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  1. #646
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drako View Post
    And what do you think they are trying to do? If anything, he is in a better place than he was 5 months ago. It's not much, but it's a start.

    But whatever man, I'm just not going to bash a character for the decisions made by the editorial to undermine him.
    If they were trying to that that they wouldn’t have left him with Jurgens. That’s an awful start. He’s not really any better than he was 5 months ago, there’s JL, but now they are also bleeding Ric into Nightwing. Wasting his return and any momentum he might have had from it.

    And its not bashing the character, it’s being honest about his current harsh reality and the situation they created. If they think they can just sell Nightwing as this accomplished superhero, with out putting in the work to actually rebuild him out of this hole they dug, they are kidding themselves. The character is a joke right now, he is hard to read. It’s painful to read the crap the keep producing with him. And crap stains.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 10-30-2020 at 02:58 AM.

  2. #647
    Invincible Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    Are they really Justice League Jr or is just the common perception of them that doesn't really hold up to what's actually being published? Sure the YJ team is under the JL's thumb but the Teen Titans has always been a collection of side kicks trying to find their own path (Robin, Speedy, Kid Flash) and a collection of non side kick characters (Raven, Starfire, Beastboy), all of whom from very different background who kind of end up needing each other to grow.
    The current Titans and Young Justice teams are both working with the League - Miss Martian and the Wonder Twins respectively are their liaisons. The team assembled by Damian was unsanctioned, but it looks like that team gets taken in by the senior Titans, and therefore, by the League, next issue, thus presumably setting up this combined group for Death Metal. It's odd that Djinn is there though, considering she left the Teen Titans months ago.
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  3. #648
    Astonishing Member failo.legendkiller's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgoth View Post
    Attachment 101870
    From Death Metal: The Last Stories of the DC Universe. Joshua Williamson is writing Titans story.
    Argent!!!
    I'm not following any of these Death Metal nonsense so I can be wrong, but it may be the first appearence since Flashpoint.
    Happy to see her again, there is Risk too.

  4. #649
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    Quote Originally Posted by failo.legendkiller View Post
    Argent!!!
    I'm not following any of these Death Metal nonsense so I can be wrong, but it may be the first appearence since Flashpoint.
    Happy to see her again, there is Risk too.
    Risk's got maybe two appearances left in him, he's just got the two legs left.

  5. #650
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    It is clear that they do not want to show him until Tomasi finishes the arc (this tie-in and 'Tec arc finale will be out at the same week), but somehow it looks extremely strange that they put Damian's team here (and even Djinn returned), but he himself is not here, although there may be a silhouette at the top is him.
    Wallace, I assume, is with Barry, Wally and the rest of the Flash Family.

  6. #651
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgoth View Post
    Attachment 101870
    From Death Metal: The Last Stories of the DC Universe. Joshua Williamson is writing Titans story.
    Well it's a big DC event and that's a lot of Titans so uhh we have to take bets. How many and which Titans are gonna die?

    Im putting bets on Risk and Mirage as total fodder bait.

    But I also think they might off Garth and maybe Kyle just cause Jackson and not Garth is the new Aquaman in Future State and there's so many damn Lanterns and DC seems to have little idea what to really do with Kyle in particular and unlike the fodder bait their deaths would actually hit people.

    Also maybe Terra (for like the what 4th time?) because they haven't even bothered to design a new costume for her so she's just wearing a uniform for a team that's been defunct for a while now, doesn't exactly say DC has much interest in her.. but she's a known name so her death would be something as well.

    And Roundhouse just for fan service at this point really.
    Last edited by Mojo; 10-30-2020 at 05:49 AM.

  7. #652
    Astonishing Member Factor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badou View Post
    I don't think the writer matters. I think that is just how DC views the property and characters. Once Dick's generation became adults they outgrew what the Titans were, but they are still stuck in the same place because the JL will always operate above them. They will never be on equal footing. The JL will always be more involved in bigger stories and those stories will eventually shape what the Titans direction is, especially because the Titans are filled with legacy characters of the JL and aren't independent. So they are between a rock and a hard place. Being too old to identify with the core concept of the Titans, which is being young heroes, but then stuck below the JL characters that diminish their relevance. So they get squeezed out. It is why DC is willing to erase, kill off, or change their history to something more useful to them. Such as moving Cyborg to the JL or deage some others to make them stay in that young hero group indefinitely.



