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  1. #9871
    The Professional Marvell2100's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redjack View Post
    well, okay, then. you do the math.
    Okay.

    (Black Panther + Wakanda) x 2 vs Alien invasion in Wakanda = Die muthaf*cka! Die!

    There was a history lesson in there too.

  2. #9872
    Extraordinary Member Cville's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    Except everyone called him that. Even in DW which followed vol 5 before liss. Literary everyone
    I dont think so. I believe the captions said "former black panther". I think they just called him Tchalla throughout the story.

  3. #9873
    Extraordinary Member Ezyo1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cville View Post
    Calling here "Tchalla with boobs", but then saying shes inferior in every way kinda reinforces my assumption. Becuase if shes "Tchalla" with boobs, that would imply their have equal standing, but pointing out shes inferior makes that statement appear as a slight.
    She WAS inferior. In every way, she shared the same type of personality as a stoic serious character like T'Challa hence the term T'Challa with boobs. No I am not threatened by women, noe am i diminishing female characters or thinking a female character could not do as well as a man, but that term is to criticize the poor treatment of the character. What I AM doing is criticizing Hudlin for how he handled Shuri. If you have been reading what's been said, chief and I have been discussing ways to elevate the character and actually carve out a space for her to be her own superhero with a supporting cast and clear path and her own adventures. Because when she took over nothing happened to her, she had a failed mini and then was obscure and did nothing untill Hickman where she ultimately died in a very pathetic way. I hated the whole thing. She had so much potential and writers keep dropping the ball

  4. #9874
    BCB 4sake Baned's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chief12d View Post
    That would've been the ideal direction for her character. And as poorly implemented as it was, Shuri becoming Griot was laying the foundation for that to happen. The clearest and most sensible distinction that could be made between T'Challa and Shuri is one specializing in tech and the other using magic.

    T'Challa had it baked into his character from the beginning as a super-scientist and martial artist, but there has never been a consistent mystic type in his supporting cast and Shuri could've played that role before being spun-off into her own adventures. He handles the espionage, royal politics, super-tech stuff, Shuri handles the magic, demons, ancient evils from the shadows. That's obviously no longer an option with the MCU characterization having become so iconic. Which is why...


    this is the most feasible direction to take the character. Princess Shuri and the PRIDE (Princess Research Initiative Division Executives). Shuri is all about tech and expanding Wakanda's tech package. As Head Engineer of the Wakandan Design Group, she outfits and leads a team of young Wakandans all enhanced with tricked out tech and/or superhuman abilities, acting as a rapid response tech squadron.

    They specialize in advancing Wakandan knowledge, deployment to hostile environments, neutralizing exotic threats with the latest in experimental tech. Like Redjack floated a few pages back, put them on those quirky Journey Into Mystery-esque adventures, centered around discovery and transmission of what they learn back to Wakanda. One minute they're in a dark dimension looking for a new energy source, next they're deep in the mutated swamps of Serpent Valley searching for some cure. Throw in some YA slice of life stuff (shitty boyfriends, girls night outs, etc.) and you got a viable route for Shuri to be the collegiate, Disney princess version of Moon Girl or Ironheart.
    True I still think the tech mage alchemist but I the TNC Groit nonsense is much different then the tech mage alchemist role I’m talking..
    The Groit nonsense come off as sorceress/Dr.strange type & u know how I feel about him lol.. Think of more of a Super genius Edward/Fullmetal alchemist type character. But instead of transmutation circles he channels the alchemy through the panther blasters/gauntlets.
    As for the Pride :

    QDJ - retake her land & kicks out MA or they die in earthquake cause by WG God being piss they on its land. QDJ become Queen of her ppl & avatar of the WG. She then gets her cousin/uncle MBaku freed from USA jail ( now looking like Mr Duke)

    N'Jadaka II ( son of KM & Madame slay ), Vibraxas, Asha, Flea, Onome & Kwezi Dzana would make up the Remaining members of the pride for me.


    Quote Originally Posted by chief12d View Post
    T'Challa trained her and has more feats under his belt. I think it's generally understood by anyone that reads Black Panther comics that T'Challa is a better fighter than Shuri lol. Like I said, Shuri has no realistic chance of being BP as long as he's alive and well so from an out of universe perspective it's entirely logical and beneficial to the Black Panther IP to transition her into her own role independent of BP.

