Black Panther Appreciation 2020

[chief12d]

Thats too bad Red Jack. I would have loved to see the direction you chose to go in

As for Namor V Tchalla in the MCU, i wouldn't put it past them to showcased Tchalla failing a second time and being saved by surrounding cast. Namor Ofcourse will have a strong first showing which doesn't have to mean Tchalla needs a weak done. Both can be done as with Cap 2 and Bucky.

I don’t think Coogler thinks so lowly of T’Challa that he would have him fail just so Okoye and Shuri can save him. Wakanda’s dealt with a civil war and alien invasion back to back so I’m expecting the next film to be all about projecting Wakandan power overseas and how those in Wakanda respond. If Namor plays a role I don’t think it’ll be based around directly invading Wakanda but more contesting their global influence and skirmishes.

[XPac]

It always confused me why Namor was allowed to live at the end of Secret Wars. T’Challa really was screwed over out of a well earned victory especially when you consider how Namor just ended up getting killed in an irrelevant team book. He didn’t even have to stay dead for long, T’Challa should’ve just taken the W and the closure that comes with killing an unrepentant murderer of his people.

Comic fans accepted it (loved it in fact), but like Redjack said movie goers aren’t going to look favorably on T’Challa for not getting justice on Namor if he were to flood the Golden City. This is why I strongly doubt they’re gonna go in that direction. It’s very damaging for his character as Marvel’s new cash cow and isn’t worth doing it to prop up what will likely be a secondary character at best in the MCU. Namor won’t get a solo movie and with Aquaman already off the ground I doubt their gonna build him up too much. There’s no point chumping out T’Challa in his own movie just to establish the Atlantean threat.

It's not that different from BP not killing Zemo in the MCU Civil War or Klaw in the first BP movie... for most heroes thats simply not what they do. Even when it is arguably justified. There are exceptions of course.... but for the most part the moral of the story is to NOT go around killing people out of vengeance.

Beyond that, the only way to end this and bring actual closure is for the two to resolve their problems... not try and continue to murder each other. Yes, T'Challa can try and kill Namor then Namor can try and kill him, etc etc. Eventually they simply have to choose to resolve their issues and move past it. Both already have their kingdoms destroyed over a conflict which by this point was completely unecessary. They are well past the point where anything is gained by continuing the conflict. At this point it would be comflict simply for the sake of conflict, which doesn't do anyone any good.

[chief12d]

It's not that different from BP not killing Zemo in the MCU Civil War or Klaw in the first BP movie... for most heroes thats simply not what they do. Even when it is arguably justified. There are exceptions of course.... but for the most part the moral of the story is to NOT go around killing people out of vengeance.

Beyond that, the only way to end this and bring actual closure is for the two to resolve their problems... not try and continue to murder each other. Yes, T'Challa can try and kill Namor then Namor can try and kill him, etc etc. Eventually they simply have to choose to resolve their issues and move past it. Both already have their kingdoms destroyed over a conflict which by this point was completely unecessary. They are well past the point where anything is gained by continuing the conflict. At this point it would be comflict simply for the sake of conflict, which doesn't do anyone any good.

There’s a huge difference between not killing a man responsible for the death of another man and not killing a man who kills tens of thousands of innocents, including children. Namor launched the equivalent of a WMD on civilians so I think it’s fair to say he shouldn’t be held to the same standard as Zemo who’s a petty terrorist at worst. In one circumstance it’s poignant commentary on personal vengeance, in another it’s allowing attempted genocide to go unpunished for the sake of plot. Even if we’re not talking death, Namor should have at least been taken into Wakandan custody, which is what they coincidentally tried to do first with his generals.

Namor dying and coming back to life could’ve opened the way to closure for both of them. T’Challa avenges his slaughtered people, Namor realizes he was foolish in attacking Wakanda and they can move forward in a tenuous peace. By the time the universe was reborn they’d already destroyed each other’s kingdoms anyway so with Namor paying for his objectively horrific crimes there’s no need to continue the conflict. T’Challa getting his retribution doesn’t prevent closure for either character.

