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  1. #1111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sutekh View Post
    It would be a neat way to build up Chthon as a serious foe. He's supposed to be one of the eldest demon-god-thingies, on a level with Thor's mom, Gaea, fellow elder-demon-god-thingie Set, or pantheon heads like Odin or Zeus, but has generally been confined and limited to working through intermediaries, like a possessed Modred the Mystic, or a possessed Wanda.

    I think it could also elevate Wanda a bit, to have a foe that's close to Galactus or Mephisto-class, more than a match for even big-hitter Avengers like Thor, sort of the 'Dormammu' to her 'Dr. Strange.' Even if she's not going to get into a fist-fight with him, he could still send cultists, lesser demons or possessed flunkies to give her trouble, and she might be integral to breaking up various rites meant to draw power from him (and so increase his power in the world, and hasten his eventual return, and perhaps weaken the users to make them more susceptible to his influence?). That would be neat. Lesser mystical foes start using an invocation called 'Clutches of Chthon' to cause a cage of stone bars / pillars prisons to rise up and possibly begin closing in and crushing enemies, drawing power from him to fuel the invocation (the way Strange used to with the Winds of Watoomb or Crimson Bands of Cytorrak), but the hidden cost is that the more you draw his power into yourself, the more he's slithering inside you...

    (All sorts of evil entities could fuel invocations, that we'd never see someone like Dr. Strange using, but evil spellcasters could call upon the Dread Gaze of Dormammu or the Serpents of Set or the Tinders of Tolomaq or the Dagger of D'Spayre or Tiboro's Transport or the Lies of Loki or conjure the Hordes of Hela. Tons of options!)
    After growing exasperated with the failure of his lackeys to defeat Wanda, Chthon in his own panel will menacingly utter those famous words: "Fine, I'll do it myself." If you've lived for over ten thousand centuries, surely you would have acquired a decent sense of humor during that time!

    Don't get me wrong, humor should be deployed in an effective and useful way. If you make the villains too funny, they definitely lose their menacing quality. But I thought the whole "Mister Doctor" joke in Dr. Strange was funny as hell. We don't go to Marvel movies to be challenged, we go to be entertained. I'm still wondering, can the MCU's brand of comedy work in the comics? I mean if the heroes AND villains start "quipping" a lot, would fans and readers be alienated? Can comedy in general work in superhero comic books? Because MaximoffTrash and Sutekh have presented some really interesting ideas in a humorous way that I don't remember seeing in the comics before.
    Last edited by Albert1981; 05-31-2020 at 01:07 PM.

  2. #1112
    Incredible Member Cruelrain's Avatar
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    Can someone tell from what comic is this scan?

    And if it's cannon
    IMG_20200531_181742.jpg
    Last edited by Cruelrain; 05-31-2020 at 02:22 PM.

  3. #1113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cruelrain View Post
    Can someone tell from what comic is this scan?

    And if it's cannon
    IMG_20200531_181742.jpg
    That is from the CAPTAIN AMERICA & THE FALCON series by Christopher Priest. It IS canon, but there was some weirdness with Wanda around that time since it is just before "Avengers Disassembled" -- so there is doubt about how much of that Wanda was in her right mind for, and even how much of it was really her and how much was reality warped illusions from her losing control of her powers.

  4. #1114
    Incredible Member Cruelrain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dermie View Post
    That is from the CAPTAIN AMERICA & THE FALCON series by Christopher Priest. It IS canon, but there was some weirdness with Wanda around that time since it is just before "Avengers Disassembled" -- so there is doubt about how much of that Wanda was in her right mind for, and even how much of it was really her and how much was reality warped illusions from her losing control of her powers.
    Thanks you

  5. #1115

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    I think Christopher Priest had wanted to start a romance between the two but then Disassembled came up as an idea, and it was scrapped. So then they had panels where things didn't seem right. Wanda's not right, Cap keeps having PTSD moments. The art was great though.
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  6. #1116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albert1981 View Post
    Don't get me wrong, humor should be deployed in an effective and useful way. If you make the villains too funny, they definitely lose their menacing quality. But I thought the whole "Mister Doctor" joke in Dr. Strange was funny as hell.
    I think Mads Mikkelson really sold that, and the exchange, 'It's Strange.' 'Perhaps. Who am I to judge?' because it was all kind of straight, and not intentionally funny from the character, like one of Stark's quips. It's a fine line. Some saw not enough humor and want everything to be Guardians of the Galaxy/Deadpool level funny, others want more Nolan Batfilm level serious. (I found the comedy bits with the cape of levitation to be a bit much, personally. But it didn't ruin the movie for me or anything!)

