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  1. #3631
    Astonishing Member Cville's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    It's been awhile since I read that story. Do it was god energy that allowed him to shrug off the tech? That goes back to my point in my post, thee needs to be a damn good explanation. That is a good explanation then.

    What's not a good explanation, it's Coates entire series where a dozen goons almost defeated Wakanda because reasons, same with adversary, same with the intergalactic Wakanda. No explanation other then plot demands it
    Yeah, he absorbed the totem energy of the people who summoned him, then killed M'Baku the same way. He was surrounded by a blue energy aura when fighting Wakandan tech.

  2. #3632
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    No Thanos didn't defeat Wakanda decisively. He lost the first two times. It took him 3 tries and the only reason he was successful the third time was because of betrayal.

    Abd you seem to be misusing the term a match for anything. Redjack showed it the best in the last Avenger. Wakandan tech was a match for the avengers. TChalla still had to work for his wins but his tech was able to handle anything thrown at him. It's not a catch all while TChalla sips mimosa's, but The most technologically advanced nation on earth should mean something
    The second time, Thanos only lost because of Thane. Wakanda had nothing to do with his defeat. Without Thane, Thanos conquered Wakanda... and there's no shame in that as it's freaking Thanos. The guy basically makes a living out of becoming the most powerful being in the universe. Only guy who arguably tops him in feats is Doom. Arguably.

    And being the most technological advanced nation does mean something... it means that they are difficult to defeat. When bad guys are are able to pull it off, they accomplished something very impressive. Which is sort of why we see it happen in books... it's a way to build up the threat. When Hydra or the Cabal are able to beat Wakanda, you know the heroes are screwed. Being advanced makes them powerful... just not unbeatable. It can handle a lot... though not literally everything thats ever been thrown at it. Because nothing in comics ever has or ever will be written that way.

  3. #3633
    Astonishing Member Cville's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    The second time, Thanos only lost because of Thane. Wakanda had nothing to do with his defeat. Without Thane, Thanos conquered Wakanda... and there's no shame in that as it's freaking Thanos. The guy basically makes a living out of becoming the most powerful being in the universe. Only guy who arguably tops him in feats is Doom. Arguably.

    And being the most technological advanced nation does mean something... it means that they are difficult to defeat. When bad guys are are able to pull it off, they accomplished something very impressive. Which is sort of why we see it happen in books... it's a way to build up the threat. When Hydra or the Cabal are able to beat Wakanda, you know the heroes are screwed. Being advanced makes them powerful... just not unbeatable. It can handle a lot... though not literally everything thats ever been thrown at it. Because nothing in comics ever has or ever will be written that way.
    Thane and Thanos were in Eastern Europe or Asia because that's where Thane was living? Shuri and company stopped the invasion at great costs, but they won.

  4. #3634
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cville View Post
    Thane and Thanos were in Eastern Europe or Asia because that's where Thane was living? Shuri and company stopped the invasion at great costs, but they won.
    Thanos was in Necropolis when Thane beat him at the end of Infinity. And yes, they were able stop the Invasion but it was Thane that stopped Thanos himself (with the Avengers stopping the Black Order). Without Thane and the Avengers, Thanos proved too much for Wakanda. Again, it's freaking Thanos... no shame in that.

  5. #3635
    Mighty Member Redjack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by butterflykyss View Post
    If his Wakandan tech was as mighty as you and others would like to claim why didnt he use it to end Moon Knight and his goons as soon as he appeared on the wakandan doorsteps? It's a pretty easy question to understand but maybe not.
    no idea. i'm not keeping up with the book. I checked out when the rape camps arrived and haven't been back.




    it didn't help him really during doomwar against doom. he had to work heroes, with his resources to win.
    One of the reasons I'll never be allowed to write this series is I would erase Doom War from continuity, along with a host of other things. Too many people sacrificed story and character to "break Wakanda."

    Wakanda doesn't break. That's the point of Wakanda. Not only is it the most advanced society in human history, it is, by definition, the most SELF-RELIANT. If Wakanda can't solve something, it can't be solved. Jason Aaron got it right. Everyone who brings war to Wakanda gets sent home in a body bag with a message in their own blood, "THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU TRY US."

    That includes EVERYONE. Full stop. The only thing that could break Wakanda would be something from INSIDE. And not the sort of strife that plagues the rest of Africa. Wakanda is, by definition, untouched by all of that.

    But I've said too much.

  6. #3636
    Astonishing Member Cville's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Thanos was in Necropolis when Thane beat him at the end of Infinity. And yes, they were able stop the Invasion but it was Thane that stopped Thanos himself (with the Avengers stopping the Black Order). Without Thane and the Avengers, Thanos proved too much for Wakanda. Again, it's freaking Thanos... no shame in that.
    He wasn't. It was Super Giant and foot soilders. Thanos was fighting an Inhuman city called Orollan

  7. #3637
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redjack View Post
    no idea. i'm not keeping up with the book. I checked out when the rape camps arrived and haven't been back.






    One of the reasons I'll never be allowed to write this series is I would erase Doom War from continuity, along with a host of other things. Too many people sacrificed story and character to "break Wakanda."

