Titans Appreciation 2020

**Frontier** · 10-30-2020, 09:02 PM

Originally Posted by Godlike13

And what’s is a relaunch going to have going for it months after he’s returned and no reboot. Shops will just use his last series as an order basis. If there even is a relaunch. As WB are making cuts and restructuring the department. In the mean time they are just letting the same writer continue to create disinterest going into the next year.

A relaunch will have a new writer with a new take. I'd be surprised if Jurgens is still on it by Future State.

**warzon** · 10-31-2020, 11:26 PM

They forgot Flamebird.The Golden Eagle and Gnarrk and Redstar

**Sutekh** · 11-01-2020, 06:48 AM

Originally Posted by warzon

They forgot Flamebird.The Golden Eagle and Gnarrk and Redstar

Everyone forgets Golden Eagle! Sorry Charlie, another decade of being Forerunner's sex-slave!

**Badou** · 11-02-2020, 04:17 PM

Originally Posted by Factor

I agree with your points about DC views the team. That's absolutely right. They have no idea what to do with these characters and what role they should play when they're no longer the youngest or freshest team around.
But I also think the team isn't without hope. I don't think JL-lite is all they can be. The way you describe the team's core concept van be very limiting.
In my mind, the basic concept of the adult Titans are heroes who have been training together since they were kids and now are older and more experienced. A new Titans book should be about what they do with that experience, what different new role they carve in the superhero community? They don't have to be JL-lite because they've been that already when they were growing up. Now they have the experience of training together and becoming heroes at much earlier points in their lives than the League.
They should have a totally different perspective to superheroing than their older peers and a good writer would know to explore that and really find how that would reflect in a mission statement that's not JL 2.0. They could do better, they could do different.
The JL nowadays is basically an army of gods that deal with big catastrophes. They all have their own superhero careers in their respective cities or areas of expertise and they can't always be on call.
So why can't the Titans be the more approachable team? Experienced heroes who are more available to the needs of the people they have sworn to protect? The ones people can aspire to become, instead of worship?
They both could handle huge threats, but the JL does so when their computer alarm goes off and the Titans when they get a call from someone in need. They'd have a different approach to superheroing than the League and a niche that's not really taken today, even if it's a pretty simple one.

The Titans CAN Be their own thing and still be important to the larger DCU, it's just a matter of DC really commiting to a strong and consistent direction.

I don't think the "approachable team" is a strong enough concept to build an entire team around. Maybe you can get an issue out of it, but how does that turn into an entire run? How does that really lead to them being treated by DC any differently than they are now? I'm a Nightwing fan and I've heard the same things from his fans about how he should be written. How he is the "more personable" hero and that is what separates him from Batman, but that isn't really a concept that leads to actual stories. All it leads to is a few panels of him talking to cops smiling and then it is all the same stuff. It just isn't enough to define a core mission statement for a hero or team.

You also run into the issue that the JL can be the approachable team if DC wants. They can be anything because they are the team DC is invested in. So it isn't something unique to the Titans. You could even argue that the JSA are the better approachable team because their team's legacy and family dynamic is much better integrated than both the Titans or the JL. Since it is a team comprised of a wide range of generations and ages all working together unlike the JL where it is just adults, or the Titans were it is just younger adults or teens.

So you need a more focused concept because the JL can do and be anything DC wants. The Titans do have something that is unique to them. They are THE young hero team in DC. That is something the JL will never be, but once those older Titans become adults they no longer fit into the core identity of what the Titans are. They are no longer young heroes and are at odds with the team's identity, but I've said this all before and just repeating it. I just don't see how these adult Titans can escape that problem.

I've thought about it and the only way to get around this problem a bit I think is to have characters like Dick, Wally, and Donna be full Justice League members, which I know isn't a popular idea and obviously doesn't solve all the problems, but they should have a permanent seat at the JL table and be looked at and treated as full JL members. Since them not being in that JL is held against them and prevents them from being treated as actual adult heroes. They can still be Titans and lead Titans teams, heroes are allowed to be on multiple teams, but the main reason for this is because the Titans will never escape the JL's influence or control then at least the JL members overseeing and controlling the Titans are former Titans where it isn't as invasive as a Batman doing it.