[XPac]

There’s a huge difference between not killing a man responsible for the death of another man and not killing a man who kills tens of thousands of innocents, including children. Namor launched the equivalent of a WMD on civilians so I think it’s fair to say he shouldn’t be held to the same standard as Zemo who’s a petty terrorist at worst. In one circumstance it’s poignant commentary on personal vengeance, in another it’s allowing attempted genocide to go unpunished for the sake of plot. Even if we’re not talking death, Namor should have at least been taken into Wakandan custody, which is what they coincidentally tried to do first with his generals.

Namor dying and coming back to life could’ve opened the way to closure for both of them. T’Challa avenges his slaughtered people, Namor realizes he was foolish in attacking Wakanda and they can move forward in a tenuous peace. By the time the universe is reborn they’d already destroyed each other’s kingdoms so with Namor paying for his objectively horrific crimes there’s no need to continue the conflict. T’Challa getting his retribution doesn’t prevent closure for either character.

You can make an arguement that what Zemo did was worse... Namor killed more people. A LOT more. Course, you can also argue Namor being possessed by the Phoenix gives him more of a pass than Zemo. In comics, that's a sort of universal free pass. Both arguements are valid. But I think the point being no one should be THAT surprised that he didn't kill either. Even if both were justified.

And yes, they could have had T'Challa decide to kill Namor rather than have both heroes decide to put aside their differences to work together to serve the greater good. But I think there's a reason we got the later instead of the former. That's frankly what heroes USUALLY do. They put aside their differences and work together rather than kill each other. Because at the end of the day, the bigger picture was more important than dealing with their personal vedetta. T'Challa did that in his previous attempt at revenge, and that was a costly mistake. I think it's to his credit that he opted to put their issues aside and work together for the greater good. Heroes were looking pretty bad throughout Hickmans story... I think they needed to start acting like heroes again by the end of it.

[FLEX HECTIC]

Black Panther in... You Kids Get Off My Lawn!


Wakanda.

The greater Border Tribe area.

Due to W'kabi's actions the Border Tribe is left leaderless allowing all types of shenanigans at the border of Wakanda.

T'challa: "Are you sure it is just the two of them and not their armies!"

Okoye: "Yes, it's just them... Should I accompany you?"

T'challa: "I'll handle this personally but stick around out of sight in case this goes south."

T'challa slowly and cautiously approached two men throwing mad haymakers at each other vehemently.

BOOM... BIFF... SLAP... WHACK...

Namor: "Atlantis fool what!"

Doom: "Latveria all day every day naive!"

T'challa: "Do I even want to know why you two are squabbling here in Wakanda?"

The two combatants pause their rivalry and quickly compose themselves.

Doom: "AHEM... Greetings King T'challa I am..."

T'challa: "I know who you both are so why are you here about to disrupt years worth of diplomatic relations?"

Namor: "See what had happened was..."

T'challa: "Nevermind!"

T'challa pulls out a Kimoyo bead and makes an emergency call.

Burbank.

Mickey "Money" Mouse: "T'chadwick wassup!"

T'challa: "Mickey... NO!!!"

Mickey "Money" Mouse: "I assume by your tone that they both have arrived."

T'challa: "Not happening!"

Mickey "Money" Mouse: "Just hear me out... I mean, we at Disney have to recoup all that quarantine money and Wakanda is just the place to do that."

T'challa: "We talked about this... You still haven't fleshed out my own rogues gallery and now you stick me with these two."

Mickey "Money" Mouse: "Can you imagine the potential for a two billion dollar movie with two of the most iconic characters in Marvel history."

T'challa: "Look, I'm not down for any more pyrrhic victories where I give Mandela type speeches... I will for real kill these two N!&&@$ right here and right now!"

Mickey "Money" Mouse: "N!&&@$... WOW! look at how they bring the passion out of you I smell Academy Award in your future son ride with it."

