Wanda Maximoff: Scarlet Witch Appreciation 2020

[Albert1981]

yeah, it would have been very interesting

By the way, I was very sorry to hear of Dennis O'Neil's passing today. He was a really interesting and talented dude. I was just wondering, was he largely responsible for changing Batman into a more gritty character? Or did some other guys do that? I'm just curious because from I understand, the Batman before he started writing for him was pretty campy like that of the character in the 60s TV show.

[whitecrown]

I haven't watched the Marvel TV stuff because I heard it was pretty violent and adult-oriented. But maybe I should take a look. I heard Feige stayed away from Marvel TV because it was being run by Jeph Loeb, who he saw as a Perlmutter man. You know what's really interesting and funny though? Because of all this racial unrest and tensions afflicting the world at the current moment, a character who is NOT part of the MCU is gaining much prominence right now. And you mentioned him in your post: the Punisher. By watching and reading news reports, it appears that the law enforcement and military communities are HUGE fans of that character. So many of them wear his skull decal as a symbol of pride. And I think I can understand why. Agree with them or not, I think a lot of people in the law enforcement and military communities like a character who does NOT have any superpowers and who is deeply connected to the armed forces. And they like the fact that he fights for justice when the justice system fails victims of crime and terrorism (they also like to support a character who goes after terrorists, criminals and bullies in general when the laws of society don't permit this). I think if Disney and Marvel Studios are courageous and gutsy enough, they can bring the Punisher into the MCU in a way that allows stories involving his character to open up debates about crime and justice and racism in a manner that is totally different than what the mutant/human struggle can convey. And people pretty much everywhere would understand those debates because they would be grounded in realism, unlike the X-stuff. I just don't think they can do this in a "family-friendly" way. But the MCU seems likely to bring in characters like Daredevil and Wolverine, who sort of do what the Punisher does, so it MIGHT be possible. A Punisher film can be in the vein of a Black Panther movie with strong social themes. I actually think a lot of people would watch it, BUT I don't think Marvel has the cojones to do this. Disney's just TOO conservative a corporation.

Yeah, thanks for reminding me of Shuri. She's a pretty brainy character. And I definitely could be wrong about the Scarlet Witch series because I didn't read it. I just heard there was more than one Scarlet Witch, but I might very well be incorrect about that. A magical superteam might suit Wanda. She's clearly heading in that direction in the comics as well as the movies and shows. The Doom story sounds really compelling to me. Made me sympathetic to him for the first time ever. I guess you could say that his mother is the only woman he ever truly loved. Yeah, I hope Feige has a good explanation on why mutants should be persecuted. The hatred of them seems a bit irrational to me. The Scarlet Witch solo series is mentioned in one of Charles Murphy's articles on his Murphy's Multiverse website. It's the feature about the House of M. The issue in question is number 9, page 18 (and Quicksilver is in it). And here is the old video I was talking about in which Paul Bettany said acting in this show was a highlight of his career:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJReIqmzleA

A lot of people seem to think WandaVision is going to be dark and disturbing. I disagree. They brought in Randall Park, Kat Dennings, Teyonah Parris, Kathryn Hahn, Matt Shakman and Jac Schaeffer to participate in this series. Each of these individuals has a strong background in the comedic world. So it'll probably be more funny and weird than anything else.

Yeah, the Marvel TV shows can be pretty violent including Daredevil. I've never understood why law enforcement likes the Punisher because he's a vigilante and the whole reason he exists is because he feels that the police and law enforcement aren't doing their jobs properly to ensure justice. So he goes one step further to deliver vengeance. And the Punisher's creator said the same thing that it makes him uncomfortable when he hears cops wearing his symbol because the very existence of the Punisher is a repudiation of the police. I'm not sure if they have plans to bring Punisher in the movies because I've heard they do want to include Daredevil. Possibly in Spider-Man 3 or with She-Hulk.