    In-universe, this can be done by creating a character journey where she develops a talent and belief that diminishes her interest in the role. That way she can have her own adventures that aren't contingent on her being invested in the throne. That way instead of being a power-hungry Robin she can be a fully realized Nightwing.
    I agree completely

    Quote Originally Posted by chief12d View Post
    Shuri does not have the ability to be Black Panther unless T'Challa is dead or otherwise incapacitated. The audience knows this, the stories have more less shown this, and so the narrative needs to be bent to reflect this fact. In the wake of her resurrection Shuri should develop new passions and different perspectives on how to strengthen her nation that remove her desire to be Black Panther. Character development and compartmentalization, which is how you build a good supporting character lol.

    From there, we as an audience can grow invested in her new role (Griot, leader of the PRIDE, whatever) and allow her to grow into her own character and franchise. There was a time when Dick Grayson wanted to be Batman. But that's not a sustainable status quo for a character nor is it useful in building the overarching Bat brand. So the editors had him evolve in his role as Robin and leader of the Titans until he eventually became Nightwing and did his own thing. We've seen that for many a Bat character and we absolutely should see it with Shuri. It's not low self-esteem to leave behind old dreams in favor of new ones. That's a fact of life and it can be a beautiful thing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    No... It's not. Shuri was practically absent the entirety of Hudlins run until vol 5, and in that run she was STILL rejected by Bast. Again, I Love what Hudlin did for the mythos and BP as a whole.

    Like Priest, Hudlin was monumental in bringing T'Challa to the big stage and getting him on the map. However, like Priest and Ross, Hudlin didn't do any favors to the mythos with his use of Shuri. Priest over used Ross and Hudlin underused Shuri. She did not get even close to enough development to warrant a satisfying transition into BP.

    I would argue that, If she rejected the mantle when T'Challa came back that would of been an even bigger and better character development than her taking it. Because her whole deal since creation was wanting to be BP and feeling cheated, and had she rejected it at that point, realizing she doesn't have to be in her brothers Shadow and carving her own way.

    It would of had a bigger impact then what we got, which was constant comparison to T'Challa, and painfully clear she was inferior to T'Challa on every way and to the point that T'Challa was still referred to as the Black Panther despite him not holding the mantle anymore

    Definitely agree RH definitely didn’t properly utilize Shuri, S’yan WK, Zuri like he could/should have & didn’t used QDJ at all when he definitely shouldve..
    Last edited by 4sake Baned; 11-30-2020 at 06:37 PM.

  5. #9875
    Extraordinary Member Ezyo1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cville View Post
    But if shes equivalent, than the only reason not to accept her is because she's female? Or are you saying Tchalla is not that impressive either?
    The reason to not accept her was because she was the exact same character but not as good. Doesn't matter of she was a male character either. It basically comes down to what was the point of replacing the title character with another who's the same except inferior in every way and doesn't bring anything different?

    Notice how this whole time we have been discussing how she could of from the jump had a clear skillset that was unique or her and different from T'Challa. Notice how I have said multiple times that she should be focused on developing and testing the latest and greatest Wakandan tech. Notice the talk about her super genius and capabilities unique to her as well as her own code names, personality, character arc, and supporting cast. And you want to play the angle that we are intimidated by or think lesser of female characters?? Come on cville we have been discussing BP for years now, you should know I ain't on that isht

  6. #9876
    Extraordinary Member Cville's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    The reason to not accept her was because she was the exact same character but not as good. Doesn't matter of she was a male character either. It basically comes down to what was the point of replacing the title character with another who's the same except inferior in every way and doesn't bring anything different?

    Notice how this whole time we have been discussing how she could of from the jump had a clear skillset that was unique or her and different from T'Challa. Notice how I have said multiple times that she should be focused on developing and testing the latest and greatest Wakandan tech. Notice the talk about her super genius and capabilities unique to her as well as her own code names, personality, character arc, and supporting cast. And you want to play the angle that we are intimidated by or think lesser of female characters?? Come on cville we have been discussing BP for years now, you should know I ain't on that isht
    Well to me, the way the phrase has been used, seems like it was the same as someone saying "you're pretty for a dark skinned girl". It sounds like they're trying to give a compliment, but has the undertone of something sinister as if the physical attribute has some effect. Especially when the following sentences say how inferior she is.

  7. #9877
    Get Hectic! FLEX HECTIC's Avatar
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    The real problem with Shuri is that she creates an argument where there never was one before!


    Most super hero types are loners roaming from one episode to the next with the bare minimal of close family and relatives!


    Right now the discussion is more towards little sister Shuri than a black male character that has very few love interests developed for him as other characters have since 1966!


    You only have oh so much panel space or screen time unless it's Godfather or Lord of The Rings and someone is bound to get marginalized one way or another!


    If you leave someone out you are showing a bias and if you bring them out but don't give them enough airtime then you are showing another form of bias!


    Also if you push the main antagonist aside for the sake of a stand in you alienate diehard fans just to make a point that gets lost in translation!


    Elbow room becomes the agenda and you're damned if you do or damned if you don't do... Thus Sayeth Cancel Culture!


    Then you have to call a press conference and have your PR people troubleshoot and put a spin on why you are such an "ist"


    But then again that could all be mute now that DC Comics is having a layoff extravaganza and Marvel Comics has cancelled a few titles as well!


    With the lagging sales on Marvels Avengers video game at some point you have to ask if anybody still wants to put food on the table!


    Personally... I'm all for Letitia Wright playing Black Panther because as a person she is likable and I wish her all the best under these trying circumstances!


    However, with Wonder Woman and probably Black Widow going straight to streaming one has to accept the cards that they are dealt and deal with it admirably!


    Get Hectic!

  8. #9878
    Extraordinary Member Ezyo1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cville View Post
    Well to me, the way the phrase has been used, seems like it was the same as someone saying "you're pretty for a dark skinned girl". It sounds like they're trying to give a compliment, but has the undertone of something sinister as if the physical attribute has some effect. Especially when the following sentences say how inferior she is.
    It was used to criticize the poor treatment of a character with a ton of potential who was relegated to a reskin of the title Character but female and inferior.

    Has nothing at all to do with her gender as the conversation was never "Shuri should of never been bp because she is female and inferior to T'Challa" but explaining that she should not of been bp given the manner in which it went because her entire arc and development revolved around a title she was never ever going to keep and the end result was the same powerset as T'Challa but weaker. And that from The jump she should of been able to forge her own path different than T'Challa so that she could reject the role or of she did take it, at the very least she would bring something unique to the table and something different than T'Challa.

    Think of Miles was exactly the same as peter in terms of personality, and powers but weaker and didn't have any of his powers he currently possesses? And ontop of that say when he takes the mantle he had no development prior to it? You would get the exact same thing From me I would say he was Peter Parker but black

  9. #9879
    Extraordinary Member Cville's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    It was used to criticize the poor treatment of a character with a ton of potential who was relegated to a reskin of the title Character but female and inferior.

    Has nothing at all to do with her gender as the conversation was never "Shuri should of never been bp because she is female and inferior to T'Challa" but explaining that she should not of been bp given the manner in which it went because her entire arc and development revolved around a title she was never ever going to keep and the end result was the same powerset as T'Challa but weaker. And that from The jump she should of been able to forge her own path different than T'Challa so that she could reject the role or of she did take it, at the very least she would bring something unique to the table and something different than T'Challa.

    Think of Miles was exactly the same as peter in terms of personality, and powers but weaker and didn't have any of his powers he currently possesses? And ontop of that say when he takes the mantle he had no development prior to it? You would get the exact same thing From me I would say he was Peter Parker but black
    Your Miles example has the same problem. You're saying that there is a problem with the character, but you've condensed the reason to a race/gender. But, all the problems have nothing to do with either.

  10. #9880
    Get Hectic! FLEX HECTIC's Avatar
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    Fixed it for ya...


    Wakanda.

    Warrior Falls.

    Princess Zanda: "Is this your king... Is this your king..."

    The elders and all present to witness this fiasco as their mighty king T'challa, son of T'chaka was straight gettin dat @$$ whooped by none other than Princess Zanda.

    Princess Zanda: "The Black Panther... Supposed to lead you into the future!"

    Then with one heave Princess Zanda hoisted and tossed Wakanda's greatest warrior over the waterfall like... SPLLLL-ooooooosh!

    Princess Zanda: "Nah, I'm your queen now!"

    The Doras all faced front and submitted the obligatory "Wakanda Forever" salute to their new reigning monarch and mantle holder of Black Panthress.

    That night after a heart shaped induced cocktail Princess Zanda is buried and awakens in the ancestral plain.

    King T'chaka: "Wait... Where is my son?"

    Princess Zanda: "Oh he'll be here as soon as he succumbs to the frigid waters upstream somewhere."

    King T'chaka: "What is the meaning of this?"

    Princess Zanda: "I am queen of Wakanda now so there will be a few changes being made around here."

    King T'chaka: "But you are not of royal Wakandan blood."

    Princess Zanda: "I know that and you know that... I forged my ancestry data to make this possible old man."

    King T'chaka: "But your parents and I were friends."

    Princess Zanda: "My parents like you are dead... I saw to it personally myself. Now I have two kingdoms to rule and soon all of Africa will grovel at my vibranium laced feet."

    King T'chaka: "You won't get away with this."

    Princess Zanda: "BTW... Your son died a spectacular death!"

    King T'chaka: "Why are you doing this?"

    Princess Zanda: "One reason of course... Character development."

    King T'chaka: "You lost me there."

    Princess Zanda: "For years I stood by and watched as this franchise ran itself into the ground with retcon after retcon... Wasted energy on family reunions with total disregard for the rogues gallery. So I seized my chance but not after waxing your son something awful!"

    King T'chaka: "Waxing my son... Are you saying what I think you are saying?"

    Princess Zanda: "YES... Your son has not had sex in many years so I put it on him so bad I aborbed all of his energy and then used it to defeat him. You should have seen the smile on his face as he descended off the waterfall. Happily satiated I'll say."

    King T'chaka: "Glory to Bast that's a heck of a way to go... My BOY I can't wait until he gets here and tells me all about it. Did he..."

    Princess Zanda: "I mean... It had been so long so he was a bit apprehensive... Anxious even... But he went out like a true Wakandan Warrior. I got mine if that's what you are asking."

    King T'chaka: "I gave him the sex talk when he was younger so uhm..."

    Princess Zanda: "Yes, I can confirm that the Spear of Bashenga was very thorough."

    King T'chaka: "With that said I wish you all the best as queen of Wakanda...But I'm curious... After your victory did my daughter Shuri not seek revenge or at least the title of queen?"

    Princess Zanda: "Sir, I'm sorry but your daughter has been retconned... Nobody cares about little sisters in a genre bred for vicarious living."

    King T'chaka: "You right about that... So to get the powers back from you my son has toooooooo..."

    Princess Zanda: "Assuming that he lives... Perhaps I will grant him another AHEM!"

    King T'chaka: "This is deep who is writing us right now I'm digging it."

    Princess Zanda: "I think we are in some fan fiction on CBR."

    King T'chaka: "Paul Muad'Dib?"

    Princess Zanda: "Nah, some guy named Flex or something... Well anyway I gotta go do the super villain thing so peace out!"


    1-800-HAVE-TCHALLA-GET-SOME-FINALLY-LIKE-ENOUGH-ALREADY-I-MEAN-CMON
    Get Hectic!

  11. #9881
    Extraordinary Member Ezyo1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cville View Post
    Your Miles example has the same problem. You're saying that there is a problem with the character, but you've condensed the reason to a race/gender. But, all the problems have nothing to do with either.
    Its the same as if I said Shuri/ Miles was T'Challa/Peter-lite except I'm pointing to the very specific difference being race or gender which that comes off as pandering or checking off a diversity box with zero substance to back it up and basing the entire character around that one thing and Ontop of that I already listed the issues, at no point during this entire exchange did I ever leave it at "Shuri is just T'Challa with boobs". Your taking what I'm saying as if I said race or gender is the only issue when actually I'm saying that's the only clear difference between the two and also that they are weaker then the character they are replacing, I'm also calling out another problem which is why make a character a different gender or race inferior to the original? If Shuri was weaker then T'Challa in everything but superior to him clearly when it came to magic then that's an angle that Shuri could shine and show why she makes to be an interesting character and BP. But that's not what we got. We got a re-skin that differs by being less capable and the opposite gender

  12. #9882

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    Why the concern about Shuri in this thread all the sudden? She hasn’t been a BP in 6 years, her most recent stint as a BP was strictly temporary, and she literally has her own title, power set, outfit(s), journey, and more. Isn’t that what we’ve been asking for?

    And “T’Challa with Boobs”? Are we forgetting that Shuri was a highly arrogant, wise cracking BP that a lot of Wakandans didn’t take seriously for a long time? Even when Wakanda pushed back Thanos’ army the first time around during the Hickman run, Shuri—not T’Challa—was the one openly bragging about being victorious and how badly they beat them up. Since when does T’Challa do that? And she wasn’t even considered a top 10 smartest person back then.

    If the concern is due to the MCU: Just because the MCU may not recast doesn’t mean that T’Challa will not be in the comics as king or BP (I strongly believe he’ll still have the mantle and throne). And there’s still the possibility Marvel recasts the role, making all of this a moot point.

  13. #9883
    Extraordinary Member Ezyo1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLEX HECTIC View Post
    Fixed it for ya...


    Wakanda.

    Warrior Falls.

    Princess Zanda: "Is this your king... Is this your king..."

    The elders and all present to witness this fiasco as their mighty king T'challa, son of T'chaka was straight gettin dat @$$ whooped by none other than Princess Zanda.

    Princess Zanda: "The Black Panther... Supposed to lead you into the future!"

    Then with one heave Princess Zanda hoisted and tossed Wakanda's greatest warrior over the waterfall like... SPLLLL-ooooooosh!

    Princess Zanda: "Nah, I'm your queen now!"

    The Doras all faced front and submitted the obligatory "Wakanda Forever" salute to their new reigning monarch and mantle holder of Black Panthress.

    That night after a heart shaped induced cocktail Princess Zanda is buried and awakens in the ancestral plain.

    King T'chaka: "Wait... Where is my son?"

    Princess Zanda: "Oh he'll be here as soon as he succumbs to the frigid waters upstream somewhere."

    King T'chaka: "What is the meaning of this?"

    Princess Zanda: "I am queen of Wakanda now so there will be a few changes being made around here."

    King T'chaka: "But you are not of royal Wakandan blood."

    Princess Zanda: "I know that and you know that... I forged my ancestry data to make this possible old man."

    King T'chaka: "But your parents and I were friends."

    Princess Zanda: "My parents like you are dead... I saw to it personally myself. Now I have two kingdoms to rule and soon all of Africa will grovel at my vibranium laced feet."

    King T'chaka: "You won't get away with this."

    Princess Zanda: "BTW... Your son died a spectacular death!"

    King T'chaka: "Why are you doing this?"

    Princess Zanda: "One reason of course... Character development."

    King T'chaka: "You lost me there."

    Princess Zanda: "For years I stood by and watched as this franchise ran itself into the ground with retcon after retcon... Wasted energy on family reunions with total disregard for the rogues gallery. So I seized my chance but not after waxing your son something awful!"

    King T'chaka: "Waxing my son... Are you saying what I think you are saying?"

    Princess Zanda: "YES... Your son has not had sex in many years so I put it on him so bad I aborbed all of his energy and then used it to defeat him. You should have seen the smile on his face as he descended off the waterfall. Happily satiated I'll say."

    King T'chaka: "Glory to Bast that's a heck of a way to go... My BOY I can't wait until he gets here and tells me all about it. Did he..."

    Princess Zanda: "I mean... It had been so long so he was a bit apprehensive... Anxious even... But he went out like a true Wakandan Warrior. I got mine if that's what you are asking."

    King T'chaka: "I gave him the sex talk when he was younger so uhm..."

    Princess Zanda: "Yes, I can confirm that the Spear of Bashenga was very thorough."

    King T'chaka: "With that said I wish you all the best as queen of Wakanda...But I'm curious... After your victory did my daughter Shuri not seek revenge or at least the title of queen?"

    Princess Zanda: "Sir, I'm sorry but your daughter has been retconned... Nobody cares about little sisters in a genre bred for vicarious living."

    King T'chaka: "You right about that... So to get the powers back from you my son has toooooooo..."

    Princess Zanda: "Assuming that he lives... Perhaps I will grant him another AHEM!"

    King T'chaka: "This is deep who is writing us right now I'm digging it."

    Princess Zanda: "I think we are in some fan fiction on CBR."

    King T'chaka: "Paul Muad'Dib?"

    Princess Zanda: "Nah, some guy named Flex or something... Well anyway I gotta go do the super villain thing so peace out!"


    1-800-HAVE-TCHALLA-GET-SOME-FINALLY-LIKE-ENOUGH-ALREADY-I-MEAN-CMON


    Maaan Flex... Damnit if that wasn't some funny and smooth ish right there. Ultimately yes there are a lot of things I want for the mythos and T'Challas elevation, LI, Villain, then supporting cast should be developed on that order to get things on track.

  14. #9884
    Extraordinary Member Cville's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    Its the same as if I said Shuri/ Miles was T'Challa/Peter-lite except I'm pointing to the very specific difference being race or gender which that comes off as pandering or checking off a diversity box with zero substance to back it up and basing the entire character around that one thing and Ontop of that I already listed the issues, at no point during this entire exchange did I ever leave it at "Shuri is just T'Challa with boobs". Your taking what I'm saying as if I said race or gender is the only issue when actually I'm saying that's the only clear difference between the two and also that they are weaker then the character they are replacing, I'm also calling out another problem which is why make a character a different gender or race inferior to the original? If Shuri was weaker then T'Challa in everything but superior to him clearly when it came to magic then that's an angle that Shuri could shine and show why she makes to be an interesting character and BP. But that's not what we got. We got a re-skin that differs by being less capable and the opposite gender
    The two underlined statements cannot be true at the same time. Saying the only difference between two people is their gender/race, but then proceeding to say how one is inferior to the other makes it seem as the gender/race is the problem.

  15. #9885
    Extraordinary Member Ezyo1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Realdealholy View Post
    Why the concern about Shuri in this thread all the sudden? She hasn’t been a BP in 6 years, her most recent stint as a BP was strictly temporary, and she literally has her own title, power set, outfit(s), journey, and more. Isn’t that what we’ve been asking for?

    And “T’Challa with Boobs”? Are we forgetting that Shuri was a highly arrogant, wise cracking BP that a lot of Wakandans didn’t take seriously for a long time? Even when Wakanda pushed back Thanos’ army the first time around during the Hickman run, Shuri—not T’Challa—was the one openly bragging about being victorious and how badly they beat them up. Since when does T’Challa do that? And she wasn’t even considered a top 10 smartest person back then.

    If the concern is due to the MCU: Just because the MCU may not recast doesn’t mean that T’Challa will not be in the comics as king or BP (I strongly believe he’ll still have the mantle and throne). And there’s still the possibility Marvel recasts the role, making all of this a moot point.
    It originally started about criticism over Shuri at her creation and how she could of been her own character with a clearly defined powerset and role that we would not have the mess that is comics Shuri and MCU Shuri being so completely different which caused the weird transition in the comics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cville View Post
    The two underlined statements cannot be true at the same time. Saying the only difference between two people is their gender/race, but then proceeding to say how one is inferior to the other makes it seem as the gender/race is the problem.
    If a character is the same as another but weaker and a different gender/ race then they are a lesser version of the Original with the biggest difference between a different gender or race it still holds true and it's not pointing to gender or race as the problem. Again I never said "Shuri is inferior to T'Challa BECAUSE she is female" on terms of powers, intellect, martial arts etc. She is exactly the same as T'Challa but not as capable. Your trying to find an issue where there is none. The root of the problem is that a legacy character has been created to replace the original but offers nothing unique other than being female in Shuris case, Which does nothing if there isnt substance behind it. Shuri being female has never been a problem with her being Bp. It always been the lack of development that stunted her being her own character for years and has caused the mess we have where the comics are going one way and the MCU went another and it's a cluster trying to synergize the two

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