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  1. #1021
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    Cool, cool. This is anecdotal but from what I've seen they're from a younger generation, picking up around Decimation rather than Onslaught. Other factors include that they side with the X-villains rather than the X-men ideologically and the Wanda from House of M was how they learnt about her, and they see the Avengers as "the establishment" who are just as bad as Orchis. It's also just forums, who are a minute portion of the fandoms it's difficult to tell what all of fandom thinks online. I definitely think Wanda being in the MCU helps her, I didn't become a fan until Heroes Return and I watched the 90's Iron Man cartoon. Hopefully it'll improve in time, I think series like Uncanny Avengers have given her more positive material in the comics to die her forward. But I've found she really needs writers to go to bat for her, without that she's stuck being obscure or getting another House of M/Darker Than Scarlet when the story calls for it. What worries me is that House of M has done permanent damage in the comics to her with the creators like Hank Pym's slap did so it'll be a constant thrown in her side whenever someone wants to write her who's influenced by those storylines.
    I see. So it's basically a generational thing. These readers were first exposed to Wanda during one of the worst periods of her characters' history. Judging by how popular the mutant community is among comic book fans, I sort of understand why they dislike her. But judging people for one mistake they made in a moment of grief seems pretty harsh to me. But I TOTALLY agree with you about the possibility of comic creators going back to the well again to make her a villain. She's one of the rare superheroes who has turned heel on numerous occasions, and we know the comic book industry LOVES drama and dysfunction in their storytelling so they'll probably make her turn heel again when the situation requires it. It's like Pietro and Wanda committed the original sin by signing up with the cornily-named Brotherhood of EVIL Mutants. I also HATE what the comics did with Hank Pym's slap. Just because of that lone act, I believe the MCU did not put in Hank and Jan as founding members of the Avengers in the movies. Which is a total shame because they have such an interesting history in the comics and important role in the Avengers. I definitely DISLIKE how Marvel Comics deals with mental illness. To have heroes like Hank and Wanda lash out because of their mental illness just stigmatizes it amongst comic book readers. It's been proven often enough that people who suffer from mental illness are WAY more likely to suffer from violence than to mete it out. But clearly Marvel did not get the memo. By the way, speaking of bad characterizations of people in Marvel, what is the reputation of Pietro and Jean Grey these days in the books? When I read about Quicksilver back in the day, he was undeniably an asshole. He was never truly evil, just kind of a dick. Is Pietro's dickishness still a part of his personality today (I kind of like that aspect of his character)? And what about Jean Grey. I definitely recall her committing a casual genocide while being "possessed" during the Dark Phoenix Saga. How's her popularity today? Has she been forgiven for her transgressions? I think the only difference between Wanda and Jean Grey is that the former "killed" less people, but some of those people were popular superheroes so it damaged her reputation severely. Whereas Jean Grey killed a bunch of faceless aliens on a far away planet (although her body count was WAY higher than Wanda's).
    Last edited by Albert1981; 05-27-2020 at 07:47 AM.

  2. #1022
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    Quote Originally Posted by GenericUsername View Post
    You sure can. But some of them already got some changes and new focus. And then there were the X-ladies in Claremont's prime that were handled far differently than women had been up to that point. Comics can be a minefield but some of it had started to be cleaned up a bit.
    Didn't Byrne and Ordway transform Sue Storm into Malice during the 1980s after a trip to outer space? I remember reading about her adopting the Malice persona and going completely batshit crazy for a while. It was basically a rehash of the Dark Phoenix storyline, right? I think Claremont was in his prime during that era as well. I guess that was a warm-up of what Byrne would do to Wanda in a few years. I remember an interviewer mentioning to Byrne that he had a reputation for hating to write about women and he responded that, no, he LOVED writing about them!

    I also love the fact that Marvel continues to blame Skrulls and Doombots for whatever bad acts superheroes commit in their universe. Are they STILL doing that nowadays? If so, I'm pretty sure that the books themselves are being written by Skrulls and Doombots.
    Last edited by Albert1981; 05-27-2020 at 07:55 AM.

