jose, CA
    Posts
    2,105

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I'm not sure if that's necessarily the right direction. Make Karen serious.....like 90% of DC's other books? That's not going to help her stand out or stand on her own, it'll just make her book redundant. No, I think the best option for PG is to provide something different. And that could be any number of "serious" things (multiverse travel, corporate heroics, etc) but providing a different subgenre (comedy, horror, retro pulp, whatever) shouldn't be taken off the table just because Karen needs feats. In her last solo she held up Manhattan island. That's a damn impressive feat (don't pretend its not) and it happened in a book that didn't take itself too seriously.

    And yeah, a love interest isn't terribly high on the priority list. I can think of three other things just off the top of my head that would have to be considered before the supporting cast. But Powerwing would offer some really nice benefits that Karen could take advantage of.

    First off, Karen's unlikely to get another solo. It *could* happen (I hope it does!), but the odds aren't great. She's more likely to be on a team like the JSA, where character development and subplots have to be spread around the whole roster. Which means there's not much room for Karen to shine; she'll get her 15 minutes eventually and then the other team members will get their's and in a few years Karen will get her turn again. As a major supporting character in Nightwing however, she'll have more panel time, and we all know that a love interest's subplots/panel time don't always have to be about the relationship. Good love interests get developed as well rounded characters with their own lives. So this means more panel time for Karen, more development as a character, and a second book for her to appear in on a regular basis. It's win-win-win.

    It also gives her strong ties to a major character that'll actually use her (unlike Superman), use her consistently (unlike Harley) and makes it less likely that she'll end up in limbo. Hell, the only reason she's shown up anywhere in recent years is because of Harls. Obviously, looking at Nightwing right now a Powerwing relationship is no guarantee of anything, but it still improves Karen's chances of maintaining consistent appearances without getting swept under the rug. Nightwing will return to normal sooner or later, but Karen doesn't have such assurances. Even when the JSA return, we can't be certain she'll be among them.

    This also increases her odds of larger media appearances. Larger media loves Nightwing even if the comics don't. Karen being an established love interest for Dick opens up more avenues for her. Early on, it's unlikely an adaption would use her over Babs or Kori, but give it some time (and probably less than you'd think) and Karen would be seen as a viable option as well. Once again, it's better chances than what she has now.

    And no, of course Powerwing isn't gonna happen, this is just dumb fan stuff. But Babs and Kori won't happen either. Babs is a solo IP and as long as she has her own book and writer, there's logistic problems with DickBabs (as we saw with Superman-Wonder Woman). Plus, DC values Babs over Dick and doesn't want to saddle her with what they consider dead weight. Babs is damn unlikely to happen. And DC has tried to minimize and downplay the importance of the NTT for Dick, which means DickKori isn't happening either. They've been very clear about that. But you know what DC loves? World's Finest pairings. Clark-Bruce. Jon-Damian. Conner-Tim. Kara-Babs once upon a time. DC might try to keep the Titans out of Nightwing, but they're quite happy to push a World's Finest combo. And Karen's a well established character, not some original creation made just for the love interest role like Shawn or Clancy. Fans dont get invested in those because we know those original characters will be forgotten by the next writer. Karen is a known IP with her own fanbase, and is less likely to get pushed aside the way a Shawn or Clancy is.

    Would fans push against Powerwing? Sure. They push against everything new. Doesn't mean it wouldn't succeed (look at Grayson, we hated the idea but consider it essential reading now). And given the Babs-Kori fandom divide, offering a "neutral third option" who's more than just a throw-away original creation consolation prize isn't the worst option.

    And of course, even if, somehow, this did happen that doesn't mean it would be done well. Nothing is foolproof. But that doesn't mean it *shouldn't* be done either. Karen's got nothing to lose after all, so it's not like we'd be running a risk with any of this, and if it was handled with even a half-assed amount of care and effort we'd potentially gain quite a bit.
    All of this.

    I will add that PG is, like Nightwing since he's in to he discussion, able to pull off dramatic or humorous stories. She's got enough range for both. It's what I love about her. She has every reason to be serious and sullen given what she's lost, but she remains a fun, upbeat person about life for the most part and doesn't suffer jackasses.

    Jimmy and Amanda are a good fit for the fun side of the character just as Geoff did a good job building her dramatic angle and I don't think either hurts her at all. I would argue that eliminating one approach to favor the other actually makes her just a generic superhero and then she really is simply Other Supergirl. Karen's always been unapologetically herself and I see no reason to change that now.
    Last edited by Robanker; 01-13-2020 at 12:58 PM.