    Wakanda doesn't break. That's the point of Wakanda. Not only is it the most advanced society in human history, it is, by definition, the most SELF-RELIANT. If Wakanda can't solve something, it can't be solved. Jason Aaron got it right. Everyone who brings war to Wakanda gets sent home in a body bag with a message in their own blood, "THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU TRY US."

    That includes EVERYONE. Full stop. The only thing that could break Wakanda would be something from INSIDE. And not the sort of strife that plagues the rest of Africa. Wakanda is, by definition, untouched by all of that.

    But I've said too much.
    The thing is Wakanda doesn't exist in a void... it's a shared universe. So even if a specific BP writer decides to not have Wakanda beaten in the BP book, it doesn't mean it won't necessarily happen in a company wide event like Secret Empire or Time Runs Out.

    There are times in history where the entire planet earth was conquered one way or the other. Doom has done it twice. These sort of things can happen in comics, especially in larger events. The individual writer of the BP book I would presume only has control over what happens to Wakanda in his own book (though you obviously would have a better idea of how that works than me).

    I do think people honored the whole "never been conquered" thing to some degree until Doom War. But once it was "conquered," it sort of became fair game for any writer who needed it in their story.

  8. #3638
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cville View Post
    He wasn't. It was Super Giant and foot soilders. Thanos was fighting an Inhuman city called Orollan
    I might be remembering it wrong... but either way I think the point is that Wakanda never had to actually defeat Thanos up to that point. When THanos was in the equation and THane and the Avengers weren't, we got a very different outcome.

  9. #3639
    Mighty Member Redjack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    The thing is Wakanda doesn't exist in a void... it's a shared universe. So even if a specific BP writer decides to not have Wakanda beaten in the BP book, it doesn't mean it won't necessarily happen in a company wide event like Secret Empire or Time Runs Out.

    There are times in history where the entire planet earth was conquered one way or the other. Doom has done it twice. These sort of things can happen in comics, especially in larger events. The individual writer of the BP book I would presume only has control over what happens to Wakanda in his own book (though you obviously would have a better idea of how that works than me).

    I do think people honored the whole "never been conquered" thing to some degree until Doom War. But once it was "conquered," it sort of became fair game for any writer who needed it in their story.
    every time it happened was an example of poor writing and/or poor editorial oversight.

    Take DOOMWAR.

    Doom sees a threat that must be eliminated. He attacks. He wins. This makes him superior, even if the ultimate outcome of the story is his defeat.

    Instead, what Doom should have done, as a clever villain who's trying to win, was assume he couldn't task Wakanda vis direct means and come up with a way to REMOVE THE THREAT anyway. What might he have have schemed to do to neutralize Wakanda without "defeating it?" I can think of six ways right now. All interesting. All visually stimulating. None involving the decimation of Wakanda.

    The undefeated nation never existed now. No kid will ever enter the MU to find an unconquered African utopia. To me, that's a foul ball. If you're not clever enough to think a bit like Reed Richards, IOW, don't write the Fantastic Four. Same for T'Challa.

  10. #3640
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redjack View Post
    every time it happened was an example of poor writing and/or poor editorial oversight.

    Take DOOMWAR.

    Doom sees a threat that must be eliminated. He attacks. He wins. This makes him superior, even if the ultimate outcome of the story is his defeat.

    Instead, what Doom should have done, as a clever villain who's trying to win, was assume he couldn't task Wakanda vis direct means and come up with a way to REMOVE THE THREAT anyway. What might he have have schemed to do to neutralize Wakanda without "defeating it?" I can think of six ways right now. All interesting. All visually stimulating. None involving the decimation of Wakanda.

    The undefeated nation never existed now. No kid will ever enter the MU to find an unconquered African utopia. To me, that's a foul ball. If you're not clever enough to think a bit like Reed Richards, IOW, don't write the Fantastic Four. Same for T'Challa.
    I don't think the idea is necessarily that writers aren't clever enough to never have Wakanda be conquered so much as I don't think every writer necessarily wants it to be. Some writers want to tell stories where the bad guys kick the good guys butts. In the end the heroes win of course... but that doesn't mean the good guys on occasion don't get beat leading up to that point. Which isn't to say that it's something EVERY writer wants to do... but it's not shocking that it'll happen.

    In SOME instances you can argue it's bad writing. But when you're dealing with stuff like the Phoenix or Thanos, it's not necessarily bad writing ti simply say they're that powerful. WHen you deal with beings capable of destroying entire planets, they have a legit shot. Which isn't to say that Wakanda can't in theory overcome them... but I don't think against someone like Thanos you can ever say victory is a given. Far from it. A Doom or a Thanos both have a track record justifying them capable of overcoming anyone or anything. That's part of the reason why they're 2 of the only villains people actually take seriously anymore... they can actually win.

  11. #3641
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    I don't think the idea is necessarily that writers aren't clever enough to never have Wakanda be conquered so much as I don't think every writer necessarily wants it to be. Some writers want to tell stories where the bad guys kick the good guys butts. In the end the heroes win of course... but that doesn't mean the good guys on occasion don't get beat leading up to that point. Which isn't to say that it's something EVERY writer wants to do... but it's not shocking that it'll happen.