T'challa: "I'm listening give me the synopsis and make it quick."

Mickey "Money" Mouse: "It's just a general rough draft but follow me... The Thanos snap left cosmic energy in Wakanda that attracts the Fantastic Four who might be played by John Krasinky and his wife Emily Blunt but you didn't hear that from me though HA HA... So anywho, Dr Doom also comes along for the ride and one thing leads to another and..."

T'challa: "And Namor..."

Mickey "Money" Mouse: "Remember that Endgame Easter egg Okoye made about that underwater earthquake... So after the flood in Wakanda..."

T'challa: "FLOOD!!!!"

Mickey "Money" Mouse: "C'mon, how long has it been since a movie did a cgi tsunami the special effects departments love that sort of thing... Besides only a few Wakandans drown so whats's the big deal!"

T'challa: "We just put this place back in order after the five year absence of those snapped away which included myself!"

Mickey "Money" Mouse: "Dude, think about how epic it will be having Wakanda fight a war on two fronts... This time you get some payback in a big way I pinky swear."

T'challa: "You better not be playing me."

Mickey "Money" Mouse: "For now just go over some lines with those two and build chemistry with a table read and it will all work out I promise."

T'challa disgusted hangs up on Mickey...

T'challa: "Are you two hungry we are having a BBQ at the Water Tribe to celebrate my upcoming wedding."

Doom: "BAH, Doom hates soul food!"

Namor: "I prefer seafood if you don't mind."

Wolverine: "Got any beer bub?"

Storm: "Hello beloved."

T'challa; "FRAKKING MICKEY!"

Burbank.

Mickey "Money" Mouse: "I feel like I'm forgetting to tell him something... UHM!!!"

[chief12d]

You can make an arguement that what Zemo did was worse... Namor killed more people. A LOT more. Course, you can also argue Namor being possessed by the Phoenix gives him more of a pass than Zemo. In comics, that's a sort of universal free pass. Both arguements are valid. But I think the point being no one should be THAT surprised that he didn't kill either. Even if both were justified.

And yes, they could have had T'Challa decide to kill Namor rather than have both heroes decide to put aside their differences to work together to serve the greater good. But I think there's a reason we got the later instead of the former. That's frankly what heroes USUALLY do. They put aside their differences and work together rather than kill each other. Because at the end of the day, the bigger picture was more important than dealing with their personal vedetta. T'Challa did that in his previous attempt at revenge, and that was a costly mistake. I think it's to his credit that he opted to put their issues aside and work together for the greater good. Heroes were looking pretty bad throughout Hickmans story... I think they needed to start acting like heroes again by the end of it.

Namor being possessed by the Phoenix Force is immaterial when accounting for the fact he showed absolutely no remorse for his actions. After revealing he sent the Black Order to Wakanda he even claimed he wished he’d been able to kill more Wakandans, which shows pretty clear genocidal intent on his part. Zemo wanted personal vengeance but Namor wanted the extermination of Wakanda itself which makes both his actions and intent inherently worse.

I meant T’Challa should’ve killed Namor when they were blowing up that alternate Earth, when both their kingdoms had been already been destroyed and their relationship was less tense. I wasn’t opposed to them working through their issues up until that and coming to respect one another like they had before Hickman, T’Challa should’ve just gotten the final punch to truly bring the conflict to an end. At that point all the blood that had been shed would’ve been paid back and they could go back to their status quo when the universe was reborn and Namor came back. I also commend T’Challa for working through the political circumstances for the sake of the multiverse, but it reflects poorly on him to not have truly completed his other goal, which was getting justice for Wakanda. There was a way for him to be a hero, kill Namor, and put an end to their rivalry but that’s not what we got, at least in a satisfactory way imo.