  4. #64
    Incredible Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2019
    Posts
    525

    Default

    Yes, PG can do both comedy and drama. But her only solo was heavy on the comedy and nearly missing any drama. The Winick run had a bit more, but was messed up. Her Harley appearances have only been comedy, from a team that managed to basically destroy the idea of her having a solo. Sorry, but there it is; if anyone writes PG, it shouldn't be them. Interest was decently high on their first issue, but they lost nearly all the readers that the series ever would within like sx issues. They have NOT helped her popularity in any way, judging from the results.

    The result being that DC needs to remind people of the drama part. Even Johns' story in her mini, as Johnsian and therefore completely wrong, was at least much higher selling than her solo under P and G, and IT was drama. Johns whiny, always crying, perpetual rescue bait for other, better in his eyes heroes version did sell, but I'm not sure that completely changing major aspect of her character to make them much worse is the way you want to go, nor is giving her to the one guy who admitted he doesn't like or understand maybe the way you want to go. But he did show that drama can work well for her.
    Last edited by achilles; 01-13-2020 at 01:20 PM.

  5. #65
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    22,645

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by achilles View Post
    Taking the last item first, AFAIK, Power Girl has killed someone....once, in a horrible story written by exactly who you'd expect to get Karen totally wrong and have her kill, and then later in the same story, whine and cry, and need rescue. Thy Kingdom Come, by Johns, where she sort of killed Earth 2 Joker, (by letting him accidently kill himself by trying to use his joke buzzer on her, which obviously didn't work out to well for him. Any other writer would have had her save him.
    Well I hope we get a better version of this story.

    As for jobbing to other heroes, Power Girl is DC's champion for doing that.
    Two wrongs don't make a right.



    Wonder Woman has had this very often as well


    It's actually very rare for a Wonder Woman villain to be a threat to other heroes. Sometimes they're not even an adequate threat to Diana herself. And I don't care much for Doomsday.

    I would use absolutely nothing from her solo tile by Palmiotti and Gray, or from Winick's run. None of the other characters or situations therein IMO are worth keeping. UH maybe could be a minor PG bad guy, but NOT this version, who IMO wouldn't scare anyone. But no one else.
    No offense, but those runs provided the most fleshed out supporting cast and rogues for Karen. I won't say they were perfect but if you remove them, Karen has nothing. We're not in a position to be choosers here.

  6. #66
    Astonishing Member Robanker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    San Jose, CA
    Posts
    2,105

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by achilles View Post
    Yes, PG can do both comedy and drama. But her only solo was heavy on the comedy and nearly missing any drama. The Winick run had a bit more, but was messed up. Her Harley appearances have only been comedy, from a team that managed to basically destroy the idea of her having a solo. Sorry, but there it is; if anyone writes PG, it shouldn't be them. Interest was decently high on their first issue, but they lost nearly all the readers that the series ever would within like sx issues. They have NOT helped her popularity in any way, judging from the results.

    The result being that DC needs to remind people of the drama part. Even Johns' story in her mini, as Johnsian and therefore completely wrong, was at least much higher selling than her solo under P and G, and IT was drama. Johns whiny, always crying, perpetual rescue bait for other, better in his eyes heroes version did sell, but I'm not sure that completely changing major aspect of her character to make them much worse is the way you want to go, nor is giving her to the one guy who admitted he doesn't like or understand maybe the way you want to go. But he did show that drama can work well for her.
    That's interesting because the Palmiotti/Gray/Conner run is the only one they repackaged and sold after the initial trade run and the run all fans speak of fondly on this board. PG is Conner's other signature character other than Harley. Nobody really talks about the Winnick stuff. They collected the 12 first issues and the JSA Classified arc that Conner drew and sold it as their one-stop primer on PG. It's the most celebrated solo material she has. Could she have more fans? Maybe, but I wouldn't attack what's proven to be the most positively received material she's had as a solo act.

    Fans loved that run for the most part. I think comedy books that aren't Deadpool or Harley just don't last long to begin with. It has less to do with PG and more with the market.

