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  1. #631
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drako View Post
    Yet, he is leading a team in the Justice League book by the same writer that is doing this other tie-in, so i don't think Williamson care about the crap he was inflicted to in the past two years.
    By default, something for him to do while the important players deal with the stuff happening in the main series. And even there his confidence is shot. The crap he was inflicted to these past two years have consequences whether they want it to or not, you can’t sped two years destroying a character’s credibility and then try to just pretend he’s still credible. And quite frankly this goes for the Titans in general.

    This is the same mistake they keep making with the Titans. They bank on nestlogia and general fan fondness, but take no consideration in how they have been being presenting them and the effect it has had on their general perception and viability. Not doing the actual work needed to fix or rebuild that. Maybe they should try establishing the Titans, and it members, as credible before they ask people to see them as credible enough to teach anyone. If that’s what this is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Will Evans View Post
    Ironically, Bette Kane would be.

    This could have been her time to shine.
    I what way? She’s has really done anything in a long time.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 10-29-2020 at 06:10 PM.

  2. #632
    Incredible Member Drako's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    By default, something for him to do while the important player deal with the stuff happening in the main series. And even there his confidence is shot. The crap he was inflicted to these past two years have consequences whether they want it to or not, you can’t sped two years destroying a character’s credibility and then try to just pretend he’s still credible. And quite frankly this goes for the Titans in general.
    Yes, you can, cause it's wasn't him. There is no consequences. He was in his little corner doing absolute nothing for the past two years. He basically didn't exist outside of his book. He was manipulated by the joker when he wasn't himself and they brought him back, no one in the Batfamily cared that he was "Dicky-boy" for like 2 seconds. Only Babs have a reason to be pissed at him, and even then we saw her happy for him to be back in one moment and angry at the other (She is angry at everyone in her book, so i don't really care about this one.)

    His case is not like what DC did to Wally that was a complete and utterly character assassination. Dick can move on from this crap pretty quickly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    This is the same mistake they keep making with the Titans. They bank on nestlogia and general fan fondness, but take no consideration in how they have been being presenting them and the effect it has had on their general perception and viability. Not doing the actual work needed to fix or rebuild that. Maybe they should try establishing the Titans, and it members, as credible before they ask people to see them as credible enough to teach anyone. If that’s what this is.
    They have to establish them somewhere, right? Pretty much everyone in that picture doesn't have a solo book. The place to make them credible is the Titans book.

  3. #633
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    It almost looks like gar and donna are talking about how they are going to organize the mess they have in front of them...In a good way.

  4. #634
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    The YJ 4 just jumps to one fails project after another. They’re one of the reason Teen Titans fell into such poor shape.
    I think that's more on editorial and bad writing than the actual characters.

  5. #635
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drako View Post
    Yes, you can, cause it's wasn't him. There is no consequences. He was in his little corner doing absolute nothing for the past two years. He basically didn't exist outside of his book. He was manipulated by the joker when he wasn't himself and they brought him back, no one in the Batfamily cared that he was "Dicky-boy" for like 2 seconds. Only Babs have a reason to be pissed at him, and even then we saw her happy for him to be back in one moment and angry at the other (She is angry at everyone in her book, so i don't really care about this one.)

    His case is not like what DC did to Wally that was a complete and utterly character assassination. Dick can move on from this crap pretty quickly.
    Exactly, he has been in his little corner doing absolute nothing for the past two years. He basically didn't exist outside of his book, just doing all that crap they did with him in his. Nightwing has been one of the worst thing going on for two years now. Its sales are in the toilet, unless he's sucking on the Batman's tit. Dick can move on from this. But its not just gonna be that easy. The character is in bad shape right now, and its not really getting any better even though Dick has returned. To think that doesn't have an effect on his credibly and viability is just naïve. Just pretending that he isn't in awful shape, and that no one noticed all the terrible shit they have had him doing, is ya. Good luck. They have to pull him out of the gutter before they can expect people not to see him as a character in the gutter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drako View Post
    They have to establish them somewhere, right? Pretty much everyone in that picture doesn't have a solo book. The place to make them credible is the Titans book.
    That hasn't worked out so far.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 10-29-2020 at 07:40 PM.