    And I'd hope that anything funny about WandaVision stems from the surreal nature of the situation they are in, and some whacky 'Vizh doesn't get X' fish-out-of-water moments (like Cap often got, but delivered in such a way that it didn't make *him* look like a whacky guy).

    We don't go to Marvel movies to be challenged, we go to be entertained. I'm still wondering, can the MCU's brand of comedy work in the comics? I mean if the heroes AND villains start "quipping" a lot, would fans and readers be alienated? Can comedy in general work in superhero comic books? Because MaximoffTrash and Sutekh have presented some really interesting ideas in a humorous way that I don't remember seeing in the comics before.
    There have occasionally been some fun moments, but they have become fewer and further apart, IMO. I remember some from the '80s, often involving the X-Men (bowl of egg salad to the face! football game gone awry as the half-dozen overzealous ball-chasers all collide with each other and the wheelchair-bound Professor! Maddy's reaction upon being handed Kitty Pryde's 'cat' (actually a small dragon) to hold.) but also the Avengers (random passerby with a mohawk meets Thor on the sidewalk and offers to give him a haircut, and he looks at her mohawk and says, 'But how would my helmet stay on?').

    I feel like some the change comes from today's writers feeling like they have less turnaround time, and the 'storytelling' being tied to events, and feeling like they have to cram in X amount of story, while servicing all sorts of external agendas, such as setting up for the next big event, or dealing with crossover characters / editorially-mandated guest-stars, etc. and not having as much page space to devote to the characters kind of goofing off. So we don't get to see the X-Men having their annual baseball/football/basketball games, or Ben Grimm hosting his one-time regular poker games, at which Wonder Man, Beast, Nick Fury, Carol Danvers, She-Hulk, etc. were semi-regular players (also creating a non-sinister-Illuminati gathering of heroes from different corners of the MU, some X, some FF, some A, etc.).

  7. #1117
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    Quote Originally Posted by GenericUsername View Post
    I think Christopher Priest had wanted to start a romance between the two but then Disassembled came up as an idea, and it was scrapped. So then they had panels where things didn't seem right. Wanda's not right, Cap keeps having PTSD moments. The art was great though.
    Correct. Priest had planned it as a real romance, but then when the "Disassembled" plans came along they realized it could be adapted to fit into that so that's what they did.

    It was a weird time for Steve's love life. It seemed like every different writer working with Cap at the time was giving him a different love interest. Priest was setting up something with Wanda in CAP & FALCON. Chuck Austen had been setting up something between Cap and the new Captain Britain (Kelsey Leigh) in his AVENGERS run, but he was off the book before he got too far with it. At the same time, the other CAPTAIN AMERICA book had given Steve a new girlfriend named Rebecca Quan, but she was never mentioned again after that run and then the next writer (Kirkman) immediately brought Diamondback back into his life. Brubaker's run started right after that, and Diamondback was gone and Sharon Carter was back in his life (although it took a little while before they became a couple again).

  8. #1118

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dermie View Post
    Correct. Priest had planned it as a real romance, but then when the "Disassembled" plans came along they realized it could be adapted to fit into that so that's what they did.

    It was a weird time for Steve's love life. It seemed like every different writer working with Cap at the time was giving him a different love interest. Priest was setting up something with Wanda in CAP & FALCON. Chuck Austen had been setting up something between Cap and the new Captain Britain (Kelsey Leigh) in his AVENGERS run, but he was off the book before he got too far with it. At the same time, the other CAPTAIN AMERICA book had given Steve a new girlfriend named Rebecca Quan, but she was never mentioned again after that run and then the next writer (Kirkman) immediately brought Diamondback back into his life. Brubaker's run started right after that, and Diamondback was gone and Sharon Carter was back in his life (although it took a little while before they became a couple again).
    I remember this. It was a pretty odd time romance wise for Steve.
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  9. #1119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albert1981 View Post
    I apologize for being sloppy with my humor. I was just lumping Wanda with clichés about "people behind the scenes" manipulating characters and events for fun. It's been used so often so I was just joking about how Wanda can be part of that. I don't really know what's happened with Wanda in the past twenty years. I didn't know she was manipulated by Doom. And I didn't know Cassie Lang has become a superhero in recent years. I'm well aware mind control happens a lot in superhero comics. I was just teasing the fact that that theme has been used so often it's getting a little stale.
    No worries. Humour and tone can be harder to communicate in writing, I've found.