    A lot of classic readers want serious stuff that "matters," but the popularity of Squirrel Girl in trade tells us that there's absolutely a market for a fun superhero book and PG works great for that. Look at Jimmy Olsen. Sells like trash and it's a goddamn GEM. The direct market doesn't support fun books too often. I'm convinced JLI would have wrapped in a year had it launched today, and that's a shame.
    Last edited by Robanker; 01-13-2020 at 02:03 PM.

  7. #67
    Astonishing Member KangMiRae's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2019
    Location
    The sea!
    Posts
    2,033

    Default

    PowerWing is the best ship. Val was so tacked on in that universe, not just with PG, a pointless character.

    And the argument that no one can be paired with Nightwing other than Kori or Babs because they’ll always be third string is extremely lazy and founded only on publication history. What’e the point of stopping anyone else dating Nightwing? Emma Frost and Cyclops grew to insane levels of popularity and has solidified itself as one of the ideal pairings for Cyclops because they had the push, and that could happen with PG and Dick. Another example is Spider-Man having 3 ideal pairings with Gwen Stacy, Mary Jane Watson, and Felicia Hardy. Why couldn’t PG become Nightwing’s 3rd primary/iconic pairing?

    Dick could date PG if DC bothered to let her expand her place in the greater DC universe, and a relationship with Nightwing could do that.
    Last edited by KangMiRae; 01-13-2020 at 02:25 PM.
    Admiral of a fleet of shipsórelationships!
    Comicbooks are nothing to me without ships and romance!

  8. #68
    Astonishing Member Robanker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    San Jose, CA
    Posts
    2,105

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by KangMiRae View Post
    PowerWing is the best ship. Val was so tacked on in that universe, not just with PG, a pointless character.

    And the argument that no one can be paired with Nightwing other than Kori or Babs because they’ll always be third string is extremely lazy and founded only on publication history. What’e the point of stopping anyone else dating Nightwing? Emma Frost and Cyclops grew to insane levels of popularity and has solidified itself as one of the ideal pairings for Cyclops because they had the push, and that could happen with PG and Dick. Another example is Spider-Man having 3 ideal pairings with Gwen Stacy, Mary Jane Watson, and Felicia Hardy. Why couldn’t PG become Nightwing’s 3rd primary/iconic pairing?

    Dick could date PG if DC bothered to let her expand her place in the greater DC universe, and a relationship with Nightwing could do that.
    As a PowerWing convert (I initially liked the idea of her dating Pieter Cross), I will say my biggest reservation now is I lament DickBabs and DickFire shippers dragging Karen into their eternal conflict because those get outright ugly.

    Worse, she'll be the common ground they unite to dunk on.

    Otherwise, bring it. Hell, that's how you sell it to Didio. "Want to enrage all his fans AND try something new that isn't a character betrayal? PowerWing, bud. It's like pouring gas on an electrical fire."

  9. #69
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    14,651

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    Worse, she'll be the common ground they unite to dunk on.
    Or the Chosen One the fandom unites behind.

    There'd be tons of backlash at first, no matter what. But how many books got that kind of reception only for fans to realize that it was/is really good? Again, I bring you exhibit A: Grayson. A hook no one believed in that everyone came to love.

    Otherwise, bring it. Hell, that's how you sell it to Didio. "Want to enrage all his fans AND try something new that isn't a character betrayal? PowerWing, bud. It's like pouring gas on an electrical fire."
    Man, I wish I could get an hour of Didio's time. One hour, and I could convince him to give me Nightwing. And I'm only *mostly* joking about that.

    As for comedy titles and the direct market and all that.....I think the direct market shouldn't even be much of a consideration. There's other distribution avenues now, and books like Ms. Marvel, Squirrel Girl, Moon Girl, etc., that have found success there. I don't think the direct market would support Power Girl whether the book was serious and "important" or a comedy title. Seriously, I don't think quality or direction would matter, the direct market would never try the book to find out if it was good or not (looking at you, Jimmy Olsen and Lois Lane books!)

    But Scholastic, digital, trade, or those other formats? Oh yeah, Karen could build up a damn solid following in one of those places.

    As for approach and tone, I'd think that something like Ms. Marvel would work. Relatively light hearted and fun but not without pathos, consequences, or drama.
    Higher, Faster, Further....More.

    Truth, Justice, and a Better Tomorrow!

    Bridge Four!