The Darkhold storyline does show her leading a team of heroes so I wouldn't mind her on a mystical team alongside Doctor Strange. I loved his interactions with Iron Man and Spider-Man in Infinity War so I definitely can't wait to see him interact with Wanda. It would be interesting if the MCU adapts the story with his mother and includes Wanda as well alongside Doom and Strange. And yes, Doom probably only loved his mother because he certainly didn't end up loving Valeria, his childhood sweetheart. Disney definitely won't be adapting that storyline (Unthinkable). Well, I'm glad there's confirmation that they're drawing from Wanda's solo series in Doctor Strange 2. And thanks for the video where Paul Bettany said that!

Wasn't the whole reason that the Doctor Strange director left the sequel because he wasn't allowed to go as dark as he wanted? I would think that alone would let people know this film won't be super dark.

[Albert1981]

Yeah, the Marvel TV shows can be pretty violent including Daredevil. I've never understood why law enforcement likes the Punisher because he's a vigilante and the whole reason he exists is because he feels that the police and law enforcement aren't doing their jobs properly to ensure justice. So he goes one step further to deliver vengeance. And the Punisher's creator said the same thing that it makes him uncomfortable when he hears cops wearing his symbol because the very existence of the Punisher is a repudiation of the police. I'm not sure if they have plans to bring Punisher in the movies because I've heard they do want to include Daredevil. Possibly in Spider-Man 3 or with She-Hulk.

The Darkhold storyline does show her leading a team of heroes so I wouldn't mind her on a mystical team alongside Doctor Strange. I loved his interactions with Iron Man and Spider-Man in Infinity War so I definitely can't wait to see him interact with Wanda. It would be interesting if the MCU adapts the story with his mother and includes Wanda as well alongside Doom and Strange. And yes, Doom probably only loved his mother because he certainly didn't end up loving Valeria, his childhood sweetheart. Disney definitely won't be adapting that storyline (Unthinkable). Well, I'm glad there's confirmation that they're drawing from Wanda's solo series in Doctor Strange 2. And thanks for the video where Paul Bettany said that!

Wasn't the whole reason that the Doctor Strange director left the sequel because he wasn't allowed to go as dark as he wanted? I would think that alone would let people know this film won't be super dark.

It's no problem at all. I definitely don't think Frank Castle is joining the MCU. Maybe an Easter Egg or something but nothing more. But it is strange that vigilantes who are similar to him like Moon Knight and Ghost Rider ARE. Those characters don't have the political baggage Castle has though. But then again, are otherworldly demons bound by human laws when it comes to dudes like Ghost Rider? I don't know. I'm not sure if there will be enough Avengers left for Wanda to join with in a few years. I think a lot of them are leaving the MCU in the next couple of phases. I can see her hanging out with Captain Marvel, She-Hulk, and the Wasp (if Lilly sticks around). It will be weird to see her without Vision and Quicksilver at her side anymore, but maybe she'll hang out with Strange and Clea and his mystical gang from now on. It's funny how the Avengers are becoming more female-dominated after years of being heavily represented by men. I think Doom loving his mother will definitely make him sympathetic to many audiences. But as I was joking with GenericUsername, there's a HUGE chance the MCU's probably gonna dispense with his Romani Eastern European heritage and make him end up sounding like Tom Brady in two seconds flat. Probably after studying in college in the US for a few years. I kinda wish Thor: Ragnarok happened BEFORE the Age of Ultron. If Thor's personality was reflected in the Vision after Ragnarok, I think Vision would not have been a stoic and regal dude. He would have become a clown like Stark, Banner, Ultron and post-Ragnarok Thor. And I think Wanda would have liked him even more because pretty much all chicks love a great sense of humor. I still don't understand why Ultron became a quip machine and Vision didn't.

