Wanda Maximoff: Scarlet Witch Appreciation 2020

[leokearon]

I think writers should use Heinberg initial ideas about Billy and Tommy being adopted by their actual parents while staying full blooded Wanda´s children, that way you just have to explain time travel and it simplifies the relationship between them, it also would explain their appareance Billy is like Wanda while Tommy is like Pietro. I think the WandaVision series will do somethign like this otherwise it will be too convoluted for the MCU.

Going by the info we have so far. Billy and Tommy in WandaVision are just going to be Wanda's kids and grow up naturally.

The comics really messed up Billy and Tommy in the comics, logically there is no way Billy and Tommy can be Wanda's kids; even if they were alive and allowed to grow up they would only around 8-9 not teenagers

[Cruelrain]

Unpopular opinion but i prefer them the way the are in the comics, it's weird for Wanda to take care of teenagers that aren't her sons and one of them has parents.

In WandaVision they might change this to make it more simple.

[Steel Inquisitor]

I never said that she didn't do enough or wasn't discriminated against. It also isn't "my opinion" that the mutant cause wasn't a focus in her life. You are exaggerating things to make it seem like there was more there than there was. And you are looking to take offense because all it is, is that you want her to have more in an arena she was never really in. You stretch out references that didn't really have much there to make it seem like there was stuff there that wasn't.

That as the underlying stance of your position about Wanda not being about the mutant cause and what she went through was dismissed like her experiences didn't matter. No, I'm just reading what's being said. Those events were huge impacts over her life, hardly instances which go against her for "being down with the cause." Wrong.

No one is gaslighting you. You read everyone's posts wrong. I don't know it it's on purpose or for bait. Maybe you are just bored. But you tried to accuse X-fans of racism when none of them stated anything close to that.

I disagree. I didn't read anything wrong and it's worrying you didn't. It wasn't just about the racism, you forgot the misogyny. Thankfully it's more civil here than in the X-forum.

You then try to accuse me of sticking Wanda only in the Avengers section? I don't write her. Also, wtf does now I care about gatekeeping mean? This thread was much friendlier before you started causing trouble here.

I'm simply reading your own opinions, which heavily imply an X-men vs Avengers dynamic. This isn't about the writing, it's about how people are reacting to that writing. I'm sure you know the answer to that. It doesn't bother you that people who openly loathe Wanda to a comical degree are posting? It's one thing to criticise characters you like, I do that myself, but to pretend everything is fine while knowing the context is baffling.

People have stopped arguing about AD/HoM because we've been doing it for years on this board literally. Some of us have been here before the forum reboot. It never changed anyone's opinion.

Those subjects are popular here, as well. Yes, many of us aren't new here - it has nothing to do with whether our opinions hold more weight.

Wanda already has my favor and doesn't have to be mutant nor Mags' kid to have it. And I'm not talking about how it affected her or her emotions or saying it's a negative about her. I'm saying that the stories about her being a mutant are the exception and not the rule. Which is true. Don't like it? You don't have to, but arguing with me about it isn't gonna change it.

Why downplay how being a mutant has shaped her life? Yet her support for the "mutant cause" is in question when other mutant Avengers aren't. I'm not arguing with you to change it, we're just voicing our opinions on the subject, Marvel will do what it wants. You're right that the majority of her adventures aren't defined by mutant storylines but how she is judged shouldn't be because of that.

I'm fine with where she's at because it separates her from M-day and from Mags who was truly a terrible father. I want her separated from that abuse. That isn't gonna change the more you try to exaggerate her time having mutant related stories to fit your fanon.

I'm not exaggerating anything. Except it's more than about her relationship with Magneto, it's Wanda failing to uphold the mutant cause.

Nothing that any other mutant has done on or off the Avengers has anything to do with Wanda. Nor does it compare to her amount of stories or their's. Some of them have more time in mutant stories than Wanda does, and far less time on the Avengers by far. And guess what? Doesn't make them bad characters!

Sure they do, they're mutants and Avengers - like Wanda is. Of course we can compare them and the opinions people have about their super-hero careers. This isn't about them being bad characters, it's puzzling why they remain unquestioned but Wanda's intentions aren't. But a non-answer is an answer in itself. This is about your standards for judging characters, they fulfil it she does not and I haven't been given any reasons why for that discrepancy.

So no, you aren't getting a direct answer because has NOTHING to do with Wanda.

I didn't get any answer, and this is about double standards. Wanda is singled out as the "bad one," while Beast is accepted without question.

[GenericUsername]

No, I'm just reading what's being said.

Sure you are. You are just trying to stir the pot. And have been since your first response. So not giving you the time of day anymore.