    In SOME instances you can argue it's bad writing. But when you're dealing with stuff like the Phoenix or Thanos, it's not necessarily bad writing ti simply say they're that powerful. WHen you deal with beings capable of destroying entire planets, they have a legit shot. Which isn't to say that Wakanda can't in theory overcome them... but I don't think against someone like Thanos you can ever say victory is a given. Far from it. A Doom or a Thanos both have a track record justifying them capable of overcoming anyone or anything. That's part of the reason why they're 2 of the only villains people actually take seriously anymore... they can actually win.
    Well, yes, but you're missing the greater significance here. Wakanda isn't just any fictional nation, it is a fictional nation that has come to represent the hopes and dreams and aspirations of the real-life African diaspora, so for (mostly white) editors to let that be trampled and sullied for the sake of "realism" or "bringing things down to Earth" is a brutal kick in the teeth --- and yes, a sign that they lack imagination.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  12. #3642
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Well, yes, but you're missing the greater significance here. Wakanda isn't just any fictional nation, it is a fictional nation that has come to represent the hopes and dreams and aspirations of the real-life African diaspora, so for (mostly white) editors to let that be trampled and sullied for the sake of "realism" or "bringing things down to Earth" is a brutal kick in the teeth --- and yes, a sign that they lack imagination.
    And I guess that's sort of the divide... to some writers there's a built in social agenda (Coates for example probably was put on the book for that very reason). But to others, they might just be telling fun comic book stories.

    But again, it's probably fair to say that Wakanda was sheltered from being conquered on panel at least (off panel you can argue it was technically conqured a couple of times as the entire earth on a few occasions was conquered) until Doom War. Once it was conquered once in a BP book, it was no longer an unconquered nation so it sort of became free game for other books to follow suit.

  13. #3643
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    And I guess that's sort of the divide... to some writers there's a built in social agenda (Coates for example probably was put on the book for that very reason). But to others, they might just be telling fun comic book stories.

    But again, it's probably fair to say that Wakanda was sheltered from being conquered on panel at least (off panel you can argue it was technically conqured a couple of times as the entire earth on a few occasions was conquered) until Doom War. Once it was conquered once in a BP book, it was no longer an unconquered nation so it sort of became free game for other books to follow suit.
    Technicalities aside, again, breaking the mystique of Wakanda as the unconquered nation also meant breaking the idealism that came with that, the dream of what Africa could and should have been without the interference of European colonialism and imperialism. What that meant to a lot of people . . . that's something I don't think a lot of (other) people, whether fans or industry professionals, fully grasp, because that's not been their experience. Their experience has no context for a dream or an ideal like Wakanda, because they haven't needed something like Wakanda to reassure them that their lives and perspectives have value and worth in real life.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  14. #3644
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Technicalities aside, again, breaking the mystique of Wakanda as the unconquered nation also meant breaking the idealism that came with that, the dream of what Africa could and should have been without the interference of European colonialism and imperialism. What that meant to a lot of people . . . that's something I don't think a lot of (other) people, whether fans or industry professionals, fully grasp, because that's not been their experience. Their experience has no context for a dream or an ideal like Wakanda, because they haven't needed something like Wakanda to reassure them that their lives and perspectives have value and worth in real life.
    This is easy to say in hindsight... but after the fact at least I don't think anyone should have necessarily expected Wakanda to never be conquered.

    If this were a japanesse manga where a single writer told a single vision with a complete beginning, middle and end obviously it would be possible. But in a marvel comic, where dozens and dozens of different writers are using this IP in dozens and dozens of different books spanning decades, it's not impossible to imagine one writer might want to tell a story where someone defeats Wakanda. Especially in the marvel universe, which by default isn't the most idealistic place in fiction. It's where Captain Freaking America became a Nazi.

    I think the BP franchise blowing up actually made it more vulnerable to this. Wakanda sitting in limbo offered it a degree of protection. But once it got into the spotlight and started being used in event after event after event, it sort of placed a bullseye on it.

  15. #3645
    Mighty Member Redjack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    This is easy to say in hindsight... but after the fact at least I don't think anyone should have necessarily expected Wakanda to never be conquered.

    If this were a japanesse manga where a single writer told a single vision with a complete beginning, middle and end obviously it would be possible. But in a marvel comic, where dozens and dozens of different writers are using this IP in dozens and dozens of different books spanning decades, it's not impossible to imagine one writer might want to tell a story where someone defeats Wakanda. Especially in the marvel universe, which by default isn't the most idealistic place in fiction. It's where Captain Freaking America became a Nazi.

    I think the BP franchise blowing up actually made it more vulnerable to this. Wakanda sitting in limbo offered it a degree of protection. But once it got into the spotlight and started being used in event after event after event, it sort of placed a bullseye on it.
    you're talking about these things as if they're real.

    all of these were choices made by writers and editors. and, insofar as they've corrupted the intent and the ideal represented by Wakanda, they are poor examples of both.

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