  10. #70
    Incredible Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2019
    Posts
    525

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    That's interesting because the Palmiotti/Gray/Conner run is the only one they repackaged and sold after the initial trade run and the run all fans speak of fondly on this board. PG is Conner's other signature character other than Harley. Nobody really talks about the Winnick stuff. They collected the 12 first issues and the JSA Classified arc that Conner drew and sold it as their one-stop primer on PG. It's the most celebrated solo material she has. Could she have more fans? Maybe, but I wouldn't attack what's proven to be the most positively received material she's had as a solo act.

    Fans loved that run for the most part. I think comedy books that aren't Deadpool or Harley just don't last long to begin with. It has less to do with PG and more with the market.

    A lot of classic readers want serious stuff that "matters," but the popularity of Squirrel Girl in trade tells us that there's absolutely a market for a fun superhero book and PG works great for that. Look at Jimmy Olsen. Sells like trash and it's a goddamn GEM. The direct market doesn't support fun books too often. I'm convinced JLI would have wrapped in a year had it launched today, and that's a shame.
    Well, SALES would argue otherwise. Seriously, the Palmiotti run went from okay sales at the start, though well below the Johns mini, to barely above then cancellation levels within a few issues of that run, and while the Winick run left few people gasping at its brilliance, did manage an unusual feat, actually climbing a bit out of the deep hole the Palmiotti run left. Not much, but with a writer who did a bit better job of the dramatic presentation of PG, and more time, (it was ended by Flashpoint), who knows?

    Yes, a lot of people on this and other boards do like the Palmiotti run...but that hardly indicates anything save that one fact. It says nothing about the wider comic book buying public, while the actual sales figure do. Basically, it seems that a small, but very vocal subset of Power Girl fans on internet boards like it, while most of her fans did not. Squirrel Girl is hardly the same character as PG; she was a comedy character only from the start. PG, however has gone from drama at her start and through her pre COIE years to comedy in the JLE years under Giffen and DeMateis, (far better at the comedy bit IMO than Palmiotti and Gray), back to drama, and then back to comedy with her solo. Presenting her solely as a comedy figure, especially as she's much the same basic character as Supergirl, wouldn't seem to work, and in fact long term with the Palmiotti run didn't, as far as selling her as a character. Notice how quickly DC abandoned trying to sell HER as one of the "New Icons" during that run. Happened within about six issues, almost certainly due to the lower than expected initial sales followed by the incredibly rapid drop in sales during that run. And it isn't that PG doesn't have an audience capable of sustaining a solo, look at the Johns mini. Sure it wasn't that great, but it WAS a dramatic presentation of the character...well, somewhat. And the initial sales on that one was in the 95,000 range IIRC, a pretty good figure for a character that had never been promoted at all at that point, and one without a lot of name recognition among the wider comic book reading public of the time.

    And yes, the quality of stories MATTERS. Period, full stop. Give her the sort of stories she's had to date, (very few in number, she really has never gotten a sustained push the way characters like Cyborg or the Jaime Reyes BB have despite their own more serious issues with sales), and sure she's going to do poorly. Give her stories on a par with the great Superman, Batman, or WW stories, and you'll see a building fan base as more people discover her. It isn't rocket science, but it all starts with a commitment from DC to the character, and to do justice to her in her own stories at the least. Obviously at the time, DC saw pretty big potential in her, putting her as one of the "New Icons", probably from feedback from JSA, and of course then the sales of the Johns mini. But the utter failure of the Palmiotti run to get and keep sales made them drop it. Sales argue that fans did NOT love the Palmiotti run, quite the opposite, once it became clear what he was doing with her, they left in droves.

    The irony is that his original pitch, or at least the one he mentioned about a year before his run started in an interview on the Rama, seemed both fun and less overtly comedic, though of course we don't know how it would have proceeded had he actually delivered on it, (it has been memory holed and I can't even find it on the wayback machine, but as I recall overall it had a fun Silver Age vibe in the sense that all sorts of weird stuff was happening). Sort of X-Files for superheroes.

    And while the Winick run doesn't get mentioned as often on boards as the Palmiotti run, it too is collected in trade. The problem with the Winick run wasn't that he went in a more dramatic way, it was that it was bad. Winick was trying to run a crossover book at the time, and he geared his PG into it, with the result that it was a mess, with much of her story told outside of her own solo. And of course he didn't do a good job. And he gave PG an irritating inner voice unique to his writing of the character; no other writer has given her a voice like that.

    Don't get me wrong, I don't want a sturm and drang PG all the time; in fact I don't think it's a good fit for the character; I'd rather leave that for some other character. But I also don't want a PG who is only a one-note joke as Palmiotti and Gray seem to regard her.