  3. #1023
    Tyrant Sun User leokearon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albert1981 View Post
    I see. So it's basically a generational thing. These readers were first exposed to Wanda during one of the worst periods of her characters' history. Judging by how popular the mutant community is among comic book fans, I sort of understand why they dislike her. But judging people for one mistake they made in a moment of grief seems pretty harsh to me. But I TOTALLY agree with you about the possibility of comic creators going back to the well again to make her a villain. She's one of the rare superheroes who has turned heel on numerous occasions, and we know the comic book industry LOVES drama and dysfunction in their storytelling so they'll probably make her turn heel again when the situation requires it. It's like Pietro and Wanda committed the original sin by signing up with the cornily-named Brotherhood of EVIL Mutants. I also HATE what the comics did with Hank Pym's slap. Just because of that lone act, I believe the MCU did not put in Hank and Jan as founding members of the Avengers in the movies. Which is a total shame because they have such an interesting history in the comics and important role in the Avengers. I definitely DISLIKE how Marvel Comics deals with mental illness. To have heroes like Hank and Wanda lash out because of their mental illness just stigmatizes it amongst comic book readers. It's been proven often enough that people who suffer from mental illness are WAY more likely to suffer from violence than to mete it out. But clearly Marvel did not get the memo. By the way, speaking of bad characterizations of people in Marvel, what is the reputation of Pietro and Jean Grey these days in the books? When I read about Quicksilver back in the day, he was undeniably an asshole. He was never truly evil, just kind of a dick. Is Pietro's dickishness still a part of his personality today (I kind of like that aspect of his character)? And what about Jean Grey. I definitely recall her committing a casual genocide while being "possessed" during the Dark Phoenix Saga. How's her popularity today? Has she been forgiven for her transgressions? I think the only difference between Wanda and Jean Grey is that the former "killed" less people, but some of those people were popular superheroes so it damaged her reputation severely. Whereas Jean Grey killed a bunch of faceless aliens on a far away planet (although her body count was WAY higher than Wanda's).
    The difference between Wanda and Jean is that Jean's diabolical act was retconed to be that of a cosmic chicken taking her form, while Wanda has no such retcon. Also the hypocrisy with some heroes and Marvel is legendary see Hank Pym Vs Peter Parker.
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  4. #1024
    Incredible Member Cruelrain's Avatar
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    Jean was recently accussed by the current x-men writer as a murdered of billion of people...

  5. #1025
    Ultimate Member Wiccan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by leokearon View Post
    The difference between Wanda and Jean is that Jean's diabolical act was retconed to be that of a cosmic chicken taking her form, while Wanda has no such retcon. Also the hypocrisy with some heroes and Marvel is legendary see Hank Pym Vs Peter Parker.
    I don't think any Jean fans like this retcon though. It cheapens the story(which unlike HOM/Disassembled is actually good) and also erases Jean's whole Phoenix run, not just DPS.

    The real difference is that no one cares about broccoli people that were created literally on the same issue they died for that purpose only, while people obviously care about mutants. And that Jean was possessed from the beginning and latter stories acknowledge that, while for Wanda the possession aspect was a retcon that rarely gets mentioned.

  6. #1026

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    Quote Originally Posted by Albert1981 View Post
    Didn't Byrne and Ordway transform Sue Storm into Malice during the 1980s after a trip to outer space? I remember reading about her adopting the Malice persona and going completely batshit crazy for a while. It was basically a rehash of the Dark Phoenix storyline, right? I think Claremont was in his prime during that era as well. I guess that was a warm-up of what Byrne would do to Wanda in a few years. I remember an interviewer mentioning to Byrne that he had a reputation for hating to write about women and he responded that, no, he LOVED writing about them!

    I also love the fact that Marvel continues to blame Skrulls and Doombots for whatever bad acts superheroes commit in their universe. Are they STILL doing that nowadays? If so, I'm pretty sure that the books themselves are being written by Skrulls and Doombots.
    Byrne had thing for good girl gone bad. It seemed to be a fetish of his. Byrne does have issues with women. Intended or not. The reason he wanted Jean punished for being the Phoenix was because they already had a powerful woman in Storm and one was enough.
    Was Curlytop

  7. #1027
    Tyrant Sun User leokearon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiccan View Post
    I don't think any Jean fans like this retcon though. It cheapens the story(which unlike HOM/Disassembled is actually good) and also erases Jean's whole Phoenix run, not just DPS.

    The real difference is that no one cares about broccoli people that were created literally on the same issue they died for that purpose only, while people obviously care about mutants. And that Jean was possessed from the beginning and latter stories acknowledge that, while for Wanda the possession aspect was a retcon that rarely gets mentioned.
    Well it's either a retcon or Jean chained to a radioactive Asteroid for all of eternity.
    The D'Bari debuted in Avengers Vol 1 #4, but were never major players.