[whitecrown]

I think writers should use Heinberg initial ideas about Billy and Tommy being adopted by their actual parents while staying full blooded Wanda´s children, that way you just have to explain time travel and it simplifies the relationship between them, it also would explain their appareance Billy is like Wanda while Tommy is like Pietro. I think the WandaVision series will do somethign like this otherwise it will be too convoluted for the MCU.

Agreed, what the Scarlet Witch solo series was suggesting was frankly outlandish and unintelligible for most readers.

[Drops Of Venus]

Imo, it was a mistake for her solo series to try and address the discrepancies in Billy and Tommy's ages. With the sliding age scale, it was never going to be feasible that Billy and Tommy would be reborn again when Franklin Richards has been de-aged a dozen times over. And I'm not sure anyone likes the idea of Billy and Thomas' souls killing the two children who lived in those bodies before them. Children's Crusade had the best interpretation where they were straight reincarnations and nothing more. Trying to explain the logistics of it with time travel goes too far.

Heinberg's interpretation just ignored the problem... which doesn't make it go away. I mean, nevermind Franklin Richards. What about Luna Maximoff, who was born before William and Thomas and is significantly younger than both Wiccan and Speed? It's weird that no one would ever question what is up with that in a family meeting. He also created a problem when he decided to give a human biological family to Billy, because that obviously created a fixed origin for him at a certain time instead of him just being magically created/aged at any point. I think James Robinson did the best that he could to make sense of an already complicated story. I do think that Young Avengers failed to provide a more clear explanation about the origin of Billy and Tommy, because to this day, there are still a lot of fans confused about their origins and still a lot of debate about specific details.

I'm ok with the time travel theory, honestly. It's a simple, convenient way to explain their origins. And it's not like those characters are not used to time travel, anyway. Young Avengers has time travel at the core of its origin, and ironically, Wanda and Vision were married by the same time traveler who founded the YA. Who knows, maybe one day we'll find out it was all connected all along as a part of Kang's plans.

[Journey]

It is very confusing, volume 1 was just obscure about it, volume 2 I legit remember Teddy saying Billy was adopted, around New Avengers it went back to it's complicated, and then you have the Scarlet Witch series explanation which I don't even hold much value in because the Billy and Tommy who showed up in that looked like 12 so not even sure the author did much research on the situation.

[GenericUsername]

I don't envy any writers having to handle the kids situation.

[Sutekh]

Heinberg's interpretation just ignored the problem... which doesn't make it go away. I mean, nevermind Franklin Richards. What about Luna Maximoff, who was born before William and Thomas and is significantly younger than both Wiccan and Speed? It's weird that no one would ever question what is up with that in a family meeting. He also created a problem when he decided to give a human biological family to Billy, because that obviously created a fixed origin for him at a certain time instead of him just being magically created/aged at any point. I think James Robinson did the best that he could to make sense of an already complicated story. I do think that Young Avengers failed to provide a more clear explanation about the origin of Billy and Tommy, because to this day, there are still a lot of fans confused about their origins and still a lot of debate about specific details.

I'm ok with the time travel theory, honestly. It's a simple, convenient way to explain their origins. And it's not like those characters are not used to time travel, anyway. Young Avengers has time travel at the core of its origin, and ironically, Wanda and Vision were married by the same time traveler who founded the YA. Who knows, maybe one day we'll find out it was all connected all along as a part of Kang's plans.

My headcanon is that Billy and Tommy were real kids, perhaps even really named Billy and Tommy (perhaps not, and perhaps everyone just now *remembers* them with those names...), who had been in some way damaged and lost a significant portion of their souls. Dr. Strange has over the years included a notable number of 'astral parasites' or whatever that can feed off of or damage humans from another dimension, invisibly to humans in this dimension, and leave them hollowed out, losing much of their will or volition. The fragments of Mephisto's soul that had become 'corrupted' by their time as Wanda's children may have been vomited forth by Mephisto, who could not abide memories of being loved and cherished, as they tainted the purity of his evil and filled him with gushy human sentiments. Floating about, disembodied, these fragments found two young teens with the sorts of empty places within them to nestle, fitting like a hand in a glove, and giving two lives that had been basically run over and left dying on the side of the road by their encounters with the supernatural predators that Dr. Strange has been dealing with for the last decade or so in his book, a second chance. Having been nothing more than infants, in life, these soul-fragments didn't bring much, at all, in the vein of a personality to the union, only serving to strengthen and shore up (not replace) the incomplete souls they merged with, so that 'Billy' and 'Tommy' weren't possessed or replaced or devoured by these soul-fragments (who were themselves not complete souls, and didn't bring all sorts of 'self' to the mix), they were healed, made complete, the soul-fragments just sort of plugging the holes and bringing these soul-damaged youth back to the world of the living.