And it's WandaVision that's drawing from the Scarlet Witch's solo series, NOT Doctor Strange 2! I just wanted to clear that up. If Scott Derrickson left because of the fact that he wanted Dr Strange to go darker than what Feige would have liked, I wouldn't be too upset. But if he left because Feige wanted to jam in story elements NOT directly related to the characters in Derrickson's movie, I think he would have every right to be upset and I would agree with him. As much as I like Wanda, I've always stated that a Strange movie should basically be about Strange and his supporting cast. Strange fans have waited DECADES just like Wanda fans have to see his stories come to life on the big screen. I think they deserve to have his lore and supporting cast focused on when it comes to his films. I think Strange's movie is already making WandaVision less of a Wanda show and more of a Strange thing. Especially if Chthon is not involved. I'm pretty sure a lot of Wanda fans might have some reservations about that. And I happen to LOVE Dr Strange! I don't mind WandaVision and Dr Strange 2 connecting, but I want them each to be able to stand on their own as if they WEREN'T connected, you know? But I think it's more likely that Derrickson wanted to go darker because he's still an executive producer for the Multiverse of Madness and he's praised WandaVision publicly. And if Bettany is proud of WandaVision, I just can't see it being bad. He really likes Jac Schaeffer too!

[Cruelrain]

Dr Strange will have another movie so it can be a Trilogy, that's how Marvel been doing it, it will sound mean but i hope she gets a good screentime and good moments in that movie the same way Black widow or Hulk did in other movies, this could easily be her last movie so i want her to shine.

This is just my IMO since i really don't care much about Dr Strange but i understand how his fans would feel.

I don't think there's nothing wrong in wanting your character to shine in a movie that she's not protagonist, we won't be the last fandom in hoping for that.

[leokearon]

But some of the fans I've seen have basically stated that this series will be Marvel's version of Deliverance, the Shining and Sophie's Choice all rolled into one. Something so fucked up, terrifying and tragic (which is sort of what happened in the comic books) that it will end up being a macabre psychological thriller. Here's my question, why would they WANT that to happen in this series? Those sentiments definitely reveal A LOT about the people expressing them. I think the show might be a little bit scary, but I think it will sort of be funny at the same time when that happens. I think we might even see Mephisto, Nightmare or Chthon showing up and cracking jokes like Ultron did. Like you said earlier, these MCU projects should be fun and NOT sick.

I wasn't keen on wise-cracking Ultron to be honest.

I think the main reason is that some people (and higher ups) believe that comics and the movies/shows based off them have to be dark and gritty to be cool and successful.

[leokearon]

By the way, I was very sorry to hear of Dennis O'Neil's passing today. He was a really interesting and talented dude. I was just wondering, was he largely responsible for changing Batman into a more gritty character? Or did some other guys do that? I'm just curious because from I understand, the Batman before he started writing for him was pretty campy like that of the character in the 60s TV show.

He's partly responsible; Julius Schwartz got the ball rolling in the early 60's with his new direction, where he started to make Batman stoires more serious after the insanity of the 50's. However when the 60's show came out, the comics decided to copy the style of the show; then when the show ended the tone changed back to the New Direction and that's where Denny and Neil come in.

Also being a huge TF fan, Denny will always be remembered as the man who gave the world Optimus Prime.

[leokearon]

I don't think there's nothing wrong in wanting your character to shine in a movie that she's not protagonist, we won't be the last fandom in hoping for that.

There isn't, we want Wanda to be portrayed well in the same way Dr. Strange fans want their characters to be portrayed well. Also it would be beneficial for Marvel as it could lead to Strange fans becoming Wanda fans and visa versa; which has always been the main ploy behind team-ups

[Albert1981]

Dr Strange will have another movie so it can be a Trilogy, that's how Marvel been doing it, it will sound mean but i hope she gets a good screentime and good moments in that movie the same way Black widow or Hulk did in other movies, this could easily be her last movie so i want her to shine.

This is just my IMO since i really don't care much about Dr Strange but i understand how his fans would feel.