    IMO, a Power Girl solo should have a balance, leaning toward a mostly light but not comedic take on the character...with plenty of epic balanced with some smaller stories. She should be a Silver Age style heroine, (yes, I'm aware she's actually a Bronze Age character), with those sorts of adventures.

    Putting it another way, imagine if it had been possible for Darwyn Cooke to write and draw her in her own solo title.
    Last edited by achilles; 01-13-2020 at 04:09 PM.

  11. #71
    Incredible Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2019
    Posts
    525

    Default

    A crying shame we never got to see him do that.

    5183085055_d747895e60_z.jpg

    Gives off a 50s vibe with PG as Marilyn Monroe in Vegas. I totally would have bought that book.
    Last edited by achilles; 01-13-2020 at 04:13 PM.

  12. #72
    Astonishing Member Robanker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    San Jose, CA
    Posts
    2,105

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by achilles View Post
    Well, SALES would argue otherwise. Seriously, the Palmiotti run went from okay sales at the start, though well below the Johns mini, to barely above then cancellation levels within a few issues of that run, and while the Winick run left few people gasping at its brilliance, did manage an unusual feat, actually climbing a bit out of the deep hole the Palmiotti run left. Not much, but with a writer who did a bit better job of the dramatic presentation of PG, and more time, (it was ended by Flashpoint), who knows?

    Yes, a lot of people on this and other boards do like the Palmiotti run...but that hardly indicates anything save that one fact. It says nothing about the wider comic book buying public, while the actual sales figure do. Basically, it seems that a small, but very vocal subset of Power Girl fans on internet boards like it, while most of her fans did not. Squirrel Girl is hardly the same character as PG; she was a comedy character only from the start. PG, however has gone from drama at her start and through her pre COIE years to comedy in the JLE years under Giffen and DeMateis, (far better at the comedy bit IMO than Palmiotti and Gray), back to drama, and then back to comedy with her solo. Presenting her solely as a comedy figure, especially as she's much the same basic character as Supergirl, wouldn't seem to work, and in fact long term with the Palmiotti run didn't, as far as selling her as a character. Notice how quickly DC abandoned trying to sell HER as one of the "New Icons" during that run. Happened within about six issues, almost certainly due to the lower than expected initial sales followed by the incredibly rapid drop in sales during that run. And it isn't that PG doesn't have an audience capable of sustaining a solo, look at the Johns mini. Sure it wasn't that great, but it WAS a dramatic presentation of the character...well, somewhat. And the initial sales on that one was in the 95,000 range IIRC, a pretty good figure for a character that had never been promoted at all at that point, and one without a lot of name recognition among the wider comic book reading public of the time.

    And yes, the quality of stories MATTERS. Period, full stop. Give her the sort of stories she's had to date, (very few in number, she really has never gotten a sustained push the way characters like Cyborg or the Jaime Reyes BB have despite their own more serious issues with sales), and sure she's going to do poorly. Give her stories on a par with the great Superman, Batman, or WW stories, and you'll see a building fan base as more people discover her. It isn't rocket science, but it all starts with a commitment from DC to the character, and to do justice to her in her own stories at the least. Obviously at the time, DC saw pretty big potential in her, putting her as one of the "New Icons", probably from feedback from JSA, and of course then the sales of the Johns mini. But the utter failure of the Palmiotti run to get and keep sales made them drop it. Sales argue that fans did NOT love the Palmiotti run, quite the opposite, once it became clear what he was doing with her, they left in droves.

    The irony is that his original pitch, or at least the one he mentioned about a year before his run started in an interview on the Rama, seemed both fun and less overtly comedic, though of course we don't know how it would have proceeded had he actually delivered on it, (it has been memory holed and I can't even find it on the wayback machine, but as I recall overall it had a fun Silver Age vibe in the sense that all sorts of weird stuff was happening). Sort of X-Files for superheroes.

    And while the Winick run doesn't get mentioned as often on boards as the Palmiotti run, it too is collected in trade. The problem with the Winick run wasn't that he went in a more dramatic way, it was that it was bad. Winick was trying to run a crossover book at the time, and he geared his PG into it, with the result that it was a mess, with much of her story told outside of her own solo. And of course he didn't do a good job. And he gave PG an irritating inner voice unique to his writing of the character; no other writer has given her a voice like that.

