Vixen Appreciation 2020

[LordAllMIghty]

Why would Vixen ever mimic the abilities of any other animal if she could just be Krypto all the time? Or a dragon? And how would she ever be in danger again if she could just copy the powers of whatever deus ex machina fantasy creature a writer could dream up?

People calling for her to expand her power set really need to think this through.

Yes, cause Superman, Wonder Woman, Supergitl, Power Girl have never lost a fight.

Kyrpto's powers doesn't make her unbeatable...it open up more avenue for her to use in a fight. Her ability to swich powers makes her a valuable assist to any team. Hell, Martian Manhunter has every major ability and he still gets defeated.

Not trying to be mean just pointing out the double standards. In a universe where people can move planets, Vixen expanding her range is not a bad thing...

[HandofPrometheus]

without giving anything away, Vixen doesn't need mythological beasts or alien creatures (unless she's on an alien world). She's plenty powerful enough to go toe-to-toe with Superman or Wonder Woman right now.

folks just need to think through what her power actually is and what's available to her.

YESSSS! Finally, a writer who knows!

[lemonpeace]

Nah, since Krypto is on Earth and has powers, and Vixen is mimicking animal powers on Earth, there's no reason why she can't mimic Krypto, just like she can mimic Gorilla Grodd, and has done, in canon, when she teamed up with Flash to defeat Grodd way back in Flash #45-47.

How come no one's trying to slap magical restrictions on Zatanna, Dr. Strange, Constantine or Doctor Fate? (rhetorical question).

oh that's easy, I think her mimicking Gorilla's powers was bad writing. it wasn't a clever idea imo just like her copying the Justice League's due to tapping into "human abilities", which was also canon, and just like that Justice League power steal I think that's something that should be abandoned in the past.

the Gorilla's of Gorilla city aren't naturally occurring, their powers are essentially the same as a metahuman (they're just gorillas who are force users like the Flash after all) and I don't think Vixen needs to be cribbing whole superpowers just because the being with the superpower in question is an kinda sorta an animal.

I would bar her from pulling krypto because he simply isn't native to earth, if she's on Krypton then sure she can pull his physiology but krypton had a red sun, so you wouldn't have the same powers you're looking for. Vixen's powers are the ability to use the abilities of animals via magical means, there are creative ways to use and play with that without using it as a roundabout way to give her grab-bag superpowers. because once we start playing fast and loose with things like Kyypto's Kryptonian powers and Gorilla Grodd's telepathy that opens up a pandora's box of all kinds of different superpowers from made-up "animals" that exist in the DC universe. Like she shouldn't be able to have complete control of the emotional spectrum just because one of the emotion entities happens to be on earth, you know? (obvious hyperbole being obvious)

in the same spirit of what Blacula said earlier, we shouldn't be putting her in a situation narratively where if she can just become some ultra powerful made-up animal at almost anytime because (like he said) then why would she ever be a regular run of the mill animal? I think it's a reasonable restriction to say "no she can't just copy Gorilla Grodd and become Professor X" or "no she can't copy krypto and turn into superman" because at that point she's not creatively using her own abilities, she's just behaving like some other superhero; and she doesn't need to so closely resemble some others character to be interesting.

Yes, cause Superman, Wonder Woman, Supergitl, Power Girl have never lost a fight.

Kyrpto's powers doesn't make her unbeatable...it open up more avenue for her to use in a fight. Her ability to swich powers makes valuable assist to any team. Hell, Martian Manhunter has every major ability and he still gets defeated.

Not trying to be mean just pointing out the double standards. In a universe where people can move planets, Vixen expanding her range is not a bad thing...

I don't think it's about expanding her power's range, it's going it in a way that is true to the spirit of her character. Blue Superman isn't still around because at it's core it was a change that didn't expand his character, it changed it. You can expand Vixen's powers to make her just as powerful as Superman or Wonder Woman, or Martian Manhunter creatively without her just taking on superpowers arbitrarily by becoming amazo by with animals in the background. she can tap into animals from other worlds, but there are rules, maybe she can take into magical Beast one day, and there should be rules or a cost for that too.

[LordAllMIghty]

without giving anything away, Vixen doesn't need mythological beasts or alien creatures (unless she's on an alien world). She's plenty powerful enough to go toe-to-toe with Superman or Wonder Woman right now.

folks just need to think through what her power actually is and what's available to her.

While I appreciate you saying that she doesn't possess the speed or strength to hang with Superman or Wonder Woman in a fight. Even when you add the abilities of Krypto she is still significantly weaker than them.

oh that's easy, I think her mimicking Gorilla's powers was bad writing.

No, that's logical thinking

it wasn't a clever idea imo just like her copying the Justice League's due to tapping into "human abilities", which was also canon,

Again, logical thinking as humans are also animals

and just like that Justice League power steal I think that's something that should be abandoned in the past.

