Black Panther Appreciation 2020

[MindofShadow]

Given that he's gotten such a small push I forgot he existed, I think I can rest my case.

Mosaic was another one.

He got 8? issues from Redjack and then got butchered in the event by ohter writers lol

[XPac]

Oh okay, that's not as bad a deal as I thought.

I'd still buy the blu-ray anyway. No way would I let BP2 be the first MCU movie *not* on my shelf.



That's exactly what it is. The Big 2 have realized they are way behind when it comes to representation but their famous, big name heroes are almost all white straight males, so now they're trying to balance things out by making most of their new characters minorities. And conceptually that's great, I'm glad they're trying to fix this problem (which should've been a focus for them a long time ago but better late than never, I guess).

But I think there's two major problems they keep running into; first off is that most comic fans go to the LCS for those famous, long standing characters. We're not gonna stop reading Spider-Man so we can buy some new, fresh face we know nothing about and have no emotional attachment to, so finding sustainable audiences in the direct market for the new characters is a challenge. And secondly, a lot of these new characters.....they're designed with representation in mind more than making a good character. We're not gonna buy a book just because the character is a PoC, we want a *good* character, and a lot of the time it's the race/gender/religion/whatever that the character is built around and hung on and that usually just does not make for a engaging, well rounded hero; at best it makes for a thin, two dimensional character with little to offer beyond the "diversity checkbox" and at worst it's just pandering.

Thank the gods we have some exceptions like Kamala Khan and Naomi. Those are examples of how to broaden your representation without making diversity the only thing the character hangs on.

Like someone said a page or three back; we're not Black Panther fans just because T'Challa is black.

I think that's why in many cases they try to sneak the minority females into more well established franchises. Miles, Shuri as BP and Iron Heart are obvious examples. I think at one point the idea was to give Blade a daughter... though that project didn't work out. And that sort of tactic can have mixed results.

But that's what made a character like Moon Girl so cool... she mostly popped as a character completely on her own. Being an Inhuman didn't really help her (heck, you can argue it hurt a little). One in a blue moon you can catch lightning in a bottle. And I'd put Kamala in the same category to a lesser extent. She is obviously attatched to Carol, but at the time Carol herself was just finding her footing.

[Ezyo1000]

Id pay the 29.99 because there would be no way I would be able to not be on this forum and not be able to talk about the movie or avoid spoilers for it to be free. Plus I would of gone asap to the theaters if it was released there. ESPECIALLY since it would be Chad's last performance as T'Challa I wouldn't miss it for anything

[Ezyo1000]

Difference between X-Men and Black Panther is that X-Men is a team book. It is designed that way. All those characters are generally enhanced and each theoretically can have their own book or arc focused on them.

Storm wasn't created to support Cyclops for example. Wolverine wasn't created to support Iceman.

Shuri/Okoye/Nakia/Zuri/T'chaka/Ramunda/Hunter/ect were all directly created to enhance and support T'challa's story.

No different than say... Spider-Man and Mary Jane/Jonah/Gwen/ect


I mean, I am a fan of the Mythos and the "world." But that world crumbles without T'challa. IMO of course.

There are many in this thread that are more "Team Wakanda" vs "Team T'challa." Which is fine, but I am not one of them.

This. Plus we have seen what happens when the supporting cast tries to break away form T'Challa via bpWow, Shuri, and Wakanda forever (granted all 3 of them bit the hand that fed them to some capacity so that didn't help, and their stories were ****, but still) and without T'Challa they crumble. Hell the marvel action comics Black Panther comic also shows what happens when you try to sideline T'Challa in favor of Shuri (it also failed).

Now I will say I am not as team T'Challa as MOS (as MOS has said, he would sacrifice 10000 Wakandan redshirts of it meant T'Challa got to totally kick ass) but I lean more towards that then team Wakanda. For me, I would rather see SWaD situation, Hudlins WitBP situation, or actually see Hickman's tro Wakanda vs Black order actually play out. IE Wakanda is shown as fully capable and powerful with T'Challa leading them at the front lines in all his glory. For me, I want the big feats for Wakanda, that were perpetuated by T'Challa Making it happen by himself, no delagation, no in the shadows while everyone else does the hard lifting. Basically a T'Challa beats back Black dwarf straight up while Wakandan redshirts beat back the invading force.