I don't think there's nothing wrong in wanting your character to shine in a movie that she's not protagonist, we won't be the last fandom in hoping for that.

I have to admit I'm sort of a total hypocrite on this matter. I SHARE your view that Wanda should get as much screen time as possible in Dr. Strange 2. And I want her chance to shine in the MOVIES, as opposed to just television shows before she leaves the MCU. And this will be her last opportunity to sort of co-star in an MCU film in my opinion. But the other part of me wants to see Dr. Strange fans get fulfilment out of his adventures on screen as well. They certainly deserve that. I have lots of confidence MCU will blend the two together seamlessly. But I only became concerned when news came out that Derrickson left the project so deep into the making of the Multiverse of Madness. It's NEVER a good thing when directors leave projects because of "creative differences". Creative differences prevented Ant-Man, the Incredible Hulk, Thor: The Dark World and the Age of Ultron from achieving their full potential. The Justice League didn't achieve its full potential either because of the constant bickering between Warner Brothers executives, Chris Terrio, Geoff Johns and Josh Whedon over rewrites of the script and Warner Brothers executives' disagreements with Zack Snyder over the direction of the film caused major problems too. I'm just saying that the Multiverse of Madness was shaping up to be a really "troubled production" and that absolutely worried me when it came to Wanda's role in it.

And for Derrickson to leave just one year before the movie was to be released looked like a REALLY bad sign to me. There were rumors which claimed that Derrickson and Feige had a huge falling out over the role of the Scarlet Witch in Dr. Strange 2:

"Aside from Derrickson's bad attitude and refusal to hit deadlines, the straw that broke the camel’s back was Scarlett Witch. Feige has huge plans for the character, and Wandavision is setting them all up. Feige sees her as the main villain of the picture and thinks her arc is the most important. Derrickson really wanted Nightmare to be the driving force and to lean into the horror he was wreaking on Strange’s life. One heated argument ended with Derrickson yelling “why don’t you just call the movie Scarlett Witch then!” And hanging up on Feige."

Another rumor was that since Marvel Studios allegedly recently gained full rights to Namor, Feige wanted last-minute script revisions to include Namor in Dr. Strange 2. Derrickson wanted more time, but he wasn't given any so he left.

Logically speaking, I don't think either of these rumors are true. It makes no sense for Wanda to become a villain AGAIN, and I don't think Marvel Studios has acquired the rights to Namor. I'm just saying there was clearly some dysfunction going on behind the scenes, and that WOULD have damaged the Multiverse of Madness. I think if Dr. Strange 2 was released next year, odds are it would have been a hot mess. However, even though this pandemic is absolutely horrible and I wish it never had happened, it might have benefitted Dr. Strange 2 by accident. It's given Raimi MUCH more time to do his thing and Derrickson even said this delay will improve Dr. Strange 2. So my worries have been reduced dramatically. I would hate for Wanda to squander her probable last film appearance as a movie co-star in an overstuffed and disorganized picture because Marvel Studios was fighting with its writers and directors. If such an important movie like this one bombs because of creative infighting, it would be disastrous for Wanda and Marvel as a whole. Thankfully, Derrickson is still an executive producer on the movie, so we should probably see a pretty good film that's true to his original vision.

[Albert1981]

I wasn't keen on wise-cracking Ultron to be honest.

I think the main reason is that some people (and higher ups) believe that comics and the movies/shows based off them have to be dark and gritty to be cool and successful.

I think those people are dumb. Superhero movies that go dark and gritty often fail to connect with wider audiences. With the notable exceptions of Joker and the Dark Knight trilogy, I don't think non-Batman superhero films succeeded in this manner. I mean Marvel TV's ratings plummeted I think largely because of its adult content (with the notable exception of Daredevil from what I hear).

I'm actually surprised to hear you didn't like a quippy Ultron! I had assumed you would be fully supportive of villains having a sense of humor just like the heroes do in the MCU.