I disagree. If humans are animals, than she should be able to mimic their abilities too. Now I do think there should be a limitation to this ability. Justice League already gave us the answer to this by having her drain the skill or ability from whoever she is mimicking.

Unlike, using the abilities like claws or a cat or the strength of a elephant who number in the thousands. When Vixen use the abilities of a single superhuman, like Firestorm, she forced to pull directly from that individual and not the Morphogenetic or Red. As its just one person with that ability and not a large group to pull from.

So if she tries to uses the powers of Superman, she has to be aware of his situation.

the Gorilla's of Gorilla city aren't naturally occurring, their powers are essentially the same as a metahuman (they're just gorillas who are force users like the Flash after all) and I don't think Vixen needs to be cribbing whole superpowers just because the being with the superpower in question is an kinda sorta an animal.

I'm not sure what you're saying here.

I would bar her from pulling krypto because he simply isn't native to earth,

That's never been a criteria for her powers or any Animal Master. AAMOF, in New52, Animal Man (another Animal Master) used the universal Morphogenetic field/Red to tap into the abilities of a Suneater to travel in subspace.

if she's on Krypton then sure she can pull his physiology but krypton had a red sun, so you wouldn't have the same powers you're looking for.

So you're saying her powers should be limited by whatever planet she on?

Vixen's powers are the ability to use the abilities of animals via magical means, there are creative ways to use and play with that without using it as a roundabout way to give her grab-bag superpowers.

Technically speaking, her abilities are a grab-bag of superpowers. She has super-strength, super-speed, healing, flight, invulnerability, telepathy etc...but on a limited basic

because once we start playing fast and loose with things like Kyypto's Kryptonian powers and Gorilla Grodd's telepathy that opens up a pandora's box of all kinds of different superpowers from made-up "animals" that exist in the DC universe.

There nothing wrong with that. It's the nature of her power.

in the same spirit of what Blacula said earlier, we shouldn't be putting her in a situation narratively where if she can just become some ultra powerful made-up animal at almost anytime because (like he said) then why would she ever be a regular run of the mill animal?

There no reason she cant do both. Seeing that Krypto can't breath under water, possess a healing factor or telepathy...there are plenty of reason why she should take on other abilities. All I'm saying is open up her options

I think it's a reasonable restriction to say "no she can't just copy Gorilla Grodd and become Professor X" or "no she can't copy krypto and turn into superman" because at that point she's not creatively using her own abilities, she's just behaving like some other superhero; and she doesn't need to so closely resemble some others character to be interesting.

Pretty sure nobody said that. What we're saying is that powers are wider than what's been shown. In the long run, Vixen's ability is to adapt to situations. Much like Martian Manhunter.

I don't think it's about expanding her power's range, it's going it in a way that is true to the spirit of her character. Blue Superman isn't still around because at it's core it was a change that didn't expand his character, it changed it. You can expand Vixen's powers to make her just as powerful as Superman or Wonder Woman, or Martian Manhunter

I'm sorry, I dont know any animal that can run at the speed of light, push the moon out of its orbit or take a nuke to the face. Not saying I want Vixen to do this either.

creatively without her just taking on superpowers arbitrarily by becoming amazo by with animals in the background. she can tap into animals from other worlds, but there are rules, maybe she can take into magical Beast one day, and there should be rules or a cost for that too.

I'm fine with rule. As long as their logical ones and not because you dont want her being stepping outside her box.

[Redjack]

While I appreciate you saying that she doesn't possess the speed or strength to hang with Superman or Wonder Woman in a fight. Even when you add the abilities of Krypto she is still significantly weaker than them.

Hm. All I will say is that my knowledge of the terrestrial animal kingdom might just be a little more comprehensive than yours.

Vixen can absolutely give both those characters a run, both in terms of strength AND invulnerability. But her limitations (every hero needs weaknesses) are different and significant. Piling on more and more power is never a way to make a character more interesting. Figuring out what their powers are and how they work is always the best path.

Vixen is a top tier tank and while no one should be able to outrun the Flash, in practical terms, there isn't a vehicle on land, in the air, or undersea that she can't outpace.

[OopsIdiditagain]

Hm. All I will say is that my knowledge of the terrestrial animal kingdom might just be a little more comprehensive than yours.

That's interesting, did you do a lot of reading on the animal kingdom before writing Vixen or is it just something you were always interested in?

[HandofPrometheus]

Hm. All I will say is that my knowledge of the terrestrial animal kingdom might just be a little more comprehensive than yours.

Vixen can absolutely give both those characters a run, both in terms of strength AND invulnerability. But her limitations (every hero needs weaknesses) are different and significant. Piling on more and more power is never a way to make a character more interesting. Figuring out what their powers are and how they work is always the best path.

Vixen is a top tier tank and while no one should be able to outrun the Flash, in practical terms, there isn't a vehicle on land, in the air, or undersea that she can't outpace.

