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  1. #1486
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albert1981 View Post
    I kind of agree with you on the mutant thing. That's been part of their origins from the get-go, so I understand why readers are upset about that. But since the X-Men are living a disgraceful and disgusting lifestyle on that Lord of the Flies island of theirs, I'm glad Wanda's staying the hell away from that moral degeneracy by not being a mutant. And the X-fans hate the Fantastic Four NOW? This is reaching new heights of insanity!
    Yeah, they've cooled down on the Inhumans now because the X-Men are getting attention otherwise, a few years back, the Inhumans were public enemy #1 and called genocidal monsters who were clearly Nazi products designed to spread Aryan templates or some nonsense like that. With them out of the way, they can go back to hating the Avengers the most and include the FF with them.

  2. #1487
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albert1981 View Post
    I remember reading that old Scarlet Witch and Vision mini-series published in the 1980s. They were really lovey-dovey then. Lots of making out going on there. I actually prefer the WandaVision approach of using massive doses of humor in their relationship. It makes things more fun and relaxed. Even characters like Wanda and Vision don't need to take themselves so seriously all the time, you know? Look, I know posters here don't always like the quipping that takes place in MCU productions, but I think the general public does. So I fully support Wanda and Vision doing something a little different than what they normally would do in the comic books. This could be like their Thor: Ragnarok. And I haven't read the Uncanny Avengers, so I don't know how Simon and Wanda interacted there. I've also heard that the King book did show that Wanda and Vision still cared about each other a lot. I think that's why this series will be so successful. The source material for both of these heroes is so rich. And it's very different and unique from the other characters in the MCU.
    Thor: Ragnarok may be a bad example because a lot of fans of classic Thor felt it was a huge departure for the character and the success of this comedic, bro Thor meant that the comic version has been changed to resemble that version as well. The last thing I want is for Wanda to shed her character to become a jokester and then her comic version to be similarly changed or inverted or whatever excuse they'd invent to explain the personality swap. And yes, Tom King's series did show that there was still a lot of love between them but they both kinda realized there wasn't a future anymore so it was bittersweet. I kept hoping they'd be reunited by the end but it wasn't in the cards I guess.

  3. #1488

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    Quote Originally Posted by leokearon View Post
    Yeah, I don't mind Simon as long as he's not with Wanda
    Simon should always be with Beast. That was the much better, healthier relationship.
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  4. #1489

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    Quote Originally Posted by gurkle View Post
    I didn't have a problem with Simon being with Wanda in the 1998 run, since I think the Avengers needed a big juicy triangle like that and it was always pretty clear that Simon was not the "real Vision" or whatever. I also liked Simon's role in "Children's Crusade" as the only Avenger who would actually defend Wanda and call the rest of the team out for the way they'd been treating her after Avengers Disassembled (yes, I know the reason they abandoned her is "bad writing" but you still want to see a character call them out, just like X-Men fans enjoy seeing Wanda get called out for what she did).

    But Uncanny Avengers seemed like it was written by someone who read the first year of the 1998 run and then read Children's Crusade and never read anything that came after. It made absolutely no sense for Wanda and Simon to act like they were each other's true lovers. They had never been portrayed that way at any point; even her bringing him back was just based on the idea that she loved him, not that she loved him more than Vision.

    Remender was the inker for the last part of that Avengers run, but he and the penciler didn't do the issue where Wanda and Simon decide they're not really in love and that Wanda's true love is still Vision. It makes you wonder, if he had worked on that issue maybe he wouldn't have been so invested in the Wanda/Simon relationship? Who knows.
    By then the love triangle had already been done between Wanda/Vision/Mantis, so I was over that concept.
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  5. #1490

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    Quote Originally Posted by whitecrown View Post
    OMG, I didn't know all of this. When did he physically abuse Wanda? I've only read his appearances since Heroic Age onwards.
    It was in the Wonder Man solo book probably about 30 years ago now? Somewhere around there. She sleeps over at his place, he pushes her away after having pursued her a lot. Then punches at her with his fist landing right next to her head because he wanted to warn her that he wasn't good for her.
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  6. #1491

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    Quote Originally Posted by Albert1981 View Post
    Totally understand your point of view. I used to think that "relationship" had the potential to have some interesting drama between Mags and Wanda. Like a daughter trying to help her father mend the errors of his ways and assist him in redeeming himself. But the more I looked at it, the connection actually sort of "corrupted" Wanda more often than not. And I just felt any potential benefit of them being family was outweighed by the bad.