    Still as I said before Marvel is full of hypocrisy when it comes to treatment of characters
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  8. #1028
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    Quote Originally Posted by GenericUsername View Post
    Byrne had thing for good girl gone bad. It seemed to be a fetish of his. Byrne does have issues with women. Intended or not. The reason he wanted Jean punished for being the Phoenix was because they already had a powerful woman in Storm and one was enough.
    I think part of the reason was due to Dark Phoenix being such a hit, Byrne wanted to recapture the magic with both Sue and later Wanda.
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  9. #1029
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cruelrain View Post
    Jean was recently accussed by the current x-men writer as a murdered of billion of people...
    Interesting. Thank you.

  10. #1030
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    Quote Originally Posted by leokearon View Post
    The difference between Wanda and Jean is that Jean's diabolical act was retconed to be that of a cosmic chicken taking her form, while Wanda has no such retcon. Also the hypocrisy with some heroes and Marvel is legendary see Hank Pym Vs Peter Parker.
    The double standards here are astounding. I remember the Clone Saga very well. It was really controversial. And I definitely remember Parker striking MJ. But that incident is pretty much forgotten today. I think it's because Spider-Man is Marvel's most popular character by far, so he gets a pass and Pym doesn't. I also think because Pym has a history of mental illness, people blame that aspect of his personality for his actions. To me, it just makes Hank more sympathetic in my eyes actually. But then again, I've always liked the "scientific" Marvel characters like Stark, Banner and Pym the most so maybe I'm biased towards Hank. The Edisons and Teslas of the Marvel Universe are the most interesting people in my eyes. Which makes me weird because I like the more "magical" Wanda and she's like the Houdini of the Marvel Universe!
    Last edited by Albert1981; 05-27-2020 at 11:42 AM.

  11. #1031
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    Quote Originally Posted by GenericUsername View Post
    Byrne had thing for good girl gone bad. It seemed to be a fetish of his. Byrne does have issues with women. Intended or not. The reason he wanted Jean punished for being the Phoenix was because they already had a powerful woman in Storm and one was enough.
    Yeah, it appears to be that way. Maybe it was just an excuse to draw women in skimpier clothing. Because insanity in the laydeez apparently seems to go hand in hand with increased sluttishness.
    Last edited by Albert1981; 05-27-2020 at 11:52 AM.

  12. #1032
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiccan View Post
    I don't think any Jean fans like this retcon though. It cheapens the story(which unlike HOM/Disassembled is actually good) and also erases Jean's whole Phoenix run, not just DPS.

    The real difference is that no one cares about broccoli people that were created literally on the same issue they died for that purpose only, while people obviously care about mutants. And that Jean was possessed from the beginning and latter stories acknowledge that, while for Wanda the possession aspect was a retcon that rarely gets mentioned.
    Funny that you mention that because Jean was possessed, she was forgiven for her past actions. In other fiction, people who committed vile acts while not "in their right minds", often DO get punished for their transgressions. Either by their victims and often times by their own hands. And that is regardless of their state of minds. Here are two examples that I know of:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repent...Trek:_Voyager)

    And

    https://allthingslawandorder.blogspo...own-recap.html

    I think Claremont and Byrne originally wanted Jean Grey to die as a punishment for her actions, but due to editorial interference Jean was resurrected. I know that Jean is a great character and really popular, but if she had died during the Dark Phoenix Saga, the whole story would have concluded in a more logical and coherent manner. It would have been more poignant and meaningful, and the story would have been even more powerful than it already is. And aren't readers tired of stories in which heroes do bad things because they are possessed and/or brainwashed by villains? To me, that's really old hat, you know? It allows heroes to NOT face up to their mistakes in a way that seems really lazy in my opinion.
    Last edited by Albert1981; 05-27-2020 at 11:36 AM.

  13. #1033
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    Star 5, Wanda’s next appearance, will be released digitally on July 1.

  14. #1034
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cruelrain View Post
    Jean was recently accussed by the current x-men writer as a murdered of billion of people...
    Isn't that explained that as "Oh Phoenix and Jean are separated entity, the one who murdered an entire Solar System is actually just Phoenix cosplaying as Jean"?

  15. #1035
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albert1981 View Post
    Yeah, it appears to be that way. Maybe it was just an excuse to draw women in skimpier clothing. Because insanity in the laydeez apparently seems to go hand in hand with increased sluttishness.
    Well, I was thinking if the authors in question have some kind of dominatrix fetish...

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