Wanda Maximoff: Scarlet Witch Appreciation 2020

[GenericUsername]

To be fair, a lot of heroes get "mind-controlled". Writers and artists love that trope. I just think they go overboard with this too often with Wanda. It is a great failure to her character. That's why I'm counting on Wandavision to change perceptions of her. If she becomes funny and sympathetic, a lot of problematic issues with her character can be forgiven. As previous posters have stated, Wanda in the comics is often too emo and does act like a stick in the mud sometimes. Even Pietro is more fun-loving than she is. I think the movies WILL definitely influence Wanda and Vision in the books, especially now that Feige is in charge of the comics as well. That is if Wandavision is successful as Iron Man, Captain America: The Winter Soldier, and Thor: Ragnarok. I think it's easier to change Wanda's personality in the comics than Thor and Loki. And I really hope they do.

But that makes it an overused trope, which makes it bad. Wanda needs a break from the mind control.

[Albert1981]

But that makes it an overused trope, which makes it bad. Wanda needs a break from the mind control.

It's so lazy on Marvel Comics' part to keep using that trope. But I thought you LOVED melodrama and clichés in your comic books! I can't wait until ANOTHER secret organization that's pulling the strings from behind the scenes is revealed to be behind Wanda's bad actions in a future storyline! Because I love clichés too.

All kidding aside, this mind control stuff seriously makes it look like Wanda is REALLY easy to be manipulated. And takes away any responsibility for her actions (good or bad). Dr. Doom and Dr. Strange are both powerful magicians like Wanda. But I don't recall either of them being "mind-controlled". Because it's implied that they are mentally strong enough to fight off such manipulation like that, while Wanda is not. I find that weird and inconsistent. I just think writers and artists in comic books don't know what to do with Wanda personality and story wise. A lot of the other Avengers, including Vision, seem to have done better in the books in more recent years while Wanda's character growth has stalled. I find that really sad. She's fully capable of more development. The movies and television shows are clearly demonstrating this.

[Albert1981]

I would love to see more of the Vision cooking, with the idea that by the end of the series, he would be able to actually cook something

I think the show could make a running gag on how the family HATES eating Vision's cooking and continues to chuck them in the garbage when he isn't looking. But you're right, after numerous tries, he finally gets it right and Wanda and the kids happily approve at the end.

[GenericUsername]

It's so lazy on Marvel Comics' part to keep using that trope. But I thought you LOVED melodrama and clichés in your comic books! I can't wait until ANOTHER secret organization that's pulling the strings from behind the scenes is revealed to be behind Wanda's bad actions in a future storyline! Because I love clichés too.

All kidding aside, this mind control stuff seriously makes it look like Wanda is REALLY easy to be manipulated. And takes away any responsibility for her actions (good or bad). Dr. Doom and Dr. Strange are both powerful magicians like Wanda. But I don't recall either of them being "mind-controlled". Because it's implied that they are mentally strong enough to fight off such manipulation like that, while Wanda is not. I find that weird and inconsistent. I just think writers and artists in comic books don't know what to do with Wanda personality and story wise. A lot of the other Avengers, including Vision, seem to have done better in the books in more recent years while Wanda's character growth has stalled. I find that really sad. She's fully capable of more development. The movies and television shows are clearly demonstrating this.

At least it's in a different universe, but I think it doesn't matter overall. The character needs some positive moments to balance out the overwhelming bad.

[Steel Inquisitor]

It's so lazy on Marvel Comics' part to keep using that trope. But I thought you LOVED melodrama and clichés in your comic books! I can't wait until ANOTHER secret organization that's pulling the strings from behind the scenes is revealed to be behind Wanda's bad actions in a future storyline! Because I love clichés too.

There wasn't a first, the original was Cthon (Elder God) and the second was Doom.

All kidding aside, this mind control stuff seriously makes it look like Wanda is REALLY easy to be manipulated. And takes away any responsibility for her actions (good or bad). Dr. Doom and Dr. Strange are both powerful magicians like Wanda. But I don't recall either of them being "mind-controlled". Because it's implied that they are mentally strong enough to fight off such manipulation like that, while Wanda is not. I find that weird and inconsistent. I just think writers and artists in comic books don't know what to do with Wanda personality and story wise. A lot of the other Avengers, including Vision, seem to have done better in the books in more recent years while Wanda's character growth has stalled. I find that really sad. She's fully capable of more development. The movies and television shows are clearly demonstrating this.