    The core identity of the Titans is being young heroes. Young heroes learning and growing together. That is their legacy, but after the original Titans grow up and you have Tim's generation after them, and now even Damian's generation after Tim's, what do you do with all these characters? Can these adult Titans really work when they are no longer part of that core identity of what the Titans are? You can't say they are "young heroes" anymore when they are old enough to get married and are having kids of their own. They should be past trying to find their own path at this point. This wasn't an issue back in the New Teen Titans days because they were still the youngest gen of heroes back then, but now they are not.

    So what DC has been trying to do and failing for decades is figuring out what to do with these older Titans. DC will never have them properly join the Justice League, since they view having characters like Bruce and Dick on the same team as being redundant, but then if the adult Titans operate as their own team they default into being Justice League Jr because of how the JL is more important. It's a no win situation.

    Then you have the route of the adult Titans playing babysitter or teacher to the younger Titans, but then that goes against what the core identity of what the Titans were originally. Dick's generation didn't have older Titans telling them what to do. They were young heroes on their own. Readers disliked it when the JL bossed around Dick's gen, so why should the new Titans take orders from older characters instead of being on their own? It's why the Titans Academy or trying to turn them into the X-Men concept won't work because it fundamentally changes what the Titans were originally.

    The X-Men were from the start young heroes in a school setting being lead by an adult. Then as the young heroes grew they became the adults and teachers themselves to the younger X-Men. It's a very well constructed concept. Then the X-Men are also completely independent and don't need the Avengers or Spider-man to function, but the Titans are sidekicks to the JL and characters like Batman or Flash are essential. So the Titans can never be truly independent in that way. I really just don't know what the answer is because I've never seen an idea that worked for these adult Titans.
    I agree with your points about DC views the team. That's absolutely right. They have no idea what to do with these characters and what role they should play when they're no longer the youngest or freshest team around.
    But I also think the team isn't without hope. I don't think JL-lite is all they can be. The way you describe the team's core concept van be very limiting.
    In my mind, the basic concept of the adult Titans are heroes who have been training together since they were kids and now are older and more experienced. A new Titans book should be about what they do with that experience, what different new role they carve in the superhero community? They don't have to be JL-lite because they've been that already when they were growing up. Now they have the experience of training together and becoming heroes at much earlier points in their lives than the League.
    They should have a totally different perspective to superheroing than their older peers and a good writer would know to explore that and really find how that would reflect in a mission statement that's not JL 2.0. They could do better, they could do different.
    The JL nowadays is basically an army of gods that deal with big catastrophes. They all have their own superhero careers in their respective cities or areas of expertise and they can't always be on call.
    So why can't the Titans be the more approachable team? Experienced heroes who are more available to the needs of the people they have sworn to protect? The ones people can aspire to become, instead of worship?
    They both could handle huge threats, but the JL does so when their computer alarm goes off and the Titans when they get a call from someone in need. They'd have a different approach to superheroing than the League and a niche that's not really taken today, even if it's a pretty simple one.

    The Titans CAN Be their own thing and still be important to the larger DCU, it's just a matter of DC really commiting to a strong and consistent direction.

  8. #653
    Spectacular Member Grandmaster_J's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgoth View Post
    Wallace, I assume, is with Barry, Wally and the rest of the Flash Family.
    So this will be taking place during, Speed Metal? Good way of explaining the absence.
    Last edited by Grandmaster_J; 10-30-2020 at 07:11 AM.