Originally Posted by Frontier

I think the writer matters a heck of a lot depending on the quality of their writing and how they envision the team. Abnett was just the wrong choice to try and shepherd the book.

What really necessitates "equal footing?" writing stories where the JL is powerless to stop a Titans-specific threat so the Titans can outshine the League? Do we need that as a barometer for indicating that a threat the Titans fight is worth them fighting and doesn't make them lower than the League?

Equal footing is about being respected. It isn't about one outshining the other, but both being treated fairly. Not throwing one under the bus to elevate the other, but it is all a mute point. The Titans will never be on equal footing with the JL. So it is a bit pointless trying to figure out how it should work because DC has already decided. The JL are the major leagues and the Titans are the minor leagues in very simple terms. It's been that way for decades and it will never change.

The Titans will move into the JL when DC find it appropriate (we are seeing it with Future Slate again) but because so many of the Titans are legacy characters of the JL they will never be on the JL at the same time. So characters like Dick or Donna are stuck in this limbo of being on the young team or going to the adult team when needed, which hurts their characters ultimately. So the Titans are constantly getting promoted or demoted when DC sees fit, but also because of so many being legacy characters that means they will never be independent. Their direction will always be influenced or shapes by what is going on in the JL because that is where the "important" stories happen, and the Titans will never be that. Realistically characters like Dick, Donna, and Wally gain nothing from not being on the JL and them not having a seat at the table will always be held against them too.

**Frontier** · 11-02-2020, 04:32 PM

Originally Posted by Badou

Equal footing is about being respected. It isn't about one outshining the other, but both being treated fairly. Not throwing one under the bus to elevate the other, but it is all a mute point. The Titans will never be on equal footing with the JL. So it is a bit pointless trying to figure out how it should work because DC has already decided. The JL are the major leagues and the Titans are the minor leagues in very simple terms. It's been that way for decades and it will never change.

The Titans will move into the JL when DC find it appropriate (we are seeing it with Future Slate again) but because so many of the Titans are legacy characters of the JL they will never be on the JL at the same time. So characters like Dick or Donna are stuck in this limbo of being on the young team or going to the adult team when needed, which hurts their characters ultimately. So the Titans are constantly getting promoted or demoted when DC sees fit, but also because of so many being legacy characters that means they will never be independent. Their direction will always be influenced or shapes by what is going on in the JL because that is where the "important" stories happen, and the Titans will never be that. Realistically characters like Dick, Donna, and Wally gain nothing from not being on the JL and them not having a seat at the table will always be held against them too.

I think being treated with equal footing is prescient on a writer that treats the team seriously and sees them as equal to the Justice League, irregardless of whatever the League is doing.

I don't see Joshua Williamson writing a Titans where they're subservient or second to the League on anything (if, y'know, he ends up as the new Titans writer). I think Titans characters would gain fine if they were being used in a Titans title that actually had good writing and was depicting them well.

**Badou** · 11-02-2020, 11:40 PM

Originally Posted by Frontier

I think being treated with equal footing is prescient on a writer that treats the team seriously and sees them as equal to the Justice League, irregardless of whatever the League is doing.

I don't see Joshua Williamson writing a Titans where they're subservient or second to the League on anything (if, y'know, he ends up as the new Titans writer). I think Titans characters would gain fine if they were being used in a Titans title that actually had good writing and was depicting them well.

But then there will be a big DC event/JL event that will shape the Titans direction like always. The Titans as a franchise can never compete with that. So it doesn't really matter how Williamson writes them in the end because the Titans as a franchise are positioned beneath the JL. They will always be second to them. Then because of the type of relationship they have with how they can never be independent the JL stories will always bleed into whatever the Titans end up doing, and even if a Williamson doesn't intend it he will fall right in line with what always ends up happening with these adult Titans characters. I feel like it is inescapable at this point because nothing in decades from DC has given me any indication to think differently.

**Godlike13** · 11-03-2020, 05:11 AM

Titans don’t need to compete, that shouldn’t be the goal cause that’s over before it starts. Titans needs to coexist. That’s what they need to figure out. They don’t have to be better, but they do have to justify themselves in some capacity. And that doesn’t need to be by being the best. It doesn’t have to be JL or bust.