And that's the main reason I'd want to phrase it that way. To allow Billy and Tommy to indeed possess the spiritual connection to Wanda, and yet also *not* to have some rando teens have their entire lives stolen by these unasked for connections, and been kind of 'spiritually abducted' and forced into her family. 'Cause that's creepy. But if Billy and Tommy didn't have much of 'lives' left to them, through no fault of Wanda's or the soul-fragments, and were instead *saved* by the merger, and didn't become 'new people,' but simply had their old selves refreshed and made whole again (since the babies really didn't have much to offer in that arena anyway), I feel it's less problematic and 'child-nappy.'

Obviously it's more complex a concept than 'time travel!' or 'plot by Kang!,' but I'm okay with complex if it avoids creepy stuff like that Avengers story with Carol and Marcus, or stuff that damages Wanda as a character, like No More Mutants (which I feel like having two rando teens lose their lives and real families and history so that Wanda's imaginary babies can be reborn, and then mostly not be part of her life anyway, would do).

[Albert1981]

I understand everything can't make the jump from the comics to the films so I can see why characters like Drax were underpowered. Although Mantis really has no excuse. But I haven't been a fan of the new Thor at all and I really don't want anything like that to happen to Wanda and Vision, Wanda in particular. She's not a humorous character and she never really has been so it would feel inorganic for that to suddenly be a part of her personality. She shouldn't be wisecracking constantly especially when every other MCU character pretty much does so she'll actually feel more unique if she isn't. As Sutekh said, Elizabeth Olsen has enough range as an actress that she doesn't have to be limited to comedy and she can portray the emotional depth of Wanda in a way that Hemsworth couldn't as Thor. And Bettany is also a very prolific actor so his Vision doesn't need to be revamped. The sitcom aspects will be fun, but like I've said, that won't really be the real Wanda and Vision but an idealized version of them so I don't expect it to last permanently.

I hope Wanda and Vision get back together after the show comes out. Simon hasn't really ever been very popular so I can see why he never got a push. As much as I like Byrne, I despised what he did to Wanda and Vision and he should have stayed far enough away. It's bad enough he's responsible for the Magneto connection to the Maximoff twins. I also despise Brevoort and Quesada with an unhealthy passion lol for what they did to both Wanda and Jean.

Yeah, I understand Thor's transition into a clown has not been well-received by everybody. I personally think it's hilarious and saved the Thor franchise. But I get that lots of comic book fans don't like it. I have zero concerns that Wanda will become the Peggy Bundy of the MCU, because that would be very much against her character's personality. I just think she should show a lighter side of her personality, that's all. And if that leads to her being more playful in the comic books, I'm totally down for that!

You know, I sort of gave up on Wanda and Vision getting together a long time ago. Too much baggage and bad blood I thought. But after watching the movies, I began to think, yeah, maybe they should hook up again. This is not merely for nostalgic reasons, because their relationship in the movies is REALLY current. I just think Wanda can benefit a lot from having a family that she loves and loves her. And she could do a bunch of "domestic" things that would amuse readers. Plus, Vision would be an extremely unconventional partner. They might even need relationship therapy sessions sometimes because their family is so fucked up. I think they're sort of well-suited as a couple because quite frankly, they're both really weird. People wouldn't know her as this pariah and hate figure anymore. She'd be a loving wife and devoted mother. Something that is all too rare in superhero comic books. And that WOULD suit her personality too.

[Albert1981]

I know it's not a popular thing to defend John Byrne on this thread, but I'll actually take the plunge and do it. I actually AGREE with his objection to Wanda conceiving children by magic. I thought that entire notion was absolutely ridiculous. Even by comic book standards, I thought it was extremely weird and practically defied all common sense and reason. And it still causes a lot of problems for storytellers at Marvel Comics up to this day. It allowed the boys to be murdered by demons and it forced Wiccan and Speed to have the most convoluted origin story of all time in Marvel Comics' history. I don't agree with what Byrne did to Wanda and Vision when he tried to get rid of the babies, but I get why he thought her giving birth the way she did was ludicrous. What I find highly offensive is that Marvel turned something as benign and innocent as Wanda and Vision wanting to have a family into a sick, twisted and perverted saga that has destroyed a whole bunch of reputations and lives.

That's why I'm sort of hoping against almost all odds that Wanda gets pregnant through artificial insemination in WandaVision. Use Tony Stark's sperm to give life to the boys. That would both be funny, practical and realistic. One of the things I like best about the MCU is that it takes really outlandish comic book stories and GROUNDS them in the real world. I think it would be idiotic if Dr. Strange shows up at a hospital as an OB-GYN and helps delivers the boys. I hope Marvel doesn't ALWAYS use magic to explain things in WandaVision because that would be lazy writing in my opinion.