  10. #1120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    No worries. Humour and tone can be harder to communicate in writing, I've found.
    You seem to do a good job of it! It's usually a hit or miss with me (usually miss).

  11. #1121
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    Quote Originally Posted by GenericUsername View Post
    I remember this. It was a pretty odd time romance wise for Steve.
    It's only been recently revealed that the true love of Captain America's life is Bucky Barnes. All kidding aside, Marvel characters NEVER end up having new relationships after having established older ones. I just found out that Mary Jane and Peter, Jean Grey and Cyclops, Gambit and Rogue, Dr Strange and Clea, Colossus and Shadowcat, Daredevil and Elektra, the Hulk and Betty Ross, Thor and Jane Foster, Captain America and Sharon Carter ALWAYS seem to find their way back to each other. WITHOUT exception. I also believe that's why Vision and Wanda never had any serious relationships after they broke up. Too much history between them like all the others. That's why I say for these long-standing couples, just get hitched already. Enough with this love triangle (or sometimes square) horseshit drama. These dudes and chicks CONSTANTLY talk about how much they STILL love each other, but they don't do anything about it. I find that UNBELIEVABLY boring.
    Last edited by Albert1981; 06-01-2020 at 07:32 AM.

  12. #1122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sutekh View Post
    I think Mads Mikkelson really sold that, and the exchange, 'It's Strange.' 'Perhaps. Who am I to judge?' because it was all kind of straight, and not intentionally funny from the character, like one of Stark's quips. It's a fine line. Some saw not enough humor and want everything to be Guardians of the Galaxy/Deadpool level funny, others want more Nolan Batfilm level serious. (I found the comedy bits with the cape of levitation to be a bit much, personally. But it didn't ruin the movie for me or anything!)

    And I'd hope that anything funny about WandaVision stems from the surreal nature of the situation they are in, and some whacky 'Vizh doesn't get X' fish-out-of-water moments (like Cap often got, but delivered in such a way that it didn't make *him* look like a whacky guy).



    There have occasionally been some fun moments, but they have become fewer and further apart, IMO. I remember some from the '80s, often involving the X-Men (bowl of egg salad to the face! football game gone awry as the half-dozen overzealous ball-chasers all collide with each other and the wheelchair-bound Professor! Maddy's reaction upon being handed Kitty Pryde's 'cat' (actually a small dragon) to hold.) but also the Avengers (random passerby with a mohawk meets Thor on the sidewalk and offers to give him a haircut, and he looks at her mohawk and says, 'But how would my helmet stay on?').

    I feel like some the change comes from today's writers feeling like they have less turnaround time, and the 'storytelling' being tied to events, and feeling like they have to cram in X amount of story, while servicing all sorts of external agendas, such as setting up for the next big event, or dealing with crossover characters / editorially-mandated guest-stars, etc. and not having as much page space to devote to the characters kind of goofing off. So we don't get to see the X-Men having their annual baseball/football/basketball games, or Ben Grimm hosting his one-time regular poker games, at which Wonder Man, Beast, Nick Fury, Carol Danvers, She-Hulk, etc. were semi-regular players (also creating a non-sinister-Illuminati gathering of heroes from different corners of the MU, some X, some FF, some A, etc.).
    Yeah, you're right about Mads. It was hilarious because he was being perfectly serious and sincere at the time. I thought that the cape stuff was funny too (Tony mentioned that Stephen had a seriously loyal piece of outerwear later). But yeah, I enjoyed the humor particularly between Wong and Stephen:

    Strange: "Wong. Just Wong? Like Adele? Or Aristotle. Drake. Bono... Eminem."

    One of my favorite jokes came from the Guardians of the Galaxy:

    Star-Lord: "Well, on my planet, we have a legend about people like you. It's called Footloose. And in it, a great hero, named Kevin Bacon, teaches an entire city full of people with sticks up their butts that, dancing, well, is the greatest thing there is."