[XPac]

Namor being possessed by the Phoenix Force is immaterial when accounting for the fact he showed absolutely no remorse for his actions. After revealing he sent the Black Order to Wakanda he even claimed he wished he’d been able to kill more Wakandans, which shows pretty clear genocidal intent on his part. Zemo wanted personal vengeance but Namor wanted the extermination of Wakanda itself which makes both his actions and intent inherently worse.

I meant T’Challa should’ve killed Namor when they were blowing up that alternate Earth, when both their kingdoms had been already been destroyed and their relationship was less tense. I wasn’t opposed to them working through their issues and coming to respect one another like they had before Hickman, T’Challa should’ve just gotten the final punch to truly bring the conflict to an end. At that point all the blood that had been shed would’ve been paid back and they could go back to their status quo when the universe was reborn and Namor came back. I also commend T’Challa for working through the political circumstances for the sake of the multiverse, but it reflects poorly on him to not have truly completed his other goal, which was getting justice for Wakanda. There was a way for him to be a hero, kill Namor, and put an end to their rivalry but that’s not what we got, at least in a satisfactory way imo.

That's what he claimed to T'Challa. I personally got a different read when Hope confronted him about what he did. I don't think Namor was in as much control as he he indicated to T'Challa, and I think Namor would soon allow people to think he was a mass murderer than he was out of control. To MOST people at least. Again, just my interpretation.

avx-zone-008v8fd3.jpg

If marvel wanted to actually make Namor a villain, I would agree with the interpretation that he wanted to exterminate Wakanda. Given he was used as a hero even afterwards, I'm more inclined to think the blame is supposed to mostly go to the possession.

[Redjack]

It's not that different from BP not killing Zemo in the MCU Civil War or Klaw in the first BP movie... for most heroes thats simply not what they do. Even when it is arguably justified. There are exceptions of course.... but for the most part the moral of the story is to NOT go around killing people out of vengeance.

Beyond that, the only way to end this and bring actual closure is for the two to resolve their problems... not try and continue to murder each other. Yes, T'Challa can try and kill Namor then Namor can try and kill him, etc etc. Eventually they simply have to choose to resolve their issues and move past it. Both already have their kingdoms destroyed over a conflict which by this point was completely unecessary. They are well past the point where anything is gained by continuing the conflict. At this point it would be comflict simply for the sake of conflict, which doesn't do anyone any good.

All true. Which is why it never made a lick of editorial or storytelling sense to have it happen in the first place. Namor murdered THOUSANDS of Wakandans; there's no walking that back. THere's no forgiving that or "settling our differences." Thousands of Wakandans were killed. Not just killed. Murdered. And Marvel played the "possession" of the Phoenix Five as being fully the responsibility of each of them. Cuyclops, especially, paid a heavy price. Namor is fully responsible for his actions, not the Phoenix Force.

So he has to die or T'Challa is weak.

They can't keep going back and forth at each other or, again, T'Challa is weak.

T'Challa can't retaliate against Atlantis because it wasn't an act of country-to-country war. Regular Atlanteans have zero culpability for Namor's actions. If Wakqnda goes after them, T'Challa is a monster. So, he can't.

All of this was about weakening Black Panther/Wakanda and elevating Namor. Unnecessarily, I might add, as literally no one was screaming for these two to come into conflict at all. No one. Now the the conflict exists, there's no clean way to resolve it that leaves Namor alive.

But Namor can't die because he's a core Marvel character who predates Black Panther by decades. Namor ain't going nowhere.

It was just a stupid move. Creatively ugly.

Up to me, I'd just erase the whole thing from continuity.

[chief12d]

That's what he claimed to T'Challa. I personally got a different read when Hope confronted him about what he did. I don't think Namor was in as much control as he he indicated to T'Challa, and I think Namor would soon allow people to think he was a mass murderer than he was out of control. To MOST people at least. Again, just my interpretation.

avx-zone-008v8fd3.jpg

If marvel wanted to actually make Namor a villain, I would agree with the interpretation that he wanted to exterminate Wakanda. Given he was used as a hero even afterwards, I'm more inclined to think the blame is supposed to mostly go to the possession.