I'm so glad you understand and can explain her powers very well. Excited to see your take on her!

[Redjack]

That's interesting, did you do a lot of reading on the animal kingdom before writing Vixen or is it just something you were always interested in?

Both, actually. This planet's animal kingdom is INSANELY more diverse than most people know. The current estimate is something around 15 million individual species on Earth of which humanity has only catalogued roughly 2 million.

that's not individuals in a species, that's the entire species.

Vixen has been shown not only to be able to access any and all of these at will but, unlike Animal Man, she has the ability to COMBINE several species abilities at once.

Trust me, if she ever wants to put Diana or Clark on the deck, she can absolutely do it. Would she win a sustained battle with one or both of them? Maybe not.

But also, maybe yes.

[LordAllMIghty]

Hm. All I will say is that my knowledge of the terrestrial animal kingdom might just be a little more comprehensive than yours.

As Vixen is one of my favorite characters, I actually have a very large stock pile of information on animal abilities. I've been known to have some pretty feisty debates in Vixen verse debates.

Vixen can absolutely give both those characters a run, both in terms of strength AND invulnerability.

You must be super-charging her like crazy with the power of the Red. Cause in the 30+ years she been in comics she has never done anything on Superman and Wonder Woman's level. Well, she did make 1/3 of a universe but that was under very special circumstances.

But her limitations (every hero needs weaknesses) are different and significant. Piling on more and more power is never a way to make a character more interesting. Figuring out what their powers are and how they work is always the best path.

That's what we're talking about. Her abilities are very wide and can easily lend themselves to more abilities than what she displayed in the past

Vixen is a top tier tank

She taken a hit from a mind-controlled Superman but I'm not sure if I would call her a top-tier tank. Though it was a impressive feat.

and while no one should be able to outrun the Flash, in practical terms, there isn't a vehicle on land, in the air, or undersea that she can't outpace.

As far as I've know, she has never broken the sound barrier (roughly 770 mph sea level). Now while some insects like the Australian Tiger Beetle (close to the speed of sound) and the Southern California dust mite (almost Mach 2) are extremely fast their not breaking Mach 7.

Now with that being said, she could easily amp the powers of whatever creature she mimicking by pulling power from the RED. Case in point, when she regenerated her entire body within minutes by using the healing powers of a Tapeworm. Given that her powers are magical, I really wouldn't be shocked to find out she can break he sound barrier.

Anyway, thanks for conversation.

[lemonpeace]

I don't care, I'll be the minority on this one, I'm always pulling for Vixen and Bronze Tiger. it just felt more true than her with John Stewart

[Stanlos]

Hm. All I will say is that my knowledge of the terrestrial animal kingdom might just be a little more comprehensive than yours.

Vixen can absolutely give both those characters a run, both in terms of strength AND invulnerability. But her limitations (every hero needs weaknesses) are different and significant. Piling on more and more power is never a way to make a character more interesting. Figuring out what their powers are and how they work is always the best path.

Vixen is a top tier tank and while no one should be able to outrun the Flash, in practical terms, there isn't a vehicle on land, in the air, or undersea that she can't outpace.

This is so great to hear! Celebrating a character's deal is ALWAYS the very best way to go!

[Stanlos]

I don't care, I'll be the minority on this one, I'm always pulling for Vixen and Bronze Tiger. it just felt more true than her with John Stewart

What's the status of Bronze Tiger these days? He and Connor Hawke and a number of other street level combatants were so well fleshed out before the bizarre decision making of Flashpoint and 52.

[HandofPrometheus]

I don't care, I'll be the minority on this one, I'm always pulling for Vixen and Bronze Tiger. it just felt more true than her with John Stewart

Ben and Mari are my second favorite couple.

[lemonpeace]

What's the status of Bronze Tiger these days? He and Connor Hawke and a number of other street level combatants were so well fleshed out before the bizarre decision making of Flashpoint and 52.

he exist but the likes of him and lady Shiva really got the short end of the stick in the post-Flashpoint landscape. Bad news they aren't nearly as fleshed out as they used to be and they were subject to some weird choices (Ben was a were-tiger and Shiva was a weird green glowing Mortal Kombat Kitana type character) before disappearing and coming back and being back to (relatively) how they usually operate with no explanation. he doesn't appear to have trained Cassandra Cain either. however, good news is that there was plenty room left their character history (again not really fleshed out so technically nothing much changed) that their pre-Flashpoint histories could still exist.

I appears the only person interested in using him is Tom King, since the last couple times he popped up were in Tom King Batman stories.

[LordAllMIghty]

I don't care, I'll be the minority on this one, I'm always pulling for Vixen and Bronze Tiger. it just felt more true than her with John Stewart

I'm always a John and Mari shipper but I will admit I like Mari and Ben too.

Sadly, in the new 52, I don't think Ben and Mari have met yet.