  9. #654
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    Quote Originally Posted by Factor View Post
    I agree with your points about DC views the team. That's absolutely right. They have no idea what to do with these characters and what role they should play when they're no longer the youngest or freshest team around.
    But I also think the team isn't without hope. I don't think JL-lite is all they can be. The way you describe the team's core concept van be very limiting.
    In my mind, the basic concept of the adult Titans are heroes who have been training together since they were kids and now are older and more experienced. A new Titans book should be about what they do with that experience, what different new role they carve in the superhero community? They don't have to be JL-lite because they've been that already when they were growing up. Now they have the experience of training together and becoming heroes at much earlier points in their lives than the League.
    They should have a totally different perspective to superheroing than their older peers and a good writer would know to explore that and really find how that would reflect in a mission statement that's not JL 2.0. They could do better, they could do different.
    The JL nowadays is basically an army of gods that deal with big catastrophes. They all have their own superhero careers in their respective cities or areas of expertise and they can't always be on call.
    So why can't the Titans be the more approachable team? Experienced heroes who are more available to the needs of the people they have sworn to protect? The ones people can aspire to become, instead of worship?
    They both could handle huge threats, but the JL does so when their computer alarm goes off and the Titans when they get a call from someone in need. They'd have a different approach to superheroing than the League and a niche that's not really taken today, even if it's a pretty simple one.

    The Titans CAN Be their own thing and still be important to the larger DCU, it's just a matter of DC really commiting to a strong and consistent direction.
    The problem is that if the Titans are the "approachable" team, it still makes them below the League. They aren't the big guns. They aren't the come and uppers who will shake the status quo and stand as the equals of the League. They are the one who decided that being your friendly neighborhood heroes was enough for them - but unlike Spidey, they aren't a big stand-alone IP, and the big DC team has a far greater fame than even the Avengers have at Marvel, comics-side at least.

  10. #655
    Astonishing Member failo.legendkiller's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sutekh View Post
    Risk's got maybe two appearances left in him, he's just got the two legs left.
    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
    Poor Cody, he was a good character. He did not deserve this massacre, damn Geoff and your thirst for shock moments!

  11. #656
    Astonishing Member Factor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    The problem is that if the Titans are the "approachable" team, it still makes them below the League. They aren't the big guns. They aren't the come and uppers who will shake the status quo and stand as the equals of the League. They are the one who decided that being your friendly neighborhood heroes was enough for them - but unlike Spidey, they aren't a big stand-alone IP, and the big DC team has a far greater fame than even the Avengers have at Marvel, comics-side at least.
    I disagree. The main difference in the MOs of both teams is that the League would only respond to their system's alarms or the calls of official organizations, while the Titans would respond to distress calls from civillians.
    Both teams could take on large-scale threats. A regular citizen could alert the Titans to an alien invasion that the League's system couldn't identify. There would be no limit to the type of missions the Titans could have.
    They wouldn't be lesser than the League because they'd be able to do something the League has no capacity to.
    Both teams would complement each other, one wouldn't be above the other. They'd just have different approaches to superheroing due to each team's availability and competences.

  12. #657
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
    Well it's a big DC event and that's a lot of Titans so uhh we have to take bets. How many and which Titans are gonna die?

    Im putting bets on Risk and Mirage as total fodder bait.

    But I also think they might off Garth and maybe Kyle just cause Jackson and not Garth is the new Aquaman in Future State and there's so many damn Lanterns and DC seems to have little idea what to really do with Kyle in particular and unlike the fodder bait their deaths would actually hit people.

    Also maybe Terra (for like the what 4th time?) because they haven't even bothered to design a new costume for her so she's just wearing a uniform for a team that's been defunct for a while now, doesn't exactly say DC has much interest in her.. but she's a known name so her death would be something as well.

    And Roundhouse just for fan service at this point really.
    It is telling that Roundhouse wasn't on the Future State Teen Titans cover, while Red Arrow and Crush were, and Kid Flash has a good excuse for being absent there (he'll be depowered in the FS Flash solo book).