This wasn't mind control, it was about being overwhelmed by a cosmic force and being manipulated by people like Doom and Quicksilver when she was vulnerable. I agree about the optics of it, that's why Phoenix was bad for Jean, it made her look like she couldn't control the power and it consumed her. Wanda's not special with this, she's just had big events with them - during "Ends of the Earth" an entire roster of Avengers (Cap, Iron Man, Hawkwye) were mind controlled by Doc Ock to stop Spider-man.

Besides, mind control is a reoccurring event in super-hero comics - look at any story with Purple Man in it.

[leokearon]

At least it's in a different universe, but I think it doesn't matter overall. The character needs some positive moments to balance out the overwhelming bad.

Agreed. She really needs to increase her mental and mystical defences

[GenericUsername]

There wasn't a first, the original was Cthon (Elder God) and the second was Doom.



This wasn't mind control, it was about being overwhelmed by a cosmic force and being manipulated by people like Doom and Quicksilver when she was vulnerable. I agree about the optics of it, that's why Phoenix was bad for Jean, it made her look like she couldn't control the power and it consumed her. Wanda's not special with this, she's just had big events with them - during "Ends of the Earth" an entire roster of Avengers (Cap, Iron Man, Hawkwye) were mind controlled by Doc Ock to stop Spider-man.

Besides, mind control is a reoccurring event in super-hero comics - look at any story with Purple Man in it.

Jean at least got to control the Phoenix for a time before going Dark. We have to believe in retrospect that Wanda controlled the Life Force for some unknown time. Depending on when it was that she went to Doctor Doom. And of course any of that between that time and Disassembled had zero story because of it being a retcon.

Purple Man is gross. Horribly gross. Mind control needs a bit of a break.

[Sutekh]

It's so lazy on Marvel Comics' part to keep using that trope. But I thought you LOVED melodrama and clichés in your comic books! I can't wait until ANOTHER secret organization that's pulling the strings from behind the scenes is revealed to be behind Wanda's bad actions in a future storyline! Because I love clichés too.

It was Chthon all the time! She was born at a time of mystical convergence, close enough to Chthon's prison under Mt. Wundagore that he managed to reach out and implant a tiny seed of his darkness within her, and influenced her over the years to develop her magical talent (under Agatha Harkness' tutelage) so that the more she used her Chthon-tainted power outside of his prison, the more it weakened the wards and allowed him to finally break free and fully manifest outside of Wundagore!

The 'Life Force' thing was just a dodge, that Doom went along with because it was really the power of Chthon he was seizing (and it made even him go a little dodge-y, he didn't actually *mean* to kill Cassie Lang, but the demon-god has a wicked temper and it's hard to keep it controlled the way Wanda has for decades).

(And that makes it all the more ironic/convenient that he uses the power of a Chthon-possessed Wanda to later resurrect Cassie!)

Bam, retcon 27.

[MaximoffTrash]

It was Chthon all the time! She was born at a time of mystical convergence, close enough to Chthon's prison under Mt. Wundagore that he managed to reach out and implant a tiny seed of his darkness within her, and influenced her over the years to develop her magical talent (under Agatha Harkness' tutelage) so that the more she used her Chthon-tainted power outside of his prison, the more it weakened the wards and allowed him to finally break free and fully manifest outside of Wundagore!

The 'Life Force' thing was just a dodge, that Doom went along with because it was really the power of Chthon he was seizing (and it made even him go a little dodge-y, he didn't actually *mean* to kill Cassie Lang, but the demon-god has a wicked temper and it's hard to keep it controlled the way Wanda has for decades).

(And that makes it all the more ironic/convenient that he uses the power of a Chthon-possessed Wanda to later resurrect Cassie!)

Bam, retcon 27.

I actually wouldn't mind as long as they give a dedicated story to build up more upon that lore.
I always feel like Chthon is a good nemesis for Wanda, but what is the good for a villain that the hero cannot struggle against or fight?
Which is the main problem I have with how Marvel used Chthon in past cases, it's always a convenient way to take her out of the picture, rather than creating conflict for Wanda herself.
And I will always hold the opinion having a literally Elder God stalking you around storywise is pretty engaging, and scary to the character in the story.
Why Wanda doesn't give too much thought about that is gonna be a mystery for me.

[Albert1981]

There wasn't a first, the original was Cthon (Elder God) and the second was Doom.



This wasn't mind control, it was about being overwhelmed by a cosmic force and being manipulated by people like Doom and Quicksilver when she was vulnerable. I agree about the optics of it, that's why Phoenix was bad for Jean, it made her look like she couldn't control the power and it consumed her. Wanda's not special with this, she's just had big events with them - during "Ends of the Earth" an entire roster of Avengers (Cap, Iron Man, Hawkwye) were mind controlled by Doc Ock to stop Spider-man.

