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  1. #31
    Ultimate Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by witchboy View Post
    On the whole discussion of Perez's effect on Steve, it feels like that it's a dated issue too of a strong woman not being able to have a relationship - like it's a choice, she can be strong, or she can have a man/love, but not both. I can't help but see a parallel with Star Trek Voyager and Janeway. Kate Mulgrew opposed letting Janeway have an ongoing relationship because she was it as something that could weaken the character. So that may be seen as an attitude that was part of that late 80s/90s era.
    So not only did Perez erase the Steve and Diana romance, he didn't let Diana have any noteworthy romance. Other writers tried to do something with Diana's love life, Trevor Barnes comes to mind, and the name clearly was an homage to Steve Trevor - and it was daring at the time for Diana to have an interracial relationship - but her love life didn't really take off until Steve was returned in New 52, which I'll grudgingly admit is one of the few things New 52 did right.
    I think aging Steve up was a short-term benefit, long term negative thing. It was an interesting route to take him at the time considering how Steve had been used for decades before that and also removed the whole “Diana falls in love with the first man she sees” thing. But long term it did end up contributing to her supporting cast being less consistent than other characters. Though that’s as much other writers as was Perez.

  2. #32
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Perez really did just throw the baby out with the bathwater when it came to Steve Trevor and lost one of the two anchors she had in terms of supporting cast (the Amazons and Steve/Etta). He laid the groundwork for a solid run, but my god was that a boneheaded move. You can get away from her falling in love with the first man she sees by just getting them off the island before anything happens and have her so overwhelmed with man's world that she kind of doesn't really think about Steve like that for a while and just build them up over time. It's not like she's going to see cars, smart phones, guns and a Green Lantern and think "but when do I get to kiss Chris Pine?"

    Okay, maybe she would, but still. Perez overcorrected.

  3. #33
    Astonishing Member WonderScott's Avatar
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    One characterization aspect about Steve that I liked in his DCnU reintroduction is that he is a human thrust into a world suddenly, or very recently, burgeoning with superheroes, magic, deities, aliens, super tech, etc.

    Diana is often saddled with a fish out of water characterization, but Steve could be the same just as easily with the new “super” natural elements of the world. He and Etta are great characters to explore, in different ways, the mundane colliding with the magical. He’s primed to be the basis of new myths, given his proximity to Diana and the gods and how they’ve interacted with humans over time.

    There’s so much to explore between them and for Steve to be the human anchor and perspective in stories instead of just being there - editors and writers need to learn to start saying something with him.

  4. #34
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    Agreed. I mean how cool would it be for Steve to go on a battle of his own? That due to how often he been with Diana he does get a big win every now and then. I mean if we go and keep that he was able to take the JLNow. That could be because he was using some mythical items too.

  5. #35
    Ultimate Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    Perez really did just throw the baby out with the bathwater when it came to Steve Trevor and lost one of the two anchors she had in terms of supporting cast (the Amazons and Steve/Etta). He laid the groundwork for a solid run, but my god was that a boneheaded move. You can get away from her falling in love with the first man she sees by just getting them off the island before anything happens and have her so overwhelmed with man's world that she kind of doesn't really think about Steve like that for a while and just build them up over time. It's not like she's going to see cars, smart phones, guns and a Green Lantern and think "but when do I get to kiss Chris Pine?"

    Okay, maybe she would, but still. Perez overcorrected.
    Yeah, I think the movie showed you can still have the romance angle but not make it like how the dated cliche from the Martston stuff.

    Granted that was decades after Perez and later attempts in the interval to modernize Steve and Diana's romance had their own problems.

  6. #36
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    Yea rebirth made him a whiny guy. Steve was never like that. I wouldn't mind he doubted himself but after that he never thoughts he loved Diana. I

  7. #37
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmiMizuno View Post
    Yea rebirth made him a whiny guy. Steve was never like that. I wouldn't mind he doubted himself but after that he never thoughts he loved Diana. I
    Steve will never be worthy of Diana until writers just give him his own **** to do. I don't much care if we see it often, but he needs to not look at her being busy as a bad thing and whining she has no time for him. If Lois Lane can understand Clark is Superman and she needs to do her own thing as a reporter, then Steve can figure out Diana is kind of busy sometimes and that's not a reflection on her feelings for him.

    It's really telling how little writers seem to know about adult relationships that they don't seem to understand there are times your jobs don't line up in a way to give you satisfying time with your significant other and that's part of life in the 21st century.