    Don't get me wrong, I don't want a sturm and drang PG all the time; in fact I don't think it's a good fit for the character; I'd rather leave that for some other character. But I also don't want a PG who is only a one-note joke as Palmiotti and Gray seem to regard her.

    IMO, a Power Girl solo should have a balance, leaning toward a mostly light but not comedic take on the character...with plenty of epic balanced with some smaller stories. She should be a Silver Age style heroine, (yes, I'm aware she's actually a Bronze Age character), with those sorts of adventures.

    Putting it another way, imagine if it had been possible for Darwyn Cooke to write and draw her in her own solo title.
    Hey man, I'm actually with you in that I want her book to balance both. I have the whole run in single issues and trade. She's one of my absolute favorites and if she appears, I usually give the book a look. I'm just arguing that she's got a set of creators that clearly love and want to use her and that kind of passion is something Karen severely needs. It's a run that's been met with a lot of praise, and while the sales aren't spectacular, neither are a lot of characters we consider larger than her.

    https://www.comicsbeat.com/dc-comics...les-june-2011/

    She was selling 3k below Supergirl, a character arguably a full tier above her, and on par with Zatanna, Batman and the Outsiders and a few others. She was in the ballpark of Batgirl, Superboy and some others. Superman was only doubling her, with 'Tec and Action just a bit over double as well. Overall DC sales were stagnating pretty hard. And this was in the Winnick tailspin, which admittedly wasn't as bad a sales drop off as I'd argue it deserved (but I'm admittedly pretty hard on Judd Winnick).

    Going back to the actual Jimmy/Justin/Amanda run:

    https://www.comicsbeat.com/dc-comics...les-june-2010/

    She had her usual first few issue freefall most comics face and then leveled out pretty solidly through their run. Simone's Secret Six (a critical and fan darling) was seeing very similar numbers outside a spike. This is the fate of a lot of DC's secondary books at the time. Some books (like Gotham City Sirens, which had Dini's star on it for a little while) placed marginally higher, but it's not like PG was a sore spot for DC. For what it's worth, I do think her sales figures are damning enough that we won't see her get another solo for a while unless JSA is doing well and a high profile team wants to take her on. Priest wasn't able to get a book going on, so they gotta be a bigger name than him.

    Overall, do I want a book that balances drama and humor? 100%. Nightwing is a favorite character of mine and I love his sense of humor, but his best run (not counting Grayson) is Dixon's and he broods like a champ in that thing. Still has its points of levity, but it's a darker take. Like Karen, he can support both. Like Dick, I'm willing to take a more serious or humorous take as long as it's good, but I don't think going hard in one direction is a bad idea for either character.

    Karen's niche should be big, fun adventure. Marvel movies are probably the right tone for her; not overly dramatic, but fun and contemporary.

    Darwyn would have been a dream, but I would let him work on anything he wanted. He was a unique talent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Or the Chosen One the fandom unites behind.

    There'd be tons of backlash at first, no matter what. But how many books got that kind of reception only for fans to realize that it was/is really good? Again, I bring you exhibit A: Grayson. A hook no one believed in that everyone came to love.



    Man, I wish I could get an hour of Didio's time. One hour, and I could convince him to give me Nightwing. And I'm only *mostly* joking about that.

    As for comedy titles and the direct market and all that.....I think the direct market shouldn't even be much of a consideration. There's other distribution avenues now, and books like Ms. Marvel, Squirrel Girl, Moon Girl, etc., that have found success there. I don't think the direct market would support Power Girl whether the book was serious and "important" or a comedy title. Seriously, I don't think quality or direction would matter, the direct market would never try the book to find out if it was good or not (looking at you, Jimmy Olsen and Lois Lane books!)

    But Scholastic, digital, trade, or those other formats? Oh yeah, Karen could build up a damn solid following in one of those places.

    As for approach and tone, I'd think that something like Ms. Marvel would work. Relatively light hearted and fun but not without pathos, consequences, or drama.
    Don't get me started on the direct market. It kills me. As much as I'd love another PG ongoing (and would probably get multiple covers to support the book), she should probably be a digital comic that gets trade releases but not single issues. The direct market won't support a lot of quality books because a lot of us knuckleheads won't buy them. Look at Jimmy right now as an example. I would argue a lot of titles would be able to justify themselves in digital and then trade (like Injustice) as opposed to the usual method with is more costly... And I much prefer having a book I can hold, read and collect.