    Tempest being killed would make sense since yes, it would make sense for him to be the new Aquaman instead of Jackson otherwise. Kyle though, would be due for a depowering in Future State anyway, as all of the Green Lanterns will be depowered (including Teen Lantern) with the exception of Far Sector's Jo Mullein.
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  13. #658
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badou View Post
    I don't think the writer matters. I think that is just how DC views the property and characters. Once Dick's generation became adults they outgrew what the Titans were, but they are still stuck in the same place because the JL will always operate above them. They will never be on equal footing. The JL will always be more involved in bigger stories and those stories will eventually shape what the Titans direction is, especially because the Titans are filled with legacy characters of the JL and aren't independent. So they are between a rock and a hard place. Being too old to identify with the core concept of the Titans, which is being young heroes, but then stuck below the JL characters that diminish their relevance. So they get squeezed out. It is why DC is willing to erase, kill off, or change their history to something more useful to them. Such as moving Cyborg to the JL or deage some others to make them stay in that young hero group indefinitely.
    I think the writer matters a heck of a lot depending on the quality of their writing and how they envision the team. Abnett was just the wrong choice to try and shepherd the book.

    What really necessitates "equal footing?" writing stories where the JL is powerless to stop a Titans-specific threat so the Titans can outshine the League? Do we need that as a barometer for indicating that a threat the Titans fight is worth them fighting and doesn't make them lower than the League?
    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    If they were trying to that that they wouldnít have left him with Jurgens. Thatís an awful start. Heís not really any better than he was 5 months ago, thereís JL, but now they are also bleeding Ric into Nightwing. Wasting his return and any momentum he might have had from it.

    And its not bashing the character, itís being honest about his current harsh reality and the situation they created. If they think they can just sell Nightwing as this accomplished superhero, with out putting in the work to actually rebuild him out of this hole they dug, they are kidding themselves. The character is a joke right now, he is hard to read. Itís painful to read the crap the keep producing with him. And crap stains.
    They're probably relaunching the book so I don't think it really matters right now who is writing the solo.
    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    The problem is that if the Titans are the "approachable" team, it still makes them below the League. They aren't the big guns. They aren't the come and uppers who will shake the status quo and stand as the equals of the League. They are the one who decided that being your friendly neighborhood heroes was enough for them - but unlike Spidey, they aren't a big stand-alone IP, and the big DC team has a far greater fame than even the Avengers have at Marvel, comics-side at least.
    I don't know if any Titans team has acted like their satisfied just being a "friendly neighborhood heroes." I think they do, and should, see themselves as the big guns in their own right who take on threats the League doesn't.

  14. #659
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    What would take for the titans to be on equal footing with the league? It's simple: Start by not having the league coordinate, supervise or fund the titans in any way, unlike what they tried to pull off with ms. martian or by having batman declare the teen titans are finished when it's not his call.

    Continue by not having them be affected in some other books, leaving the titans books with the fallout, like tom king pointed out
    We’re talking with the Titans writer about characters death and they said you guys always kill our characters! That’s the thing, you can’t kill the main Justice League guys, you can’t kill other characters who has a book, so it ends up always being the middle guys, and they're Titans. Roy, Wally, Hotshot… except Nightwing. I already shot him.
    . If they are affected, it better be part of a undergoing storyarc in a titans book.

    The league considering calling the titans for help against the main villain they are having trouble with, rather than the usual procedure of having them show up in the background fighting fodder (if they are even mentioned at all) , or vice versa, would be appreciated but not strictly necessary. However, in the event they team up against something i'd expect a modicum of respect for both teams, and especially if they are fighting against each other (see the technis imperative and the johns' teen titans run for examples). And the big shot titans vilains should also involve the justice league if they pose a significant threat, otherwise it rings hollow.

    trigon JL.jpg

    In short, all editorial has to do is to learn how to be impartial.

  15. #660
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    They're probably relaunching the book so I don't think it really matters right now who is writing the solo.
    And what’s is a relaunch going to have going for it months after he’s returned and no reboot. Shops will just use his last series as an order basis. If there even is a relaunch. As WB are making cuts and restructuring the department. In the mean time they are just letting the same writer continue to create disinterest going into the next year.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 10-30-2020 at 04:04 PM.

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