    You're right about the mutant stuff too. It's not like she was deeply involved with mutant politics either. She was a mutant that was part of another team. But others still claimed her as an X-Person. It's kind of like a Chinese person born and raised in the United States being claimed by China to be a Chinese citizen because of their ethnic origin. Ridiculous! I think the only thing Wanda has left to do in the MCU is to reach her full "magical" potential. Perhaps become a Sorceress Supreme. After that she can call it a day and ride off into that sunset. And when I mentioned mutants earlier, I meant that there hasn't been a week that has passed by since WandaVision was announced that some online article was published talking about how the show will bring in mutants. I mean, for crying out loud they're coming down the pipeline! Give Wanda and Vision some time for themselves while they still have time in the MCU.
    That's the problem with the relationship. It's all hopes and dreams. Because Wanda is anchored in Avengers lore. They'd have to have pulled her away from that years ago and had her serve the mutant cause for a while before it'd make sense for that to be so important. Marvel obviously didn't do that. And even after M-day didn't have her do that to make up for things done. So it's unlikely to ever happen. Even now that Marvel has had the movie rights back for over a year, they still haven't done it.
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  7. #1492
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    Quote Originally Posted by GenericUsername View Post
    That's the problem with the relationship. It's all hopes and dreams. Because Wanda is anchored in Avengers lore. They'd have to have pulled her away from that years ago and had her serve the mutant cause for a while before it'd make sense for that to be so important. Marvel obviously didn't do that. And even after M-day didn't have her do that to make up for things done. So it's unlikely to ever happen. Even now that Marvel has had the movie rights back for over a year, they still haven't done it.
    That's awfully dismissive of Wanda and what she's lost being a mutant. Being an X-man isn't the only measurement for being 'down with cause" and that is only used to attack wWanda while mutants like Beast and Sunspot get to live in both worlds without being questioned by X-fandom. Marvel fumbling what she did after is not something under the character's control and it's not proof that she didn't try to fix M-Day or have remorse over it. Those are angles X-fandom has used to make her come off as unsympathetic. We don't know what will happen, there is no time limit for things to be closed off. In 20 years a writer could do something with it, that's comic books. Wanda hasn't been in anything since End Game, which was a cameo, and we don't know what's going to occur in her tv show or the Dr. Strange movie.

  8. #1493

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    That's awfully dismissive of Wanda and what she's lost being a mutant. Being an X-man isn't the only measurement for being 'down with cause" and that is only used to attack wWanda while mutants like Beast and Sunspot get to live in both worlds without being questioned by X-fandom. Marvel fumbling what she did after is not something under the character's control and it's not proof that she didn't try to fix M-Day or have remorse over it. Those are angles X-fandom has used to make her come off as unsympathetic. We don't know what will happen, there is no time limit for things to be closed off. In 20 years a writer could do something with it, that's comic books. Wanda hasn't been in anything since End Game, which was a cameo, and we don't know what's going to occur in her tv show or the Dr. Strange movie.
    It's not dismissive at all. I get you like it, but that doesn't mean there was a lot there. There was barely anything there. Your preference for it doesn't make it more.

    And I didn't say she didn't try to fix M-day. I said their chance to have her on that side primarily could have happened after M-day as in part of her making up for things done, and they didn't do it. You gotta read my posts more carefully if you are gonna try to take offense all the time.

    I'm talking about putting her on that side for most of her appearances. Which isn't gonna happen. Unless in 20 years they make her an X-character. Which would not be my preference. Because I like her being an Avenger. You can dream of her being on that side and Mags kid if you want. It just hasn't served her well. If she stays primarily an Avenger and a mutant, then you have the same as it was before. Mentioned at times, but nothing more than a fact about her.

    If you really think they had her serve the mutant cause while being an Avenger, I don't know what to do to help you with that kind of headcanon. Because they had only a couple instances where she was discriminated against, and only brought up her being mutant when she used her powers. Yes, you have to actually serve the cause for it to count. It being brought up in special moments is not enough.
    Last edited by GenericUsername; 06-20-2020 at 08:11 PM.
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  9. #1494
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    Quote Originally Posted by GenericUsername View Post
    By then the love triangle had already been done between Wanda/Vision/Mantis, so I was over that concept.
    Oh, I totally understand, but I just think the Avengers title needs romance arcs. That's my big problem with the Roger Stern era - hardly any romance at all. So it made sense to me that we would get Vision and Simon both wanting Wanda at some point. I'm just glad Byrne wasn't the one who did that story.