[Sutekh]

I think they're sort of well-suited as a couple because quite frankly, they're both really weird. People wouldn't know her as this pariah and hate figure anymore. She'd be a loving wife and devoted mother. Something that is all too rare in superhero comic books. And that WOULD suit her personality too.

On the one hand, yes, this would be cool, and something the comics have shied away from, and yet, contrarily, I am concerned that there's a perception that Sue Richards is going to be eating up all the 'mom' space (which is preposterous, the notion that there can be only one 'superhero mom' but it's a perception that's as persistent as the idea that a superhero can't be a mom, or married, at all). It's going to be interesting to see how bold Marvel is willing to be on the topic. Wanda, Jean, Sue, all come at parenthood in different ways. Sue is clearly mama bear, and is defined in later decades by her roles as wife and mother, and yet also manages to still function solo, at times. Wanda and Jean have sort of had teenage kids appear, on the other hand, and *not* been defined, at all, by the parental aspects sort of shadily tossed at them (much as male characters like Charles and Logan have had adult kids just sort of appear, and not require any sort of 'parenting' from the narrative).

I'd be interested in seeing how the MCU embraces or avoids that 'no consequences, no responsibility, suddenly kids' trope.

[Albert1981]

On the one hand, yes, this would be cool, and something the comics have shied away from, and yet, contrarily, I am concerned that there's a perception that Sue Richards is going to be eating up all the 'mom' space (which is preposterous, the notion that there can be only one 'superhero mom' but it's a perception that's as persistent as the idea that a superhero can't be a mom, or married, at all). It's going to be interesting to see how bold Marvel is willing to be on the topic. Wanda, Jean, Sue, all come at parenthood in different ways. Sue is clearly mama bear, and is defined in later decades by her roles as wife and mother, and yet also manages to still function solo, at times. Wanda and Jean have sort of had teenage kids appear, on the other hand, and *not* been defined, at all, by the parental aspects sort of shadily tossed at them (much as male characters like Charles and Logan have had adult kids just sort of appear, and not require any sort of 'parenting' from the narrative).

I'd be interested in seeing how the MCU embraces or avoids that 'no consequences, no responsibility, suddenly kids' trope.

Totally agree. My only concern with my OWN argument is that the Invisible Woman is basically one of the only major superhero females that's actually ALLOWED to be a wife and mother in the Marvel Universe. If Vision and Wanda had Wiccan, Speed, and Viv as kids, would they become the Sensational Five and take attention away from Marvel's First Family? The Fantastic Four would lose their originality and appeal as being the only functional family in the superhero world of Marvel. So I can see why Marvel would shy away from Wanda and Vision actually HAVING a family, even though it would make a lot of sense in many ways. And have Sue Richards and Jean Grey ever done "domestic" things in their comic books? Or were they just totally invested in the superhero stuff? I'd like to know because WandaVision is heavily leaning into the whole family dynamic thing way more than the Fantastic Four ever did in their previous movies as I can recall. I'm also curious to see how the MCU deals with kids of superhero parents later on. For some reason, I don't really consider Ant-Man and Iron Man to be potential superhero parents even though they clearly could be (in the MCU).

[leokearon]

I know it's not a popular thing to defend John Byrne on this thread, but I'll actually take the plunge and do it. I actually AGREE with his objection to Wanda conceiving children by magic. I thought that entire notion was absolutely ridiculous. Even by comic book standards, I thought it was extremely weird and practically defied all common sense and reason. And it still causes a lot of problems for storytellers at Marvel Comics up to this day. It allowed the boys to be murdered by demons and it forced Wiccan and Speed to have the most convoluted origin story of all time in Marvel Comics' history. I don't agree with what Byrne did to Wanda and Vision when he tried to get rid of the babies, but I get why he thought her giving birth the way she did was ludicrous. What I find highly offensive is that Marvel turned something as benign and innocent as Wanda and Vision wanting to have a family into a sick, twisted and perverted saga that has destroyed a whole bunch of reputations and lives.

That's why I'm sort of hoping against almost all odds that Wanda gets pregnant through artificial insemination in WandaVision. Use Tony Stark's sperm to give life to the boys. That would both be funny, practical and realistic. One of the things I like best about the MCU is that it takes really outlandish comic book stories and GROUNDS them in the real world. I think it would be idiotic if Dr. Strange shows up at a hospital as an OB-GYN and helps delivers the boys. I hope Marvel doesn't ALWAYS use magic to explain things in WandaVision because that would be lazy writing in my opinion.

I would prefer it was revealed that the Vision has synthetic sperm as his body replicates like a human body

[GenericUsername]

It would fall in line with past depictions of Vision as a synthetic human with all the organs of a human. That was confirmed by Hank years and years ago now.