  8. #38
    Ultimate Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmiMizuno View Post
    Yea rebirth made him a whiny guy. Steve was never like that. I wouldn't mind he doubted himself but after that he never thoughts he loved Diana. I
    Was thinking of stuff more like the '09 movie where Steve came off like a college frat member. And I guess also Nemesis from the post-Infinite Crisis revamp who was pretty much a Steve stand-in.

    Thought Steve was fine Rebirth under Rucka though yeah, like mostly everything else in Rebirth WW he certainly hasn't fared well since.

  9. #39
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    Okay, what is Steve in the Wonder Woman mythos? Sure he is a dame but Marston even made him worthy. I like the idea he has some knowledge of mythical ideas or at least Diana's ideas. Maybe he gets his own personal weapon.

  10. #40
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmiMizuno View Post
    Okay, what is Steve in the Wonder Woman mythos? Sure he is a dame but Marston even made him worthy. I like the idea he has some knowledge of mythical ideas or at least Diana's ideas. Maybe he gets his own personal weapon.
    I think he needs to stay relatively normal. Lois doesn't need a weapon. If people can't see Steve as a man worth Diana because he's not able to fight on her level, that's their problem not his. Steve should embody confidence without toxic masculinity. He's a pilot and spy. His weapon is charm and a sidearm and he gets by just fine. Lois is absolutely the template you follow. Just make him great at what he does, but don't try fixing him by giving him powers or the lasso of beer pong or something.

  11. #41
    Extraordinary Member kjn's Avatar
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    I think one huge issue with Steve is that most comic book writers suck at writing characters and relations. It's a self-reinforcing problem, really. Relations took a backseat to action, and thus writers didn't need to learn how to do relations well, and writers who were good at writing relations were not valued for that. And that impacts readers as well, especially with a market that isn't about bringing in a constant stream of new readers.

    Because I think it makes a lot of sense that Steve is insecure about his relationship with Diana, at least some of the time. Not in the sense that he doubts that she loves him, but in asking what he can bring to their relationship, and what Diana sees in him.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  12. #42
    Ultimate Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    I think one huge issue with Steve is that most comic book writers suck at writing characters and relations. It's a self-reinforcing problem, really. Relations took a backseat to action, and thus writers didn't need to learn how to do relations well, and writers who were good at writing relations were not valued for that. And that impacts readers as well, especially with a market that isn't about bringing in a constant stream of new readers.

    Because I think it makes a lot of sense that Steve is insecure about his relationship with Diana, at least some of the time. Not in the sense that he doubts that she loves him, but in asking what he can bring to their relationship, and what Diana sees in him.
    Thought the Steve Trevor special and one of AOP issues played with this concept a bit.

  13. #43
    Extraordinary Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    Thought the Steve Trevor special and one of AOP issues played with this concept a bit.
    Yeah, and Wilson seemed ready to explore it seriously, with the result was that a lot of people here branded him a whiner. So it's quite tricky to do—you need it to be a real thing without overwhelming the narrative, and be aware that a lot of readers are hypersensitive or skittish due to earlier bad takes on the characters.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  14. #44
    Ultimate Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    Yeah, and Wilson seemed ready to explore it seriously, with the result was that a lot of people here branded him a whiner. So it's quite tricky to do—you need it to be a real thing without overwhelming the narrative, and be aware that a lot of readers are hypersensitive or skittish due to earlier bad takes on the characters.
    Think that last bit actually applies to a lot of concepts in WW outside of just the Diana/Steve relationship. Earlier poorly-received iterations poisoned the well for some.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmiMizuno View Post
    Yea rebirth made him a whiny guy. Steve was never like that.
    I agree. As much as I appreciate him being back in his physical prime, I don't think he needs to be around absolutely all the time (maybe every couple arcs or so). I like the idea that he has his own stuff to do and that he's not simply waiting for Diana to finish up beating up a monster to make time for him. I more like the idea that they have to make time for each other because of the busy schedules they both have (he being a spy and her being a superhero).

    I also dislike the idea of him feeling insecure about his place in the world due to the presence of superheroes. If it were up to me to characterize Steve, I'd have him simply accept it as fact - simply a new facet of his job that he has to adapt to. That's it. He knows who he is and his place in the world and superheroes are simply a new wrinkle to that, nothing more.

    And I think that's why a woman as impressive as WW would fall for a man like that.
    Keep in mind that you have about as much chance of changing my mind as I do of changing yours.

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