  10. #1495

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    Quote Originally Posted by gurkle View Post
    Oh, I totally understand, but I just think the Avengers title needs romance arcs. That's my big problem with the Roger Stern era - hardly any romance at all. So it made sense to me that we would get Vision and Simon both wanting Wanda at some point. I'm just glad Byrne wasn't the one who did that story.
    I really want them to explore the relationship with Brother Voodoo. But at this point I'm really doubting it.
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  11. #1496
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    Quote Originally Posted by GenericUsername View Post
    Simon should always be with Beast. That was the much better, healthier relationship.
    For both of them, really. Both characters have been a mess since those days.

    Arguably, the same is true of Wanda, post-Vision. As part of a 'power couple,' writers seemed less prone to mess with her, but once she was on her own, she became easy pickings for Byrne, Bendis, etc. to drive her cray-cray or whatever, between 'Darker than Scarlet' and 'No More Mutants.'

    I kinda wish they'd play up her Romani heritage a little for the shallow reason that, if she was visibly diverse, writers might fear the optics of heaping too much abuse on the character.

  12. #1497

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sutekh View Post
    For both of them, really. Both characters have been a mess since those days.

    Arguably, the same is true of Wanda, post-Vision. As part of a 'power couple,' writers seemed less prone to mess with her, but once she was on her own, she became easy pickings for Byrne, Bendis, etc. to drive her cray-cray or whatever, between 'Darker than Scarlet' and 'No More Mutants.'

    I kinda wish they'd play up her Romani heritage a little for the shallow reason that, if she was visibly diverse, writers might fear the optics of heaping too much abuse on the character.
    Byrne was why she ended up without Vision. But being without a relationship is not why she became a mess. Writers doing terrible things which happened when she was with Vision too is the problem. If they need their female characters to be attached to a male one to not destroy her, then they need to look closely at why that is, and fix that. Because that's heavily dated and sexist.
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  13. #1498
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    Quote Originally Posted by whitecrown View Post
    Yeah, they've cooled down on the Inhumans now because the X-Men are getting attention otherwise, a few years back, the Inhumans were public enemy #1 and called genocidal monsters who were clearly Nazi products designed to spread Aryan templates or some nonsense like that. With them out of the way, they can go back to hating the Avengers the most and include the FF with them.
    Well, haters need targets to hate. It just feels weird that mutants are doing the hating.

  14. #1499
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    Quote Originally Posted by whitecrown View Post
    Thor: Ragnarok may be a bad example because a lot of fans of classic Thor felt it was a huge departure for the character and the success of this comedic, bro Thor meant that the comic version has been changed to resemble that version as well. The last thing I want is for Wanda to shed her character to become a jokester and then her comic version to be similarly changed or inverted or whatever excuse they'd invent to explain the personality swap. And yes, Tom King's series did show that there was still a lot of love between them but they both kinda realized there wasn't a future anymore so it was bittersweet. I kept hoping they'd be reunited by the end but it wasn't in the cards I guess.
    They've made Thor into a clown into the comic books? This is news to me! What I meant to say is that movies like Thor: Ragnarok and Captain America: The Winter Soldier made those respective heroes more popular than ever after initially receiving lukewarm receptions. I think Vision and Wanda are in a bit of a better position right now, but I want them to become more likeable than they are even currently. This show will probably do that. I actually don't mind Wanda being a little less serious than I remember in the comic books. I thought She-Hulk, Captain Marvel and the Wasp were more charismatic than her at times. I didn't read the Tom King series, but I heard that they became good friends again after some time of estrangement. I always say her interactions with Vision bring out the best in her like no other character. But I understand why they can't get back together in the comics. They've hurt each other too much.

  15. #1500
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    Quote Originally Posted by GenericUsername View Post
    That's the problem with the relationship. It's all hopes and dreams. Because Wanda is anchored in Avengers lore. They'd have to have pulled her away from that years ago and had her serve the mutant cause for a while before it'd make sense for that to be so important. Marvel obviously didn't do that. And even after M-day didn't have her do that to make up for things done. So it's unlikely to ever happen. Even now that Marvel has had the movie rights back for over a year, they still haven't done it.
    I mean, the potential was pretty much lying there for some four decades for the creators at Marvel to do something creative with that relationship. I just don't know why they didn't, even with the Avengers/X-Men divide. What's the point of them being connected if nothing actually happens storywise? I do think it's way more likely for the comics to bring the family together again, but I'm almost certain that the MCU won't. Feige likes simplicity in the MCU and so do I. I think he wants to avoid retcons in the films. But since Feige is in charge of Marvel Comics now, I think the comics will PROBABLY follow the movies on this matter.
    Last edited by Albert1981; 06-21-2020 at 03:33 PM.

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