  6. #636
    Astonishing Member Factor's Avatar
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    I hope they don't make Titans Academy a thing in the regular line. Feels too derivative of the X-men's school aspect. Just like the later part of Abnett's run where the team's mission was to find new metahumans.
    When they're not JL-Lite, they're X-wannabees.
    When are DC going to find a cool niche for them?

  7. #637
    Astonishing Member Badou's Avatar
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    Is Nightwing going to ask Batman for permission before starting a new team? We all know how he doesn't want to upset or disappoint Batman from Abnett's run. :P

    Quote Originally Posted by Factor View Post
    I hope they don't make Titans Academy a thing in the regular line. Feels too derivative of the X-men's school aspect. Just like the later part of Abnett's run where the team's mission was to find new metahumans.
    When they're not JL-Lite, they're X-wannabees.
    When are DC going to find a cool niche for them?
    Unfortunately the Titans have no niche and probably never will. Their role is as the default young hero team and they have nothing beyond that. Trying to go the X-Men route again will fall apart like usual I imagine because they just aren't built like the X-Men. The X-Men are independent but the Titans will always operate under the JL because most are legacy characters.

  8. #638
    Incredible Member Drako's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Exactly, he has been in his little corner doing absolute nothing for the past two years. He basically didn't exist outside of his book, just doing all that crap they did with him in his. Nightwing has been one of the worst thing going on for two years now. Its sales are in the toilet, unless he's sucking on the Batman's tit. Dick can move on from this. But its not just gonna be that easy. The character is in bad shape right now, and its not really getting any better even though Dick has returned. To think that doesn't have an effect on his credibly and viability is just naïve. Just pretending that he isn't in awful shape, and that no one noticed all the terrible shit they have had him doing, is ya. Good luck. They have to pull him out of the gutter before they can expect people not to see him as a character in the gutter.
    And what do you think they are trying to do? If anything, he is in a better place than he was 5 months ago. It's not much, but it's a start.

    But whatever man, I'm just not going to bash a character for the decisions made by the editorial to undermine him.
    Last edited by Drako; 10-29-2020 at 09:32 PM.

  9. #639
    Fantastic Member SuperX's Avatar
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    I really love that Pic, wish a couple more would be in it, but it's still cool to see so many on the same Pic. Think some of the characters should be (Imo) bunched up with other characters than the ones they are around in the Pic, but still awesome folks.

    Oh and the YJ4 are amazing,ignoring the haters.

  10. #640
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badou View Post
    Unfortunately the Titans have no niche and probably never will. Their role is as the default young hero team and they have nothing beyond that. Trying to go the X-Men route again will fall apart like usual I imagine because they just aren't built like the X-Men. The X-Men are independent but the Titans will always operate under the JL because most are legacy characters.
    I don't think that's dependent on the team but on the writer. Abnett just wasn't the right writer to handle the Titans.

  11. #641
    Mighty Member John Venus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badou View Post
    Unfortunately the Titans have no niche and probably never will. Their role is as the default young hero team and they have nothing beyond that. Trying to go the X-Men route again will fall apart like usual I imagine because they just aren't built like the X-Men. The X-Men are independent but the Titans will always operate under the JL because most are legacy characters.
    Are they really Justice League Jr or is just the common perception of them that doesn't really hold up to what's actually being published? Sure the YJ team is under the JL's thumb but the Teen Titans has always been a collection of side kicks trying to find their own path (Robin, Speedy, Kid Flash) and a collection of non side kick characters (Raven, Starfire, Beastboy), all of whom from very different background who kind of end up needing each other to grow.

  12. #642
    Fantastic Member BLFB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgoth View Post
    Attachment 101870
    From Death Metal: The Last Stories of the DC Universe. Joshua Williamson is writing Titans story.
    Wait, so Argent is back? cool!! that and the debut of Red X, I really want to read those stories as soon as possible!