Besides, mind control is a reoccurring event in super-hero comics - look at any story with Purple Man in it.

I apologize for being sloppy with my humor. I was just lumping Wanda with clichés about "people behind the scenes" manipulating characters and events for fun. It's been used so often so I was just joking about how Wanda can be part of that. I don't really know what's happened with Wanda in the past twenty years. I didn't know she was manipulated by Doom. And I didn't know Cassie Lang has become a superhero in recent years. I'm well aware mind control happens a lot in superhero comics. I was just teasing the fact that that theme has been used so often it's getting a little stale.

[Albert1981]

It was Chthon all the time! She was born at a time of mystical convergence, close enough to Chthon's prison under Mt. Wundagore that he managed to reach out and implant a tiny seed of his darkness within her, and influenced her over the years to develop her magical talent (under Agatha Harkness' tutelage) so that the more she used her Chthon-tainted power outside of his prison, the more it weakened the wards and allowed him to finally break free and fully manifest outside of Wundagore!

The 'Life Force' thing was just a dodge, that Doom went along with because it was really the power of Chthon he was seizing (and it made even him go a little dodge-y, he didn't actually *mean* to kill Cassie Lang, but the demon-god has a wicked temper and it's hard to keep it controlled the way Wanda has for decades).

(And that makes it all the more ironic/convenient that he uses the power of a Chthon-possessed Wanda to later resurrect Cassie!)

Bam, retcon 27.

Doom murdered Cassie Lang?! Wow! That's really harsh, even for his character (which I love by the way). I gotta start boning up on my comics after this Covid-19 crisis is over.

I applaud the posters here who stuck with these books for SO long. That's incredible! I got out of reading comics decades ago because of all the constant retcons and reboots. I just literally could not keep up with everyone's stories anymore. Don't get me wrong, I WANT to get back to reading comics, but I'm never shocked by anything that happens because if someone dies, or loses a limb, or is revealed to be someone's real father, I know within a few years, it'll all be different again. It's hard to care about what happens when you know it'll just be a dream or an implanted memory or a simulation or someone will travel through time or whatever to "fix" it again. Have the comics stopped doing that? I mean, I wouldn't be shocked if Wanda used the tired plot device of time travel again to "correct" something in the past and as a result later finds out that Magneto is actually her son. That would be retcon 45.

[leokearon]

It was Chthon all the time! She was born at a time of mystical convergence, close enough to Chthon's prison under Mt. Wundagore that he managed to reach out and implant a tiny seed of his darkness within her, and influenced her over the years to develop her magical talent (under Agatha Harkness' tutelage) so that the more she used her Chthon-tainted power outside of his prison, the more it weakened the wards and allowed him to finally break free and fully manifest outside of Wundagore!

The 'Life Force' thing was just a dodge, that Doom went along with because it was really the power of Chthon he was seizing (and it made even him go a little dodge-y, he didn't actually *mean* to kill Cassie Lang, but the demon-god has a wicked temper and it's hard to keep it controlled the way Wanda has for decades).

(And that makes it all the more ironic/convenient that he uses the power of a Chthon-possessed Wanda to later resurrect Cassie!)

Bam, retcon 27.

I would love for it to be revealed that Chthon was behind everything since Disassembled (after all the actual Avengers part of Disassembled is called Chaos) in order to weaken Earth's heroes and strength his own power so he could escape.

[Sutekh]

I would love for it to be revealed that Chthon was behind everything since Disassembled (after all the actual Avengers part of Disassembled is called Chaos) in order to weaken Earth's heroes and strength his own power so he could escape.

It would be a neat way to build up Chthon as a serious foe. He's supposed to be one of the eldest demon-god-thingies, on a level with Thor's mom, Gaea, fellow elder-demon-god-thingie Set, or pantheon heads like Odin or Zeus, but has generally been confined and limited to working through intermediaries, like a possessed Modred the Mystic, or a possessed Wanda.

I think it could also elevate Wanda a bit, to have a foe that's close to Galactus or Mephisto-class, more than a match for even big-hitter Avengers like Thor, sort of the 'Dormammu' to her 'Dr. Strange.' Even if she's not going to get into a fist-fight with him, he could still send cultists, lesser demons or possessed flunkies to give her trouble, and she might be integral to breaking up various rites meant to draw power from him (and so increase his power in the world, and hasten his eventual return, and perhaps weaken the users to make them more susceptible to his influence?). That would be neat. Lesser mystical foes start using an invocation called 'Clutches of Chthon' to cause a cage of stone bars / pillars prisons to rise up and possibly begin closing in and crushing enemies, drawing power from him to fuel the invocation (the way Strange used to with the Winds of Watoomb or Crimson Bands of Cytorrak), but the hidden cost is that the more you draw his power into yourself, the more he's slithering inside you...