[Ezyo1000]

To be fair to Devaishwarya’s point though, this is a phenomenon you see in solo franchises too. Plenty of people are more a fan of Batman’s supporting cast and spin-off characters than the main hero himself. Same goes for Peter and the whole Spider-Man Family. People prefer Miles or Spider-Gwen, etc. The difference is that those franchises can support multiple books to give everyone what they want. But if you’re a fan of Shuri, the Dora, Kaspar Cole, or Killmonger first, you don’t have many avenues to enjoy them outside of the main Black Panther book. So the test in the future is to see if the world of Wakanda is bigger than a single character and while I’d eventually lose interest if T’Challa wasn’t the face of the franchise, I unfortunately think it could with enough push.

The difference between Spiderman and Batmans universes are that the writers took the time to develop then abd groom those supporting characters to a level of which they can support themselves without the main character. When BP blew up and we had all those spin offs, Marvel comics made 3 fatal mistakes:

1. They did what DC tried to do with their justice league movie and force a several year build up into a team movie into 2 movie's max.

2 They hired people without comic writing experience and chalked full of biased agendas onto those spin off books who immediately started bashing the title character (biting the hand that feeds them)

3 Just told lame ass stories

The black panther mythos has a rich tapestry of stories to tell with different characters (personally I have a fanfic on my head that focuses on the HZ and the DM and pits them as this elite fighting force and the styles and inner workings of each group and missions between them) but it needs to be crafted properly, with the same care and time that Spiderman and Batman were given. They wanted the same level of spin offs without putting in the effort to actually make it work and it failed with ultimately hurts T'Challa more than anyone. So tell good stories, don't bash the main character, and spend the time to develop the characters in an organic way.

Plus another way to get T'Challa to that level is to have A list writers and artist on the books. Now, would o prefer it to be a black writer? Sure, bit not as much of a big deal now since Coates and his cabal have held the mythos hostage for the last 4 year's. Now I Just want the best writers with the best artists who can be professional or love the character and are fans themselves (or both of possible *cough* Redjack *cough*) who want to tell epic tales. That will get him to Spiderman or Batman level's because he represents a demographic that is untapped and can get him to that level and inspire more young people to tell stories about him

[skyvolt2000]

Given that he's gotten such a small push I forgot he existed, I think I can rest my case.

He got a doll from Marvel Rising.

Yet got left out of BOTH comic books versions of it.

I've actually noticed this myself. How many new young male heroes (of color or otherwise) can you name out of Marvel in the last 5 years or so?

Mosaic

RayShuan Lucas

I got a better question how many have been killed off and not come back yet?

Mettle & Ageis

DC Comics

One who they killed off. Jog.
Duke Thomas-who saw calls for boycotts of any book he was in even in marvel threads (that got deleted)

To be fair to Devaishwarya‘a point though, this is a phenomenon you see in solo franchises too. Plenty of people are more a fan of Batman’s supporting cast and spin-off characters than the main hero himself. Same goes for Peter and the whole Spider-Man Family. People prefer Miles or Spider-Gwen, etc. The difference is that those franchises can support multiple books to give everyone what they want.

Batman and Peter's family were given spinoffs that were not reliant on those two.

All those folks were made to stand on their own.

Batman and Nightwing don't work in the same city.

Batgirl at times is the same.

Miles and Peter are in two different worlds despite being in New York.

Shuri-does she need to be in Wakanda?

Nakia doesn't have to be since she is a spy.

Okeye does.

[DrNewGod]

Considering the previous Patriot magically vanished getting a new one barely breaks even. Though Eli did show up in Flashback for like a second in Empyre.

But I think what's happening is pretty obvious. Comics historically are dominated by white male characters... to compensate (or overcompensate depending on your perspective) you basically pump out new minority female characters. There's a cold logic to it I guess.

Disney and WB, but especially Disney, are keenly aware that women have been outpacing men for both admission to and graduation from college, and they're looking down the road to what that means for spending power. I'm sure there are creatives who genuinely want to tell stories about strong women, and editors/producers that back representation. But at the real decision level, who gets promoted is based on what the executives think will win the long game, whether well-reasoned or not.

[XPac]

Disney and WB, but especially Disney, are keenly aware that women have been outpacing men for both admission to and graduation from college, and they're looking down the road to what that means for spending power. I'm sure there are creatives who genuinely want to tell stories about strong women, and editors/producers that back representation. But at the real decision level, who gets promoted is based on what the executives think will win the long game, whether well-reasoned or not.

That's pretty believable. And Disney in particular likes marketing towards younger girls anyways, so it might be a case where the socially responsible and financially practical agendas actually line up. I'll take it either way.

It sort of reeks of agenda, but in this day and age what doesn't.

[Devaishwarya]

OG BP Shuri is just T'challa was boobs. That is why they created this Griot stuff and why the MCU made her a tech genius instead (and then the comics copied). You can't just clone the main hero and expect everyone to like them.

I'll concede Batman though. But damn... BP mythos in the comics aint even at like... Daredevil level... getting to Batman level is a damn pipe dream lol. BP isn't even a solidified seller by himself.

When Hudlin wrote Shuri as the next BP he didn't write her as T'Challa with Boobs. And she really came into her own, imo.
(to the bolded) That speaks more to the grossly wasted opportunity and potential the Marvel editors squandered over the years and specifically after the Movie by handing the reigns to some idiot who just wanted to tear everything down (in stark contrast to what was built up before) because he was feeling some kind of way.

Like Hell's Kitchen and Gotham, or more relevant, like Krakoa...Wakanda could/should have been a world onto itself by now.

[MindofShadow]

When Hudlin wrote Shuri as the next BP he didn't write her as T'Challa with Boobs. And she really came into her own, imo.

Hudlin wrote Shuri as BP for all of like 1 issue. Mayberry wrote everything after Deadliest of Species I do believe.

Fair or not, we never really got to explore Shuri as BP fully. Her "reign" really only lasted all of 6 issues of Power, 6 issues of Doom War, and then that shitty mini with Klaw. Then she failed as a main character as Tchalla entered a weird limbo state that pretty much acted like he was still Black Panther but he wasn't but kinda was but didn't rule but kinda ruled lol.

(to the bolded) That speaks more to the grossly wasted opportunity and potential the Marvel editors squandered over the years and specifically after the Movie by handing the reigns to some idiot who just wanted to tear everything down (in stark contrast to what was built up before) because he was feeling some kind of way.

Like Hell's Kitchen and Gotham, or more relevant, like Krakoa...Wakanda could/should have been a world onto itself by now.

I agree

Wakanda even making it to Asgard status would be nice. Non BP, Marvel fans probably can't name more than 4 people in Wakanda and can name double digit asguardians.

Bruh, we can't even get a good villain lol. BP comic mythos are failing the basics.

[chief12d]

Miles wasn't made to be Parkers support staff. He was created to be a legacy character. That is different.

Spider-Gwen is the exact same way. OG Gwen was a support character. Spider-Gwen was brought over to be a spin off/legacy type. Those characters were designed to do their own thing.

Shuri was a bit supporting character for the first... 41 issues of her existence. They tried to treat her like a "Robin" by having her take over the mantle and then run her the same time as T'challa dressed in the same suit and it just didn't work (sales/support wise).

And the thing about the Bat fam and the spider-fam is that they made the spinoffs their own characters. IF Miles was just black Peter Parker or if Gwen was just Parker with boobs, it wouldn't have worked. They changed their costumes to be distinct, gave Miles different powers and made them actual characters so they could have actual fans instead of just Parker's fans transferred over.

OG BP Shuri is just T'challa was boobs. That is why they created this Griot stuff and why the MCU made her a tech genius instead (and then the comics copied). You can't just clone the main hero and expect everyone to like them.

I'll concede Batman though. But damn... BP mythos in the comics aint even at like... Daredevil level... getting to Batman level is a damn pipe dream lol. BP isn't even a solidified seller by himself.

I agree with everything you’re saying, but I think you’re making a distinction without a difference. Like the Batman and Spider-Man franchises, the Black Panther mythos is home to a wealth of characters outside the main hero that have garnered their own fanbases (driven almost entirely by the MCU). That these characters weren’t designed to be legacies is besides the point I’m making. They’re popular and among some audiences even preferred over T’Challa.

They can’t sustain their own books for the reasons you and others have laid out. Trash attempts at branching off being chief among them. Politically driven narratives, inexperienced writers, failing to give them their own niche, etc. But it also speaks to a wider issue that we’ve all been discussing for a while. The huge gulf in popularity between T’Challa as a multimedia IP and his as an actual comic property. T’Challa isn’t at Daredevil levels of respect and love amongst most comic readers or creators.

That makes him much more dispensable to the Black Panther mythology than say Bruce Wayne or Peter Parker to their respective franchises. Shuri could, in theory, be pushed as hard as Captain Marvel was/is and most comic fans who don’t care/actively dislike Black Panther will shrug their shoulders and most comic creators would do what they were doing before and write her as T’Challa with boobs (but a little more hot-headed/quippy). The fact T’Challa isn’t a solidified seller himself is precisely why he’s more replaceable than other characters who have similarly wide supporting characters/legacies.

Obviously I wouldn’t want that. I’m a dude that would be fine with millions of Wakandan redshirts dying if it meant T’Challa got a feat. To me, he’s what makes the mythos as great as it is, but we’re a minority among comic fans. I could be wrong and obviously we’ll never know until Marvel actually tries, but that’s the way I’m seeing it right now.

[chief12d]

Hudlin wrote Shuri as BP for all of like 1 issue. Mayberry wrote everything after Deadliest of Species I do believe.

Fair or not, we never really got to explore Shuri as BP fully. Her "reign" really only lasted all of 6 issues of Power, 6 issues of Doom War, and then that shitty mini with Klaw. Then she failed as a main character as Tchalla entered a weird limbo state that pretty much acted like he was still Black Panther but he wasn't but kinda was but didn't rule but kinda ruled lol.




I agree

Wakanda even making it to Asgard status would be nice. Non BP, Marvel fans probably can't name more than 4 people in Wakanda and can name double digit asguardians.

Bruh, we can't even get a good villain lol. BP comic mythos are failing the basics.

This is why seeing MCU Black Panther do better worldbuilding and have better side characters than MCU Thor is so funny. The former has such jumbled source material to work with but still did a great job of highlighting everything great about T’Challa’s world. It really sucks that basic fundamentals like supporting cast and well developed villains are hard to come by in so many Black Panther comics.

Especially two years after the film comes out. Why is M’Baku still dead? How come Shuri still has no personality? Why is T’Challa not a silent, badass warrior king with a good temper? We still know next to nothing about the Golden City or previous Black Panthers.

[XPac]

This is why seeing MCU Black Panther do better worldbuilding and have better side characters than MCU Thor is so funny. The former has such jumbled source material to work with but still did a great job of highlighting everything great about T’Challa’s world. It really sucks that basic fundamentals like supporting cast and well developed villains are hard to come by in so many Black Panther comics.

Especially two years after the film comes out. Why is M’Baku still dead? How come Shuri still has no personality? Why is T’Challa not a silent, badass warrior king with a good temper? We still know next to nothing about the Golden City or previous Black Panthers.

Given Asgard and most of Thors supporting cast was killed off anyways, they probably didn't need much more world building than we got.

[MouserGrey]

T'Challa and Wakanda may have been around for decades, but they have not had near the number of appearances or stories dedicated to them than almost any other character in the MCU. I'm sure one of you has the numbers. My point is that at least most T'Challa's story should be shown on the big screen before the number of stories about him get eclipsed by supporting characters.

[Marvell2100]

As a counter to MoS's point...I'm a fan of T'Challa and Black Panther...but I'm also a huge fan of the world and mythos and characters of Wakanda as a whole. For me one doesn't exist without the other, not successfully.
It's always a little baffling to me how someone could love to the point of obsession one X-Men character but completely disregard the X-Men as whole (just as an example). I understand my "fan-thinking" is probably in the minority but still...

It's really simple.

Compare how man X-Men you can name to how many Wakandans you can name. How many mutant books are published compared to how many books about BP and Wakanda.

They've taken out whole teams of X-Men but there are still enough characters for people to follow. They're are alot of people that comprise the X-Men.

T'Challa is Wakanda.