    Quote Originally Posted by achilles View Post
    A crying shame we never got to see him do that.

    5183085055_d747895e60_z.jpg

    Gives off a 50s vibe with PG as Marilyn Monroe in Vegas. I totally would have bought that book.
    Man, I'm with you. Barring a time displayed Cooke, I've always wanted to see Evan "Doc" Shaner's take on Karen. Maybe I'll get a convention sketch someday.
    Last edited by Robanker; 01-13-2020 at 06:58 PM.

  13. #73
    Incredible Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2019
    Posts
    525

    Default

    Yeah, big fun adventure...with less darkness than some of the other DC titles. That would be great. And I do like her in comedy, just not all the time. I'd never heard of Shaner...but looking at images of his stuff, oh yeah, I'd sign on to see him do art for her! He's got a somewhat similar vibe to his art as Cooke I think. But who would write something like that?

    Also I think the chances of her getting a solo...well, they aren't necessarily derailed by her old sales. Given that DC has given multiple solos to characters with worse sales. And if they want they can start with another mini...which would be a great place to give her a big space adventure origin story. I just really want to see something similar to what Cooke seems like he would have done with her given the commissions he did based on her, (I'm assuming those are commissions and not just him fooling around).

    Obviously she really can't be set in the 50s like that given the rest of the DCU, (though an Elseworlds type thing set then with her given that look...yeah, I'd still buy it if the art was good and someone wrote it on a level with Cooke), is set basically now.

    I'd also like to see former Witchblade artist...oh I just can't spell his name, sorry, but you know who, draw her for a bit.

    But apart from maybe Gail Simone and one or two others, I don't know who I'd like to write a PG mini or monthly.

    I do think given the DC art that she'll be back with the JSA whenever they really make their comeback. At least that.

  14. #74
    Astonishing Member Robanker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    San Jose, CA
    Posts
    2,105

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by achilles View Post
    Yeah, big fun adventure...with less darkness than some of the other DC titles. That would be great. And I do like her in comedy, just not all the time. I'd never heard of Shaner...but looking at images of his stuff, oh yeah, I'd sign on to see him do art for her! He's got a somewhat similar vibe to his art as Cooke I think. But who would write something like that?

    Also I think the chances of her getting a solo...well, they aren't necessarily derailed by her old sales. Given that DC has given multiple solos to characters with worse sales. And if they want they can start with another mini...which would be a great place to give her a big space adventure origin story. I just really want to see something similar to what Cooke seems like he would have done with her given the commissions he did based on her, (I'm assuming those are commissions and not just him fooling around).

    Obviously she really can't be set in the 50s like that given the rest of the DCU, (though an Elseworlds type thing set then with her given that look...yeah, I'd still buy it if the art was good and someone wrote it on a level with Cooke), is set basically now.

    I'd also like to see former Witchblade artist...oh I just can't spell his name, sorry, but you know who, draw her for a bit.

    But apart from maybe Gail Simone and one or two others, I don't know who I'd like to write a PG mini or monthly.

    I do think given the DC art that she'll be back with the JSA whenever they really make their comeback. At least that.
    I would love to see a PG story written by (and this is by no means an exhaustive list) Amy Chu, Gail Simone or Jeff Parker and drawn by Doc Shaner. I'd pay big money for that.

    I'd have Shaner on any book he wants if I had my way. His style has a retro vibe while feeling totally modern; it's timeless. Absolute poetry on every panel.

    Jimmy and Amanda are always welcome back to PG as far as I'm concerned, but we'll agree to disagree there.
    Last edited by Robanker; 01-13-2020 at 08:09 PM.

  15. #75
    Incredible Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2019
    Posts
    525

    Default

    I should perhaps clarify that I had no problem with Amanda's art, it was the writing I didn't like. The only issue with Amanda was that doing all that detail wore her out rather quickly. I don't know how she managed to keep up as well as she did, (lead time I'm guessing).

    I will say that Waid, whatever else anyone thinks of him, got her right in that Brave and Bold issue with Wonder Woman...though it did continue to trope of PG being mind controlled. And I liked that James Robinson remembered that she's smart, more so than a human being could be, like SG. Then there was the guy who wrote that JSA vs Kobra thing, which was mainly a Mr. Terrific story, but had PG in a decent supporting role. But I'm sure the first person to write a truly classic PG story probably isn't anyone on my radar.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •