Vixen Appreciation 2020

[Sutekh]

Why would Vixen ever mimic the abilities of any other animal if she could just be Krypto all the time? Or a dragon? And how would she ever be in danger again if she could just copy the powers of whatever deus ex machina fantasy creature a writer could dream up?

People calling for her to expand her power set really need to think this through.

Agreed. If she's got the power to do anything a mythological or fantasy or alien critter can do, then she just has the power to do literally whatever the writer wants, with no limits. That's boring. If she sticks to real world animals there's a slim chance I could actually learn something cool about the world I live in while reading a comic book, and that's part of what I've always loved about comics (and science-fiction) in the first place. If all I wanted was a power fantasy, I could just make that up myself. Ooh, power to resurrect like a phoenix! Power to create tremors like an earthquake beast! Power to grant wishes like the golden fish! Power to fly in space like a space dragon! Boring. Particularly when a writer can just make crap up and claim it's some alien animal, the ultimate in lazy writing.

[Tzigone]

Then you're misunderstanding people. Having the ability to mimic an Adze or something =/= making her OP, it's giving her justification to fight more fantastical enemies and move into other genres. She's already a champion of Anansi, a mythical trickster, so it's not too far off for her to take up more magical story elements.

I don't think so. It's increasing her power, no matter how you slice it. I don't want more power increases. For anyone. Every character's thread has reasons and stories they claim could be told with it, but it still comes down to power increase/expansion.

If anything writing her character to use more African mythos in her superpowers could make Vixen's role as an African monarch more grounded. It's a chance for African mythology representation too.

Then I think we're just in different places. I'd have preferred the businesswoman/model fighting poachers (and other groups), per her original appearance. I'm not into mythology for my comic book heroes. Keep arguing for less of it for Diana. And wouldn't mind jettisoning the king thing for Arthur (seriously repetitive storylines with him losing the kingdom and some depressingly colonialist aspects to me of having an outsider (he's rarely raised in their culture) have to rule them and civilize them - since they keep going all bloodthirsty invader and discriminatory and so forth). Though she doesn't have Arthur's issues. Though I would like to ask when she became a monarch. Earlier she was a reverend's daughter and dictator's niece, right? Was this a COIE change or New 52 or something in the 90s/00s? I know the wiki said her father became president, so did her uncle became dictator overthrowing him? Or was he just muscle, not leader?

I really like learning how things happened in publishing order, rather than in-universe chronology, but don't know a good source for that.

I am learning what people like, though, so that's cool.

[MoneySpider]

Agreed. If she's got the power to do anything a mythological or fantasy or alien critter can do, then she just has the power to do literally whatever the writer wants, with no limits. That's boring. If she sticks to real world animals there's a slim chance I could actually learn something cool about the world I live in while reading a comic book, and that's part of what I've always loved about comics (and science-fiction) in the first place. If all I wanted was a power fantasy, I could just make that up myself. Ooh, power to resurrect like a phoenix! Power to create tremors like an earthquake beast! Power to grant wishes like the golden fish! Power to fly in space like a space dragon! Boring. Particularly when a writer can just make crap up and claim it's some alien animal, the ultimate in lazy writing.

You can say that about a LOT of comic book characters, though, if a writer wants him or her to win. Want Spawn to win? Come up with a new power out of the blue or use one of his already numerous powers to have him win. I watched a 40-minute YouTube video on all of Spawn's powers and you would think he has every power in existence.

Swamp Thing is so powerful he has control over all Earth plant life and alien plant life, if I'm not mistaken. As long as there is plant life anywhere in the universe, he can't be destroyed. He can even transfer his consciousness to any plant or tree or Earth and maybe even any alien tree or plant. Plus he just got a power up recently, like a month or two ago.

What are Zatanna's limitations? Scarlet Witch's? Thor's? Hulk's? With Hulk, supposedly the angrier he gets, the stronger he gets. Worldbreaker Hulk, Maestro, etc.

Again, there are way more powerful fictional characters running around than Vixen. Green Lanterns (all of them) run around doing far more powerful things than Vixen does. You've got Marvel gods running around on Avengers teams. You got demi-goddesses running around being the daughter of Zeus.

And Vixen's powers are limited to ANIMALS. It doesn't matter if those animals are living, or extinct, or mythological, or human, or non-human. Anything ANIMAL-related she can do and should be able to do because that is the power Anansi gave her. She's a magical character just like any other magical character. I don't see anyone trying to put limits on the magical abilities of Zatanna, Constantine, Dr. Strange or Doctor Fate, etc. etc. Spawn's got a lot of magical abilities but I don't see anyone complaining about his power levels, either.

And her using mythological animals does not stop you from learning about real-life animals when she mimics real-life animals. Also, it makes zero sense for Vixen to be an Animal Master but only limiting herself to the mimicry of real-life animals because she can and has been shown to do much more than that.

This is not like her suddenly being able to turn water into wine, or suddenly being able to communicate with plant life, or suddenly being able to control the elements. We're talking about her mimicking any and all animals as she sees fit, which still does not mean that she is unstoppable. We're talking about her still doing stuff within the confines of animal mimicry. There's more to the animal kingdom than just the "real-life" animals...and some of those real-life animals (humans) some people STILL think she shouldn't be able to mimic, which to me is odd.

And personally, I don't think a writer making up alien animals is "the ultimate in lazy writing" because writers, especially writers who write superhero comics, have to create alien races and super powers and other things on a regular basis, so I don't see why creating alien animals would be any different. That's like saying the writer who thought up Lockjaw of the Inhumans was a lazy writer, or the writer who thought up Rocket Raccoon was a lazy writer. I also think that suggesting writers thinking up alien animals is somehow "lazy writing" is an unfair attack on writers who write superhero comic books, or any kind of fiction/fantasy stories. That's not "lazy writing." That's creativity.

Furthermore, attacking writers for creating alien animals in a genre where people (and some animals) are running around with SUPER POWERS on a daily basis is illogical to me.

[OopsIdiditagain]

I don't think so. It's increasing her power, no matter how you slice it. I don't want more power increases. For anyone. Every character's thread has reasons and stories they claim could be told with it, but it still comes down to power increase/expansion.

Then I think we're just in different places. I'd have preferred the businesswoman/model fighting poachers (and other groups), per her original appearance. I'm not into mythology for my comic book heroes. Keep arguing for less of it for Diana. And wouldn't mind jettisoning the king thing for Arthur (seriously repetitive storylines with him losing the kingdom and some depressingly colonialist aspects to me of having an outsider (he's rarely raised in their culture) have to rule them and civilize them - since they keep going all bloodthirsty invader and discriminatory and so forth). Though she doesn't have Arthur's issues. Though I would like to ask when she became a monarch. Earlier she was a reverend's daughter and dictator's niece, right? Was this a COIE change or New 52 or something in the 90s/00s? I know the wiki said her father became president, so did her uncle became dictator overthrowing him? Or was he just muscle, not leader?

I really like learning how things happened in publishing order, rather than in-universe chronology, but don't know a good source for that.

I am learning what people like, though, so that's cool.

I guess this is a taste thing. I know Wonder Woman's myth aspects has had its lows but its highs were pretty cool. I like what they did with her in the current Justice League Dark, I liked when they explored different cultures by introducing Hindu deities. It makes her story have a more "epic" feel similar to the classic greek heroes she's inspired from.

Vixen the businesswoman is a great aspect of her character but it's not great enough to bar her character from other types of enemies. She's not the only White Collar "street-level" hero and it's not like DC has ever given her political intrigue storylines that could rival game of thrones' or Dune's. But that's more to do with her not having a proper solo series.... But I understand your point.

Either way, I wouldn't hold my breath on DC not adding magical monsters to her roster. With the future comic hinting at her being a "GodKiller" and giving her Dr Mist as a supporting character, I'm expecting more fantastical storylines.

[Agent Z]

Then you're misunderstanding people. Having the ability to mimic an Adze or something =/= making her OP, it's giving her justification to fight more fantastical enemies and move into other genres. She's already a champion of Anansi, a mythical trickster, so it's not too far off for her to take up more magical story elements.

If anything writing her character to use more African mythos in her superpowers could make Vixen's role as an African monarch more grounded. It's a chance for African mythology representation too.

Mari's not a monarch.

As for the rest of the conversation, I honestly go back and forth between whether or not Mari should mimic superpowered beings.

[MoneySpider]

I can understand how some people might not personally like Vixen mimicking superhuman abilities or mythological animals, but both are well within her powerset.

And I think it's a bit unfair to the character to try to place certain limitations on her powers when those certain limitations should not exist because those powers that are being limited are well within her wheelhouse. Saying she can mimic the abilities of all animals (including humans, which are primates), but saying "But she shouldn't be able to mimic THESE specific animals (humans/superhumans and mythological animals" makes no sense to me. Either she mimics all animals, or she doesn't.

And DC Comics/DC Entertainment says she mimics ALL animals. Living, dead, mythological, alien (although I don't think she's ever mimicked alien animals before), etc. etc. If it's classified as an animal, she can mimic it.

That's just the way it is. The Tantu Totem, through Anansi, connects her to ALL life (minus plants and trees). Several writers have picked up on this and will most likely continue to pick up on it in the future.

That doesn't mean she can never lose or will never lose. No animal is unstoppable.

