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  1. #2956
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    Its the fear of a powerful Black man. The minute black men aren't shown as gangbangers, pimps, drug slingers, or convicts, there's an immediate push to sideline them or replace them, kill them off or have them come out as gay Under the guise of being "progressive" but it's used as a way to try and make them seem less threatening.

    It's very obvious and surprising that people just accept this without question
    ooohhhhhhh!!! Can of worms! I have had this same discussion with so many people. The emasculation of Black men is such a controversial topic.

  2. #2957
    Mighty Member Ekie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cville View Post
    Tchalla was Black Panther for a decade before the start of the movie.
    Must have Missed that in my 5 viewings. Still he is a new King, that deserves some vetting (even if just for his newly introduced audience) . Those challenges better be raining in with all the failures

  3. #2958
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blind Wedjat View Post
    Anyone with a decent background in economic policy would recognise that giving minorities access to things they do not have is what betters a community. I'm sorry if it doesn't sound very exciting, but time and time again it has been proving to work and be what a society needs. Educated kids do not feel the need to steal. Educated kids do not feel the need to kill. Educated kids do not feel the need to join gangs. Educated kids do not feel the need to turn to drugs. And most importantly, educated kids do not feel the need to bury their pain which leads to trauma and rage.

    We've become so enticed with this idea of violent or forceful retribution (which mind you, is what white nationalists and the Alt-Right want black people to feel or do so they can use it as proof that we are violent and subhuman in nature, cannot be reasoned and a race war is simply inevitable), that we don't see what the possible endgame even is. What prosperity would Killmonger's plan have led to? It would have caused another World War, and this is a world with superheroes in it. At best, he will win and would have drained Wakanda of all of its resources. At worst, he would have lost and Wakanda would have effectively been "colonised" the same way Libya was by the US. Just because something sounds moving doesn't mean it's the right one.
    Eric's idea was I am going to give all the oppressed African people these highly advanced weapons so that they can overthrow their oppressors. So that they can no longer be discriminated against. So they can no longer be killed, jailed, starved all over they world. That was part of his anger towards Wakanda is that they did nothing. Even Coogler in an interview stated he would feel anger towards Wakanda if it was in the real world. That is why so many people resonated with Killmonger's plan. They felt the pain he felt. And T'Challa's plan was to create outreach centers? Would it not been a stronger statement to not only have these outreach centers but during the press conference make a statement that if governments around the world continue to oppress these disadvantaged people, Wakanda would be there to defend them? Also after the movie I saw so many memes and shirt with "Killmonger was right." Funny I did not see a single meme or shirt stating that T'Challa was right. That is why is said if you look at the structure of the movie, it was so much of a Killmonger origin story.

  4. #2959
    Mighty Member dkrook's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by taozen View Post
    ooohhhhhhh!!! Can of worms! I have had this same discussion with so many people. The emasculation of Black men is such a controversial topic.
    You ain't neva lied! Lol. Some folk don't recognize it, some won't acknowledge it, and others really don't care. I think about how in the rush to liberal progressiveness I see more commercials and social media interactions with black men that are portrayed as gay where I would straight black would be traditionally placed. Don't get me everyone should have a representation, but it seems like shenanigans are afoot with straight black males
    Last edited by dkrook; 04-23-2020 at 10:36 AM.

  5. #2960
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chesterfield View Post
    @taozen I definitely agree. T'Challa is one of the best fighters in the MU, let's see it!
    I want to see it too. I want to see more of how T'Challa trained and worked his entire life to be Black Panther instead of him getting by inheritance. We here Eric talk about his background how he went to MIT, Navy Seals and the CIA to prepare. I had friends who thought T'Challa did not have a chance because they did not see how T'Challa trained, studied and worked to be BP.