[Albert1981]

There isn't, we want Wanda to be portrayed well in the same way Dr. Strange fans want their characters to be portrayed well. Also it would be beneficial for Marvel as it could lead to Strange fans becoming Wanda fans and visa versa; which has always been the main ploy behind team-ups

I think there could be a LOT to be gained with synergy between the two franchises. You could very well be right on that front. But judging from the posters on this thread, it's pretty clear that Chthon is a favorite here to be the main "villain" in WandaVision. But I think that might not actually happen because villains from the Dr. Strange franchise could be imposing themselves into Wanda's narrative, you know? We love great origin stories. Vision got his in Age of Ultron and his conversation with Ultron at the end of that movie was a clear highlight for his character. I want Wanda to have her origins explored in her own series like Vision did, but that may not occur if Mephisto and/or Nightmare show up. There's only so much time in even a six-hour show, and if they gloss over Wanda's relationship with Chthon, we'll never get a proper origin story for Wanda anywhere else. That's my biggest fear.

[Albert1981]

He's partly responsible; Julius Schwartz got the ball rolling in the early 60's with his new direction, where he started to make Batman stoires more serious after the insanity of the 50's. However when the 60's show came out, the comics decided to copy the style of the show; then when the show ended the tone changed back to the New Direction and that's where Denny and Neil come in.

Also being a huge TF fan, Denny will always be remembered as the man who gave the world Optimus Prime.

You're kidding! I LOVE Optimus Prime. He's one of my all-time favorite characters. In that case, Denny played a huge part in my youth and I didn't even know it. I can't believe that Batman stories were insane in the 50s. I just can't picture that dude being anything but serious and "damaged". I do think the 60s show WAS really campy. The Joker from that era is NOTHING like the Joker of this one. Extreme grittiness and extreme campiness are not ideal. I think Batman could exist somewhere in the middle. But it appears the new DC films are making him very serious. I don't think they've been too successful adopting that approach (and from what I hear, Ben Affleck did a pretty good job despite the material he was given to work with).

[leokearon]

I think those people are dumb. Superhero movies that go dark and gritty often fail to connect with wider audiences. With the notable exceptions of Joker and the Dark Knight trilogy, I don't think non-Batman superhero films succeeded in this manner. I mean Marvel TV's ratings plummeted I think largely because of its adult content (with the notable exception of Daredevil from what I hear).

I'm actually surprised to hear you didn't like a quippy Ultron! I had assumed you would be fully supportive of villains having a sense of humor just like the heroes do in the MCU.

They aren't dumb more misguided and it started with people getting the wrong messages about why the likes of Dark Knight Returns and Watchmen were successes.

I'm a big Ultron fan, so I was hoping for something closer to the comics, being a murderous killer robot with a Jack O'Lantern head, not some robot making Bondesque one-liners

[leokearon]

I think there could be a LOT to be gained with synergy between the two franchises. You could very well be right on that front. But judging from the posters on this thread, it's pretty clear that Chthon is a favorite here to be the main "villain" in WandaVision. But I think that might not actually happen because villains from the Dr. Strange franchise could be imposing themselves into Wanda's narrative, you know? We love great origin stories. Vision got his in Age of Ultron and his conversation with Ultron at the end of that movie was a clear highlight for his character. I want Wanda to have her origins explored in her own series like Vision did, but that may not occur if Mephisto and/or Nightmare show up. There's only so much time in even a six-hour show, and if they gloss over Wanda's relationship with Chthon, we'll never get a proper origin story for Wanda anywhere else. That's my biggest fear.