I disagree, despite the best efforts of some writers it’s generally understood both in and out of universe that the Phoenix Force heightens preexisting character flaws, which in Namor’s case is his aggression. It’s perfectly fine to argue he wasn’t in complete control but a piece of him wanted to do what he did. Only partially deciding to kill tens of thousands of people is worse than committing a terrorist act that kills a dozen. So in my book Namor still had worse intent and actions.

And if he’d rather lie and act like he wanted to be genocidal maniac rather than admit he couldn’t handle the Phoenix Force it makes his actions even more reprehensible. It only escalated tensions and resulted in even more death than Zemo caused, as if he’d shown remorse and subjected himself to Wakandan justice its highly unlikely Wakanda would’ve continued hostilities. This would’ve prevented both kingdoms from getting razed in the long run. So on top of having murderous thoughts, he refused to admit how the Phoenix Force multiplied them, and thus provoked a war.

[XPac]

I disagree, despite the best efforts of some writers it’s generally understood both in and out of universe that the Phoenix Force heightens preexisting character flaws, which in Namor’s case is his aggression. It’s perfectly fine to argue he wasn’t in complete control but a piece of him wanted to do what he did. Only partially deciding to kill tens of thousands of people is worse than committing a terrorist act that kills a dozen. So in my book Namor still had worse intent and actions.

And if he’d rather lie and act like he wanted to be genocidal maniac rather than admit he couldn’t handle the Phoenix Force it makes his actions even more reprehensible. It only escalated tensions and resulted in even more death than Zemo caused, as if he’d shown remorse and subjected himself to Wakandan justice its highly unlikely Wakanda would’ve continued hostilities. This would’ve prevented both kingdoms from getting razed in the long run. So on top of having murderous thoughts, he refused to admit how the Phoenix Force multiplied them, and thus provoked a war.

Accountability when one is possessed by the Phoenix can admittedly be a very murky subject... and that is especially true when the subject is Namor, who frankly can be argued is a mass murderer even when he's not possessed by the Phoenix.

When Jean first became Dark Phoenix, she murdered the planet of the Brocolli people. An entire planet was murdered. And when Scott was possessed, he was planning on destroying all of humanity. He didn't suceed, unlike Jean and Namor... but that was the plan. In both the case of Jean and Scott, I think it's fair to give them the benefit of the doubt and blame it on Phoenix. But Namor on a given day can flood the surface world completely on his own so it's difficult to say where Namor ends and the Phoenix starts. Difficult to the point where I'm not sure he can fairly be held accountable simply because we'll never know for sure.

But I think at the end of the day, marvel wasn't planning on making Namor a villain so in all likelihood that was more Phoenix than Namor. If the idea was to turn him into an actual villain I'd agree with you... but as the plan seems to have him still be a hero afterwards, I'm doubtful the idea was that was all Namor. Again, just my interpretation.

And yes, Namor surrendering himself to justice would have been the right thing to do. Though I suspect if Namor was going to surrender himself it would be to Steve rather than T'Challa simply because he likely wouldn't feel like being executed anytime soon. But as so often happens in the comic book world, things turned out the way they needed to turn out. Namor was needed in the Illuminati since he was the ONLY person willing to actually do what needed to be done. Had Namor taken himself off the board, Wakanda and Atlantis might have been sparred a war but the 616 universe probably would have been destroyed in an incursion. So in the grand scheme of things, things worked out for the best. Comic book characters are lucky that way.

[Vordan]

All true. Which is why it never made a lick of editorial or storytelling sense to have it happen in the first place. Namor murdered THOUSANDS of Wakandans; there's no walking that back. THere's no forgiving that or "settling our differences." Thousands of Wakandans were killed. Not just killed. Murdered. And Marvel played the "possession" of the Phoenix Five as being fully the responsibility of each of them. Cuyclops, especially, paid a heavy price. Namor is fully responsible for his actions, not the Phoenix Force.