Some people may not like John Stewart teleporting wherever he wants, or walking through walls, or forming an entire army of green soldiers as backup in a battle, or flying through space at tremendous speeds with his ring, but that's part of his powerset as a Green Lantern. That's what DC says he can do, so that's what he does.

Same with Vixen, just with animals. ALL of them.

And if we're talking about characters being overpowered and "this character shouldn't be able to do that", then we'd have to discuss this for characters who are beyond street-level across the board. Because as "overpowered" as some of us think Vixen is or would be WITHOUT the Totem, or with mimicking humans/superhumans or mythological animals, there are still plenty of ways for Vixen to lose in a straight-up fight in the DC Universe.

Vixen could probably try to mimic every animal that she can think of AT THE SAME TIME and still would most likely lose instantly to someone like Zatanna or Doctor Fate.

[MoneySpider]

Mari's not a monarch.

As for the rest of the conversation, I honestly go back and forth between whether or not Mari should mimic superpowered beings.

Mari was the Queen of Zambesi in that non-canon "Bombshells" series from a few years ago, surprisingly.

[Redjack]

without giving anything away, Vixen doesn't need mythological beasts or alien creatures (unless she's on an alien world). She's plenty powerful enough to go toe-to-toe with Superman or Wonder Woman right now.

folks just need to think through what her power actually is and what's available to her.

[MoneySpider]

without giving anything away, Vixen doesn't need mythological beasts or alien creatures (unless she's on an alien world). She's plenty powerful enough to go toe-to-toe with Superman or Wonder Woman right now.

folks just need to think through what her power actually is and what's available to her.

And that is definitely saying A LOT (which is definitely a good thing).

[SecretWarrior]

i think everyone here will be well pleased.

Dude, thanks for showing Mari and John some overdue love.

[Celgress]

Dude, thanks for showing Mari and John some overdue love.

Yup, kudos to you.

[Celgress]

without giving anything away, Vixen doesn't need mythological beasts or alien creatures (unless she's on an alien world). She's plenty powerful enough to go toe-to-toe with Superman or Wonder Woman right now.

folks just need to think through what her power actually is and what's available to her.

Very true, lots of animals are incredibly strong by human standards: even tiny insects can lift many times their own mass with ease.

[lemonpeace]

without giving anything away, Vixen doesn't need mythological beasts or alien creatures (unless she's on an alien world). She's plenty powerful enough to go toe-to-toe with Superman or Wonder Woman right now. folks just need to think through what her power actually is and what's available to her.

Ha! see, that's what I was saying. I don't think there is anything wrong with expanding on Vixen's powers, I believe her abilities are plenty nuanced to allow for a lot of grandiose things on the level of any of the Trinity, but it's about how you portray them.

personally, I see magical beast and stuff as like the hellbat. Batman doesn't need to walking around in hellbat to be formidable, but if the plot and the setting can reasonably allow it then there isn't anything wrong with letting him use it to punch Darkseid in the face.

[MoneySpider]

that's a good point. It's nothing reasonable restrictions can't fix tho. like seeing as the Vixen's connection to The Red (and the Red itself) is magical in nature, you could say magical beings require like a contract or some kind of sacrifice to access. as for aliens, that's an easy one to fix. I believe with Beast Boy in one of the Teen Titans movies they established that the animals he had access to was determinate on his location (planet, dimension, etc.), so they could just synergize that idea in the comics for all Red users. that way it stops her from just pulling Krypto mimicry out of her ass and basically just he a kryptonian because she would have to be on Krypton to access Kryptonian animals and Kryptonian animals are just animals on Krypton.

on a tangential note: hot take(?) I've never been crazy about the idea of her mimicking humans and then being able to use different heroes' abilitiew. it's just such a hokey convoluted approach to her powers. if she copies humanity she should just be a smarter person or it should be something more like the "heart" aspect of Captain Planet.

Nah, since Krypto is on Earth and has powers, and Vixen is mimicking animal powers on Earth, there's no reason why she can't mimic Krypto, just like she can mimic Gorilla Grodd, and has done, in canon, when she teamed up with Flash to defeat Grodd way back in Flash #45-47.

How come no one's trying to slap magical restrictions on Zatanna, Dr. Strange, Constantine or Doctor Fate? (rhetorical question).

[Celgress]

Nah, since Krypto is on Earth and has powers, and Vixen is mimicking animal powers on Earth, there's no reason why she can't mimic Krypto, just like she can mimic Gorilla Grodd, and has done, in canon, when she teamed up with Flash to defeat Grodd way back in Flash #45-47.

A valid point. I suppose the counter-argument would be unlike Grodd the dog Krypto isn't native to Earth thus maybe Vixen can't mimic him because of his alien genetic makeup.