  6. #2961

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    Quote Originally Posted by taozen View Post
    ooohhhhhhh!!! Can of worms! I have had this same discussion with so many people. The emasculation of Black men is such a controversial topic.
    Which is puzzling to me. Wouldn't a straight black and, this is important, CAPABLE black man fit right in with these "woke" battles? But his exclusion is the one thing both sides (SJW and anti-SJW alike) can agree on. Probably why I take neither seriously.

  7. #2962
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ekie View Post
    Must have Missed that in my 5 viewings. Still he is a new King, that deserves some vetting (even if just for his newly introduced audience) . Those challenges better be raining in with all the failures
    From a movie perspective, having T'Challa beat up a bunch of guys no one knows or cares about to test him is unecessary. The M'Baku fight accomplishes that. Even if Coogler filmed a couple extra fights, thats the sort of thing that goes on the cutting room floor because it's really not necessarily to tell the story. One fight against an actual character people actually give a dam about gets the job done.

    That said, the fact that only M'Baku felt it was necessary to vet T'Challa tells you the level of confidence they have in him. WHen you're so good that you don't need to prove it because everyone knows how good you are, it's speaks of the type of guy he is. He simply didn't need to earn or prove something he already had. Showing T'Challa beat up a bunch of other nobodies might have been an additional opportunity to show how good a figher he is, but this shows how good he is in a different way.

    That said, it's possible that confidence could be shaken after the first BP movie and Infinity War. We'll see whether Coogler wants to incorporate any of that into his narrative, or simply move past it and tell whatever story he wants to tell.

  8. #2963
    Mighty Member dkrook's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    My dude... That's exactly what people are expecting. They go on about how T'Challa was straight up Terminator mode on CW, if ignoring that again, when your not the star of a movie and have a very limited screen time, it's easier to make a character look good without much else needing to be added. Again, that's why people liked Shuri and Mbaku so much, because they made an impact on the short time they had. But it's T'Challa who carries the movie.

    Another thing every one is conveniently forgetting is that what do Cap, IM, and Thor a have in common? A weak/ nearly non-existent supporting cast. Thors was so forgettable it changed every single movie, one of the warriors 3 was replaced and most people didn't even notice. T'Challas cast is easily the best ensemble in the MCU.

    As for your comparison to Caps presence in Avengers and CW... First CW was Caps movie so it's going to focus on him. Second the Avengers movies focused on Cap Tony and Thor as the big 3. On top of that T'Challa came into the Avengers mix at the end of the infinity saga as well as Marvel not realizing how big a impact BP was going to be. How is he going to get the same focus as Cap Thor and Tony when the last two Avengers movies were their swan song's? A better comparison will be going forward to see how big a presence he makes. The Nigerian set piece, the casino and car chase set piece and the final fight. The only time the border tribes were "oddly beating his ass" was for one scene.. AFTER he got launched, seemingly 100+ yards and still slams into a Boulder with enough force to turn someone's head into mush by a roided out rhino. And even then they weren't doing any real damage to him considering he blew then away without any issue. I truly have no idea where he looked bad at all in that fight. They only slightly get the upper hand very briefly, otherwise he is wrecking them.

    Also it's a thing to note your comparing T'Challa to cap when Cap has been in 3 solo movies and 4 Avengers movie's and saying that T'Challa is somehow inferior. Do it when they have been in the same amount of movies if you want to accurately compare evenly
    Props to your breakdown. My only concern is that he may not have the time to pad his resume. They already talking about Carol being the next top dog, which is head scratcher considering they know the swag T'challa is bringing in support.

  9. #2964
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    My dude... That's exactly what people are expecting. They go on about how T'Challa was straight up Terminator mode on CW, if ignoring that again, when your not the star of a movie and have a very limited screen time, it's easier to make a character look good without much else needing to be added. Again, that's why people liked Shuri and Mbaku so much, because they made an impact on the short time they had. But it's T'Challa who carries the movie.

    Another thing every one is conveniently forgetting is that what do Cap, IM, and Thor a have in common? A weak/ nearly non-existent supporting cast. Thors was so forgettable it changed every single movie, one of the warriors 3 was replaced and most people didn't even notice. T'Challas cast is easily the best ensemble in the MCU.

    As for your comparison to Caps presence in Avengers and CW... First CW was Caps movie so it's going to focus on him. Second the Avengers movies focused on Cap Tony and Thor as the big 3. On top of that T'Challa came into the Avengers mix at the end of the infinity saga as well as Marvel not realizing how big a impact BP was going to be. How is he going to get the same focus as Cap Thor and Tony when the last two Avengers movies were their swan song's? A better comparison will be going forward to see how big a presence he makes. The Nigerian set piece, the casino and car chase set piece and the final fight. The only time the border tribes were "oddly beating his ass" was for one scene.. AFTER he got launched, seemingly 100+ yards and still slams into a Boulder with enough force to turn someone's head into mush by a roided out rhino. And even then they weren't doing any real damage to him considering he blew then away without any issue. I truly have no idea where he looked bad at all in that fight. They only slightly get the upper hand very briefly, otherwise he is wrecking them.

    Also it's a thing to note your comparing T'Challa to cap when Cap has been in 3 solo movies and 4 Avengers movie's and saying that T'Challa is somehow inferior. Do it when they have been in the same amount of movies if you want to accurately compare evenly
    You can even ignore the combat scenes. T'Challa had a real story arc in CW. Two scenes that to were closest to BP from the comics were: 1. The park bench scene when he is talking to widow and the vehicle ride scene when makes his warrior to warrior statement.






    Those scenes were short but they were so strong. I actually wanted to see more of that T'Challa in the BP movie. Those characters seem so different. I know he was angry and wanted revenge but he is not out of control. He is quiet, precise, and intimidating. That is the most dangerous man in the world.

  10. #2965
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    Even this deleted scene show an example of BP being prepared and two step ahead of his opponent. He even tells Widow I know you are attempting to psychoanalyze me. I hope we get more of this BP in the future.


  11. #2966
    Mighty Member Ekie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    From a movie perspective, having T'Challa beat up a bunch of guys no one knows or cares about to test him is unecessary. The M'Baku fight accomplishes that. Even if Coogler filmed a couple extra fights, thats the sort of thing that goes on the cutting room floor because it's really not necessarily to tell the story. One fight against an actual character people actually give a dam about gets the job done.

    That said, the fact that only M'Baku felt it was necessary to vet T'Challa tells you the level of confidence they have in him. WHen you're so good that you don't need to prove it because everyone knows how good you are, it's speaks of the type of guy he is. He simply didn't need to earn or prove something he already had. Showing T'Challa beat up a bunch of other nobodies might have been an additional opportunity to show how good a figher he is, but this shows how good he is in a different way.

    That said, it's possible that confidence could be shaken after the first BP movie and Infinity War. We'll see whether Coogler wants to incorporate any of that into his narrative, or simply move past it and tell whatever story he wants to tell.
    Ask the fellow posters here gow they feel about Hickmans choice to skip showcasing the Black Dwarf fight as opposed to showing it even though it's not needed to advance the storyline.
    In comic and superhero movies it's important to show heros beating up bad guys and showcasing talents. Do you think Cap's elevator scene against a bunch of goons was not necessary either?

  12. #2967
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dkrook View Post
    Props to your breakdown. My only concern is that he may not have the time to pad his resume. They already talking about Carol being the next top dog, which is head scratcher considering they know the swag T'challa is bringing in support.
    According to the internet (take it with a grain of salt), Brie Larson signed a 7 picture deal with marvel. She's only appeared in two, so potentially she's a good long term investment for marvel.

    Boseman, at least according to the internet, only signed a 5 picture deal. If that hasn't changed (fingers crossed that it has), that would theoretically mean BP2 is his last movie. I'd obviously assume marvel will do everything in his power to get Bosement to do more movies... but it may not be up to them, and may have to plan accordingly.

  13. #2968
    Mighty Member dkrook's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ekie View Post
    Ask the fellow posters here gow they feel about Hickmans choice to skip showcasing the Black Dwarf fight as opposed to showing it even though it's not needed to advance the storyline.
    In comic and superhero movies it's important to show heros beating up bad guys and showcasing talents. Do you think Cap's elevator scene against a bunch of goons was not necessary either?
    ALL OF THIS...^ Those things matter!

  14. #2969
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ekie View Post
    Ask the fellow posters here gow they feel about Hickmans choice to skip showcasing the Black Dwarf fight as opposed to showing it even though it's not needed to advance the storyline.
    In comic and superhero movies it's important to show heros beating up bad guys and showcasing talents. Do you think Cap's elevator scene against a bunch of goons was not necessary either?
    Did you miss the fight scene with M'Baku? The movie DID show T'Challa fighting to earn his postion as king. They just didn't bother showing him fight an additional 3-4 other no name guys to accomplish what a single fight with M'Baku could. Caps elevator scene was cool... but having an additional 3-4 elevator scenes doing the exact same thing would have been pretty redundent.

  15. #2970
    Astonishing Member Blind Wedjat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by taozen View Post
    Eric's idea was I am going to give all the oppressed African people these highly advanced weapons so that they can overthrow their oppressors. So that they can no longer be discriminated against. So they can no longer be killed, jailed, starved all over they world. That was part of his anger towards Wakanda is that they did nothing. Even Coogler in an interview stated he would feel anger towards Wakanda if it was in the real world. That is why so many people resonated with Killmonger's plan. They felt the pain he felt. And T'Challa's plan was to create outreach centers? Would it not been a stronger statement to not only have these outreach centers but during the press conference make a statement that if governments around the world continue to oppress these disadvantaged people, Wakanda would be there to defend them? Also after the movie I saw so many memes and shirt with "Killmonger was right." Funny I did not see a single meme or shirt stating that T'Challa was right. That is why is said if you look at the structure of the movie, it was so much of a Killmonger origin story.
    It being an origin story for Killmonger as well (which is was) DOES NOT make it a lesser film. And it's not meant to take points from T'Challa. It's trying to show you everything he could have been but isn't.

    It's also not my fault or the film's fault if a bunch of people couldn't recognise that Killmonger's idea was a bunch of nonsense, despite how appealing it sounds. Coogler has said before that he identified with Killmonger because both of them have lived the African-American experience, but Coogler is not an angry man-child that wants to kill everyone to mask his own pain. That's what Killmonger is, and that's why he's the villain of the film. Despite the fact that he has good intentions in wanting to liberate oppressed black people, doing so through violent retribution will do more harm than good. How many black lives will be lost in the process? How many black families will be seperated? Killmonger didn't even give a shit about maintaining a legacy when he burned down the Garden of the Heart-Shaped Herb. He wanted everything to burn. He's a little boy pretending to be a revolutionary. The film literally shows you this. Is that the kind of leader, the kind of inspiration that black people even deserve?

    Yes, Coogler said he would have been angry if a Wakanda did exist. He's not the first fan of the source material of even the first Black Panther creator to have something to say about it. It's a legit question. However, why does he not have T'Challa arrive at the same conclusion as Killmonger? Why does he write T'Challa to instead see that oppressed people deserve social outreach and the ability to learn the sciences? It's because he knows Killmonger was wrong and violence doesn't solve anything. Like, you do realise Coogler is also a counselor for incarcerated youth and a human rights activist as well? There's a reason why he wrote T'Challa to come to that conclusion. You talk about outreach centres as if they're some kind of useless thing.

    Lastly the "Killmonger was right" thing is mostly a meme. The same way "Thanos was right" and r/thanosdidnothingwrong is. If anyone genuinely believes killing half of all life will solve the global economic crisis is a eugenic, and eugenics are usually racist. Likewise, anyone that thinks Killmonger was right clearly missed the point and the message of the film, and may have things they need to address.

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