(All sorts of evil entities could fuel invocations, that we'd never see someone like Dr. Strange using, but evil spellcasters could call upon the Dread Gaze of Dormammu or the Serpents of Set or the Tinders of Tolomaq or the Dagger of D'Spayre or Tiboro's Transport or the Lies of Loki or conjure the Hordes of Hela. Tons of options!)

[leokearon]

It would be a neat way to build up Chthon as a serious foe. He's supposed to be one of the eldest demon-god-thingies, on a level with Thor's mom, Gaea, fellow elder-demon-god-thingie Set, or pantheon heads like Odin or Zeus, but has generally been confined and limited to working through intermediaries, like a possessed Modred the Mystic, or a possessed Wanda.

I think it could also elevate Wanda a bit, to have a foe that's close to Galactus or Mephisto-class, more than a match for even big-hitter Avengers like Thor, sort of the 'Dormammu' to her 'Dr. Strange.' Even if she's not going to get into a fist-fight with him, he could still send cultists, lesser demons or possessed flunkies to give her trouble, and she might be integral to breaking up various rites meant to draw power from him (and so increase his power in the world, and hasten his eventual return, and perhaps weaken the users to make them more susceptible to his influence?). That would be neat. Lesser mystical foes start using an invocation called 'Clutches of Chthon' to cause a cage of stone bars / pillars prisons to rise up and possibly begin closing in and crushing enemies, drawing power from him to fuel the invocation (the way Strange used to with the Winds of Watoomb or Crimson Bands of Cytorrak), but the hidden cost is that the more you draw his power into yourself, the more he's slithering inside you...

(All sorts of evil entities could fuel invocations, that we'd never see someone like Dr. Strange using, but evil spellcasters could call upon the Dread Gaze of Dormammu or the Serpents of Set or the Tinders of Tolomaq or the Dagger of D'Spayre or Tiboro's Transport or the Lies of Loki or conjure the Hordes of Hela. Tons of options!)

It would also explain all the stupid events and hero vs hero fights; The Lord of Chaos was behind them all.

Also I like the idea of villains calling upon hell lords and elder goods for their spells

[MaximoffTrash]

It would be a neat way to build up Chthon as a serious foe. He's supposed to be one of the eldest demon-god-thingies, on a level with Thor's mom, Gaea, fellow elder-demon-god-thingie Set, or pantheon heads like Odin or Zeus, but has generally been confined and limited to working through intermediaries, like a possessed Modred the Mystic, or a possessed Wanda.

I think it could also elevate Wanda a bit, to have a foe that's close to Galactus or Mephisto-class, more than a match for even big-hitter Avengers like Thor, sort of the 'Dormammu' to her 'Dr. Strange.' Even if she's not going to get into a fist-fight with him, he could still send cultists, lesser demons or possessed flunkies to give her trouble, and she might be integral to breaking up various rites meant to draw power from him (and so increase his power in the world, and hasten his eventual return, and perhaps weaken the users to make them more susceptible to his influence?). That would be neat. Lesser mystical foes start using an invocation called 'Clutches of Chthon' to cause a cage of stone bars / pillars prisons to rise up and possibly begin closing in and crushing enemies, drawing power from him to fuel the invocation (the way Strange used to with the Winds of Watoomb or Crimson Bands of Cytorrak), but the hidden cost is that the more you draw his power into yourself, the more he's slithering inside you...

(All sorts of evil entities could fuel invocations, that we'd never see someone like Dr. Strange using, but evil spellcasters could call upon the Dread Gaze of Dormammu or the Serpents of Set or the Tinders of Tolomaq or the Dagger of D'Spayre or Tiboro's Transport or the Lies of Loki or conjure the Hordes of Hela. Tons of options!)

Well, I mean Cyttorak can be considered "evil" or at least indifferent to human lives, and Strange used the spells connected to the Octessence anyway.
I think spells are more like a means to an end, heroic magicians will be more careful with powers coming from certain deities but probably won't complete refuse to use them. I mean Wanda is using Chthonic power, Clea is using Dorm's or say the Faltine line of magic.
I think part of the intrigue with magic users is how they handle certain power sources.

As for Wanda Vs Chthon, the conflict is interesting in that Chthon wouldn't want Wanda dead the way Dorm want Stephen dead or defeated. She is of great value to his plan after all, Wanda is basically Chthon's OG plan going south.
Like how will Chthon handle this, persuasion/corruption, forced cooperation? Or go for the extreme, try to kill Wanda and find a replacement?(which he has, and can be explored furthur)