    The stuff in the comics you mention is pretty humorous, and shows that those superheroes AND villains don't take themselves seriously all the time. It's a pity that they don't do that today. I mentioned that the constant crossover events damages the comic book industry. They interfere with stories a LOT and stifle creative freedom. I'm hoping they fix this in the future. At least the MCU gave time for the characters to breath before the conclusion of the Infinity Saga. I don't want to give the impression that I just love jokes ALL the time in the Marvel movies. They need to mix things up with some serious moments too. That's why I'll never understand and agree with why SOME people hate on Whedon so much. I read it was largely because of him and Feige that we even got to see Vision and Wanda in the movies. They apparently had to fight for them over the strong objections of the Marvel Creative Committee. The discussion between Ultron and Vision at the end of Age of Ultron was incredible. Nobody I know of disputes that:

    Ultron: Stark asked for a savior, and settled for a slave.
    The Vision: I suppose we're both disappointments.
    Ultron: [laughs] I suppose we are.

    No battle going on. No major characters involved. Just a quiet moment between "father and son", so to speak.

    I agree about the fish out of water moments for Vision will be just what the doctor ordered. The show should poke fun at his complete inability to adapt to human social norms. And Wanda should give him a hard time about that. I also read somewhere that the two of them might often fight over the "state of their relationship" Dick Van Dyke Show style. That would be cool too. I'm actually curious what kind of job Vision will have. I can't imagine him laying brick, so I think a lecturer teaching history and philosophy at a university might be the way to go.

    I don't really understand the appeal of dark and serious superhero movies. It just doesn't make sense to me. These characters are wearing ridiculous outfits, fighting silly villains, and using powers that make no sense. And yet they can't make and/or take a joke? I guess the Batman franchise is sort of the exception. But let's be honest, is the Joker truly a traditional superhero movie? I think not!
    Last edited by Albert1981; 06-01-2020 at 04:55 PM.

  13. #1123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albert1981 View Post
    Yeah, you're right about Mads. It was hilarious because he was being perfectly serious and sincere at the time. I thought that the cape stuff was funny too (Tony mentioned that Stephen had a seriously loyal piece of outerwear later). But yeah, I enjoyed the humor particularly between Wong and Stephen:

    Strange: "Wong. Just Wong? Like Adele? Or Aristotle. Drake. Bono... Eminem."

    The stuff in the comics you mention is pretty humorous, and shows that those superheroes AND villains don't take themselves seriously all the time. It's a pity that they don't that today. I mentioned that the constant crossover events damages the comic book industry. They interfere with stories a LOT and stifle creative freedom. I'm hoping they fix this in the future. At least the MCU gave time for the characters to breath before the conclusion of the Infinity Saga. I don't want to give the impression that I just love jokes ALL the time in the Marvel movies. They need to mix things up with some serious moments too. That's why I'll never understand and agree with why SOME people hate on Whedon so much. I read it was largely because of him and Feige that we even got to see Vision and Wanda in the movies. They apparently had to fight for them over the strong objections of the Marvel Creative Committee. The discussion between Ultron and Vision at the end of Age of Ultron was incredible. Nobody I know of disputes that:

    Ultron: Stark asked for a savior, and settled for a slave.
    The Vision: I suppose we're both disappointments.
    Ultron: [laughs] I suppose we are.

    No battle going on. No major characters involved. Just a quiet moment between "father and son", so to speak.

    I agree about the fish out of water moments for Vision will be just what the doctor ordered. The show should poke fun at his complete inability to adapt to human social norms. And Wanda should give him a hard time about that. I also read somewhere that the two of them might often fight over the "state of their relationship" Dick Van Dyke Show style. That would be cool too. I'm actually curious what kind of job Vision will have. I can't imagine him laying brick, so I think a lecturer teaching history and philosophy at a university might be the way to go.

    I don't really understand the appeal of dark and serious superhero movies. It just doesn't make sense to me. These characters are wearing ridiculous outfits, fighting silly villains, and using powers that make no sense. And yet they can't make and/or take a joke? I guess the Batman franchise is sort of the exception. But let's be honest, is the Joker truly a traditional superhero movie? I think not!
    The 80's wrecked the comic industry when people got the wrong idea about stories like Watchmen, Killing Joke, etc and decided that "mature" story-telling was the way to go.

    Also the Batman franchise isn't the exception, Batman was never Dark and Edgy back in the Golden Age as people think. Seriously read batman's early stories and you will see how insane they are
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  14. #1124
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    Last edited by juan678; 06-01-2020 at 12:31 PM.

  15. #1125
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    or maybe Speed

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