**Claude** · 11-03-2020, 08:50 AM

If it were me, the big difference between the League and the Titans that make them very different teams and books would be that the League is a day job - monitor duty et al - whereas the Titans are just people who live very eventful lives.

Presuppose that the Titans either live together in the Tower or hang out there most days - tough in the new continuity, would need some work - and then have their adventures just happen to them as they go about their lives. They don't go to space On A Mission, they go to space because one of Starfire's friends is getting married and the Space Wedding is crashed by parademons. They don't get called in to help solve baffling, high profile murders - but Beast Boy asks the Titans for help when one of his family's wealthy neighbours disappears. That kind of thing.

It means they're reactive rather than proactive, but done well that would be half the fun. It's just Things That Happen To Them, and that would immediately put them in different types of stories to the League.

**Factor** · 11-03-2020, 09:22 AM

Originally Posted by Badou

I don't think the "approachable team" is a strong enough concept to build an entire team around. Maybe you can get an issue out of it, but how does that turn into an entire run? How does that really lead to them being treated by DC any differently than they are now? I'm a Nightwing fan and I've heard the same things from his fans about how he should be written. How he is the "more personable" hero and that is what separates him from Batman, but that isn't really a concept that leads to actual stories. All it leads to is a few panels of him talking to cops smiling and then it is all the same stuff. It just isn't enough to define a core mission statement for a hero or team.

You also run into the issue that the JL can be the approachable team if DC wants. They can be anything because they are the team DC is invested in. So it isn't something unique to the Titans. You could even argue that the JSA are the better approachable team because their team's legacy and family dynamic is much better integrated than both the Titans or the JL. Since it is a team comprised of a wide range of generations and ages all working together unlike the JL where it is just adults, or the Titans were it is just younger adults or teens.

So you need a more focused concept because the JL can do and be anything DC wants. The Titans do have something that is unique to them. They are THE young hero team in DC. That is something the JL will never be, but once those older Titans become adults they no longer fit into the core identity of what the Titans are. They are no longer young heroes and are at odds with the team's identity, but I've said this all before and just repeating it. I just don't see how these adult Titans can escape that problem.

I've thought about it and the only way to get around this problem a bit I think is to have characters like Dick, Wally, and Donna be full Justice League members, which I know isn't a popular idea and obviously doesn't solve all the problems, but they should have a permanent seat at the JL table and be looked at and treated as full JL members. Since them not being in that JL is held against them and prevents them from being treated as actual adult heroes. They can still be Titans and lead Titans teams, heroes are allowed to be on multiple teams, but the main reason for this is because the Titans will never escape the JL's influence or control then at least the JL members overseeing and controlling the Titans are former Titans where it isn't as invasive as a Batman doing it.

Equal footing is about being respected. It isn't about one outshining the other, but both being treated fairly. Not throwing one under the bus to elevate the other, but it is all a mute point. The Titans will never be on equal footing with the JL. So it is a bit pointless trying to figure out how it should work because DC has already decided. The JL are the major leagues and the Titans are the minor leagues in very simple terms. It's been that way for decades and it will never change.

The Titans will move into the JL when DC find it appropriate (we are seeing it with Future Slate again) but because so many of the Titans are legacy characters of the JL they will never be on the JL at the same time. So characters like Dick or Donna are stuck in this limbo of being on the young team or going to the adult team when needed, which hurts their characters ultimately. So the Titans are constantly getting promoted or demoted when DC sees fit, but also because of so many being legacy characters that means they will never be independent. Their direction will always be influenced or shapes by what is going on in the JL because that is where the "important" stories happen, and the Titans will never be that. Realistically characters like Dick, Donna, and Wally gain nothing from not being on the JL and them not having a seat at the table will always be held against them too.

You think DC can't build a super-hero series around the concept of a team of some of their most famous characters that have been training together since they were kids and now have stepped up to protect people who call for help?
About a team of seasoned heroes that have become as competent as the heroes they were inspired by? Heroes who have been around for so long that their careers have been followed by millions of fans in and out of universe?
There's a lot that can be done with the Titans concept. They don't have to be the top of the food chain to be relatable or to have story potential to mine.
The fact they're more approachable than the League would explain HOW they get their missions, why they're not stepping on the other team's toes every mission and why they don't need to be a subgroup of the League to work and function, but it wouldn't need to be the sole focus of their stories.
And sure, the League can be as approachable as DC likes. They can also start being competent at handling magical threats, but that would make the point of JLDark moot. Of course DC needs to commit to a direction that allows the other teams some space to have their own meaningful stories. My point since the start is the that direction CAN exist and they don't even need to reinvent the wheel to do so.

Originally Posted by Godlike13

Titans don’t need to compete, that shouldn’t be the goal cause that’s over before it starts. Titans needs to coexist. That’s what they need to figure out. They don’t have to be better, but they do have to justify themselves in some capacity. And that doesn’t need to be by being the best. It doesn’t have to be JL or bust.

Exactly! Even if the Avengers are now arguably Marvel's flagship team, the X-men still have plenty of space to shine. Just because they aren't the "main" superteam around, doesn't mean their stories don't matter. The Titans can have their own corner of the DCU too and do their own thing even if the JL will always be the flagship.

**Korath** · 11-03-2020, 12:48 PM

Originally Posted by Factor

Exactly! Even if the Avengers are now arguably Marvel's flagship team, the X-men still have plenty of space to shine. Just because they aren't the "main" superteam around, doesn't mean their stories don't matter. The Titans can have their own corner of the DCU too and do their own thing even if the JL will always be the flagship.

The X-Men's iconic founders aren't mini-mes from the Avengers...

In fact, nowadays they are almost entirely separated from the main Marvel Universe and it works wonderfully for them. The Titans simply can't do that, because they are wound way too tight with the rest of the DCU.

**Factor** · 11-03-2020, 03:42 PM

Originally Posted by Korath

The X-Men's iconic founders aren't mini-mes from the Avengers...

In fact, nowadays they are almost entirely separated from the main Marvel Universe and it works wonderfully for them. The Titans simply can't do that, because they are wound way too tight with the rest of the DCU.

People always say that, but 4 out of the 5 most popular Titans aren't JL Legacies. The team's had 3 popular TV shows where the League is barely mentioned.
They can do new stuff with the franchise without making it about how they're always inferior to the League. Writing JL-lite is the easier route, but it is far from the only route available. A competent creative team and editorial would know that.

**Frontier** · 11-03-2020, 03:44 PM

Originally Posted by Badou

But then there will be a big DC event/JL event that will shape the Titans direction like always. The Titans as a franchise can never compete with that. So it doesn't really matter how Williamson writes them in the end because the Titans as a franchise are positioned beneath the JL. They will always be second to them. Then because of the type of relationship they have with how they can never be independent the JL stories will always bleed into whatever the Titans end up doing, and even if a Williamson doesn't intend it he will fall right in line with what always ends up happening with these adult Titans characters. I feel like it is inescapable at this point because nothing in decades from DC has given me any indication to think differently.

I mean, most titles end up effected by having to tie-in to an event, so it would depend on the event and what the impact is and not really their status versus the Justice League. I don't think it's always going to be something on par with "Ric" or Superboy needing to get traded in for Nightwing during Infinite Crisis.

Originally Posted by Claude

If it were me, the big difference between the League and the Titans that make them very different teams and books would be that the League is a day job - monitor duty et al - whereas the Titans are just people who live very eventful lives.

Presuppose that the Titans either live together in the Tower or hang out there most days - tough in the new continuity, would need some work - and then have their adventures just happen to them as they go about their lives. They don't go to space On A Mission, they go to space because one of Starfire's friends is getting married and the Space Wedding is crashed by parademons. They don't get called in to help solve baffling, high profile murders - but Beast Boy asks the Titans for help when one of his family's wealthy neighbours disappears. That kind of thing.

It means they're reactive rather than proactive, but done well that would be half the fun. It's just Things That Happen To Them, and that would immediately put them in different types of stories to the League.

Maybe I'm missing something, but isn't this how the team usually functions?

Originally Posted by Korath

The X-Men's iconic founders aren't mini-mes from the Avengers...

In fact, nowadays they are almost entirely separated from the main Marvel Universe and it works wonderfully for them. The Titans simply can't do that, because they are wound way too tight with the rest of the DCU.

(Looks at The Phoenix and Wolverine popping up in an upcoming Avengers arc) Well, not that separated