  13. #643
    Incredible Member Avi's Avatar
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    Liking a lot of what I'm seeing. Also, is that Lilith and Raven in one image? Wow!

    As for the leader position. I see the point with Vic but considering his position with the Titans is shaky because his history is barely established, and the Titans shouldn't be beneath the JL's thumb, Donna and Kory are also a viable option. But I'm guessing they'll use the whole older Titans as leaders if that's what they are going for at all.

    There seem to be multiple stories again. Quite a few writers are credited and Wally appears on the cover so I expect to see him either in another story or he just didn't make it onto the spread sheet.

    I don't see how this is in any way connected to the X-Men rip off in FS and I hope it stays that way.

  14. #644
    Astonishing Member Badou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I don't think that's dependent on the team but on the writer. Abnett just wasn't the right writer to handle the Titans.
    I don't think the writer matters. I think that is just how DC views the property and characters. Once Dick's generation became adults they outgrew what the Titans were, but they are still stuck in the same place because the JL will always operate above them. They will never be on equal footing. The JL will always be more involved in bigger stories and those stories will eventually shape what the Titans direction is, especially because the Titans are filled with legacy characters of the JL and aren't independent. So they are between a rock and a hard place. Being too old to identify with the core concept of the Titans, which is being young heroes, but then stuck below the JL characters that diminish their relevance. So they get squeezed out. It is why DC is willing to erase, kill off, or change their history to something more useful to them. Such as moving Cyborg to the JL or deage some others to make them stay in that young hero group indefinitely.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    Are they really Justice League Jr or is just the common perception of them that doesn't really hold up to what's actually being published? Sure the YJ team is under the JL's thumb but the Teen Titans has always been a collection of side kicks trying to find their own path (Robin, Speedy, Kid Flash) and a collection of non side kick characters (Raven, Starfire, Beastboy), all of whom from very different background who kind of end up needing each other to grow.
    The core identity of the Titans is being young heroes. Young heroes learning and growing together. That is their legacy, but after the original Titans grow up and you have Tim's generation after them, and now even Damian's generation after Tim's, what do you do with all these characters? Can these adult Titans really work when they are no longer part of that core identity of what the Titans are? You can't say they are "young heroes" anymore when they are old enough to get married and are having kids of their own. They should be past trying to find their own path at this point. This wasn't an issue back in the New Teen Titans days because they were still the youngest gen of heroes back then, but now they are not.

    So what DC has been trying to do and failing for decades is figuring out what to do with these older Titans. DC will never have them properly join the Justice League, since they view having characters like Bruce and Dick on the same team as being redundant, but then if the adult Titans operate as their own team they default into being Justice League Jr because of how the JL is more important. It's a no win situation.

    Then you have the route of the adult Titans playing babysitter or teacher to the younger Titans, but then that goes against what the core identity of what the Titans were originally. Dick's generation didn't have older Titans telling them what to do. They were young heroes on their own. Readers disliked it when the JL bossed around Dick's gen, so why should the new Titans take orders from older characters instead of being on their own? It's why the Titans Academy or trying to turn them into the X-Men concept won't work because it fundamentally changes what the Titans were originally.

    The X-Men were from the start young heroes in a school setting being lead by an adult. Then as the young heroes grew they became the adults and teachers themselves to the younger X-Men. It's a very well constructed concept. Then the X-Men are also completely independent and don't need the Avengers or Spider-man to function, but the Titans are sidekicks to the JL and characters like Batman or Flash are essential. So the Titans can never be truly independent in that way. I really just don't know what the answer is because I've never seen an idea that worked for these adult Titans.

  15. #645
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgoth View Post
    Attachment 101870
    From Death Metal: The Last Stories of the DC Universe. Joshua Williamson is writing Titans story.
    I'm surprised to see Mirage there given that character's disturbing history.

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