So he has to die or T'Challa is weak.

They can't keep going back and forth at each other or, again, T'Challa is weak.

T'Challa can't retaliate against Atlantis because it wasn't an act of country-to-country war. Regular Atlanteans have zero culpability for Namor's actions. If Wakqnda goes after them, T'Challa is a monster. So, he can't.

All of this was about weakening Black Panther/Wakanda and elevating Namor. Unnecessarily, I might add, as literally no one was screaming for these two to come into conflict at all. No one. Now the the conflict exists, there's no clean way to resolve it that leaves Namor alive.

But Namor can't die because he's a core Marvel character who predates Black Panther by decades. Namor ain't going nowhere.

It was just a stupid move. Creatively ugly.

Up to me, I'd just erase the whole thing from continuity.

Hickman gave them a golden opportunity to do just that with Secret Wars. I wish they had taken it.

[XPac]

All true. Which is why it never made a lick of editorial or storytelling sense to have it happen in the first place. Namor murdered THOUSANDS of Wakandans; there's no walking that back. THere's no forgiving that or "settling our differences." Thousands of Wakandans were killed. Not just killed. Murdered. And Marvel played the "possession" of the Phoenix Five as being fully the responsibility of each of them. Cuyclops, especially, paid a heavy price. Namor is fully responsible for his actions, not the Phoenix Force.

So he has to die or T'Challa is weak.

They can't keep going back and forth at each other or, again, T'Challa is weak.

T'Challa can't retaliate against Atlantis because it wasn't an act of country-to-country war. Regular Atlanteans have zero culpability for Namor's actions. If Wakqnda goes after them, T'Challa is a monster. So, he can't.

All of this was about weakening Black Panther/Wakanda and elevating Namor. Unnecessarily, I might add, as literally no one was screaming for these two to come into conflict at all. No one. Now the the conflict exists, there's no clean way to resolve it that leaves Namor alive.

But Namor can't die because he's a core Marvel character who predates Black Panther by decades. Namor ain't going nowhere.

It was just a stupid move. Creatively ugly.

Up to me, I'd just erase the whole thing from continuity.

Namor day 1 flooded New York, which in theory could have murdered more people than AvX. And I think literally a week and a half later, he joined the Invaders. The marvel universe is surprisingly forgiving over flooding for whatever reason.

But Shuri (not T'Challa) did in fact retaliate against Atlantis. After Atlantis proposed a peace treaty, Wakanda basically destroyed Atlantis while Namor was away. Which isn't entirely unfair since the Atlantean army did accompany Namor in his attack on Wakanda (which was stupid since he didn't need them at all... if anything they were likely in the way). So a bunch of nameless people were killed to avenge the deaths of a bunch of other nameless people. That's probably as much retribution as you can ask for given the circumstances.

[XPac]

Hickman gave them a golden opportunity to do just that with Secret Wars. I wish they had taken it.

WHen you had entire books based on the aftermath of Secret Wars, like Squadron Supreme and Ultimates, that became an impossibility.

But in the least, there are consequences. Wakanda destroys Atlantis for AvX, and Atlantis is again destroyed in Squadron Supreme when Namor destroyed the Great Societys earth (though in that instance you can argue Namor did what was necessary).

[FLEX HECTIC]

So what Redjack of Spades is saying is if Namor did what he did to Wakanda then War Dogs do this to him...





Any questions...

[Will Evans]

What would you guys say is Black Panther’s rogues gallery? One example I’ve seen:

Ulysses Klaw, Erik Killmonger, Man-Ape, Baron Macabre, King Cadaver, Kiber the Cruel, Madame Slay, Salamander K'ruel, Princess Zanda, Malice, Lord Karnaj, Sombre, Tetu, Zenzi, Reverend Achebe, Sons of the Serpent, Colonel Fritz Klaue

I’d say White Wolf, but he is more an antagonist than a rogue.

There’s also Hate-Monger and the American Panther.