I would use the Chthon connection to be the reason why Nightmare is targeting her in the first place and then expand on that in a later show or movie, a version of Yesterday Quest but with either Vision or Strange instead of Pietro

[leokearon]

I have to admit I'm sort of a total hypocrite on this matter. I SHARE your view that Wanda should get as much screen time as possible in Dr. Strange 2. And I want her chance to shine in the MOVIES, as opposed to just television shows before she leaves the MCU. And this will be her last opportunity to sort of co-star in an MCU film in my opinion. But the other part of me wants to see Dr. Strange fans get fulfilment out of his adventures on screen as well. They certainly deserve that. I have lots of confidence MCU will blend the two together seamlessly. But I only became concerned when news came out that Derrickson left the project so deep into the making of the Multiverse of Madness. It's NEVER a good thing when directors leave projects because of "creative differences". Creative differences prevented Ant-Man, the Incredible Hulk, Thor: The Dark World and the Age of Ultron from achieving their full potential. The Justice League didn't achieve its full potential either because of the constant bickering between Warner Brothers executives, Chris Terrio, Geoff Johns and Josh Whedon over rewrites of the script and Warner Brothers executives' disagreements with Zack Snyder over the direction of the film caused major problems too. I'm just saying that the Multiverse of Madness was shaping up to be a really "troubled production" and that absolutely worried me when it came to Wanda's role in it.

And for Derrickson to leave just one year before the movie was to be released looked like a REALLY bad sign to me. There were rumors which claimed that Derrickson and Feige had a huge falling out over the role of the Scarlet Witch in Dr. Strange 2:

"Aside from Derrickson's bad attitude and refusal to hit deadlines, the straw that broke the camel’s back was Scarlett Witch. Feige has huge plans for the character, and Wandavision is setting them all up. Feige sees her as the main villain of the picture and thinks her arc is the most important. Derrickson really wanted Nightmare to be the driving force and to lean into the horror he was wreaking on Strange’s life. One heated argument ended with Derrickson yelling “why don’t you just call the movie Scarlett Witch then!” And hanging up on Feige."

Another rumor was that since Marvel Studios allegedly recently gained full rights to Namor, Feige wanted last-minute script revisions to include Namor in Dr. Strange 2. Derrickson wanted more time, but he wasn't given any so he left.

Logically speaking, I don't think either of these rumors are true. It makes no sense for Wanda to become a villain AGAIN, and I don't think Marvel Studios has acquired the rights to Namor. I'm just saying there was clearly some dysfunction going on behind the scenes, and that WOULD have damaged the Multiverse of Madness. I think if Dr. Strange 2 was released next year, odds are it would have been a hot mess. However, even though this pandemic is absolutely horrible and I wish it never had happened, it might have benefitted Dr. Strange 2 by accident. It's given Raimi MUCH more time to do his thing and Derrickson even said this delay will improve Dr. Strange 2. So my worries have been reduced dramatically. I would hate for Wanda to squander her probable last film appearance as a movie co-star in an overstuffed and disorganized picture because Marvel Studios was fighting with its writers and directors. If such an important movie like this one bombs because of creative infighting, it would be disastrous for Wanda and Marvel as a whole. Thankfully, Derrickson is still an executive producer on the movie, so we should probably see a pretty good film that's true to his original vision.

Yeah, why would you want to make Wanda the villain again after the work done to make her a popular heroine. Smells more like someone trying to make Wanda the scapegoat again

[Albert1981]

They aren't dumb more misguided and it started with people getting the wrong messages about why the likes of Dark Knight Returns and Watchmen were successes.

I'm a big Ultron fan, so I was hoping for something closer to the comics, being a murderous killer robot with a Jack O'Lantern head, not some robot making Bondesque one-liners

Yeah, I apologize. Calling them dumb was pretty harsh. Misguided is a great word to describe these folks.

I'm a big Ultron fan too. I wish they would have better conveyed his simultaneous hatred for humanity and his desire to emulate it more in Age of Ultron, but it is what it is. I am surprised you didn't like the humor in that film. I can't picture you NOT laughing here:

Wanda: "Is that why you've come? To end the Avengers?"
Ultron: "I've come to save the world, but also... yeah."