Black Panther Appreciation 2020

[Killerbee911]

You're essentially asking Coogler to rewrite an entire script and partially base it on the death of his friend and the friend and co-worker of everyone else involved. And the expectation is that he would have started making that change at least a month after Chadwick died? That's a very insensitive thing to ask of someone.

While I generally agree with you , I think you are making a mistake in saying Coogler has to rewrite the entire script. They can very easily keep the script and ask if you can make another character the main focus of the same script. And yes while that is some work it isn't blowing up everything up. And then considering how other characters had large part in the other film and everyone is back, that lets you know that is another part of the film's script that doesn't need to be blown up.

Now the most telling thing to me is how they have said they aren't going to use CGI to include the late star in the film that quickly narrows down what they are going do and when you consider that they are filming so soon in July. Your point seem right to the recast but Coogler has a co writer and they have access to other writers which turns a lion task into reworking something much easier. Don't over look Marvel saying to Ryan "we like your script can you put blank character as the lead" and Ryan going let me think about and get back to you. And maybe a few days later Ryan gets back to them "we obviously have to make some changes but I can think adjust this character to be the lead".

[MouserGrey]

It is though? I mean hes already died twice in the mcu. 2 outta 4 movies.

Hard to argue with. Maybe after all this time I just feel I'm being irrational or defensive. I try to hope about his future but considering how many decades he's been disserviced I feel like I'm only complaing.

[MindofShadow]

That's not how filmmaking works, and I've noticed this a lot with the Twitter folks saying "Shuri should be up next" or whatever.

For that to happen, Ryan Coogler would have to rewrite his entire script and based on reports prior to Chadwick's death and Coogler's comments about that, T'Challa is still the lead character in his current script. That means that from now to July next year, Marvel would be expecting Coogler to have written a new script and thrown out his old one. Except you can't literally finish your script on the month of production. It has to be at least by Marvel Studios' method a few months before that so they can start casting, secure rights to film in certain locations, have concept art ready, etc. That's why even though I've been on the fence about recasting I think that's the direction that they're going in based on the evidence.

People on Twitter are entitled and don't know what they're talking about. They think they can just say something and because it gets thousand of retweets and if they throw in a baseless accusation of racism/sexism/homophobia/etc or say how said thing would be good for representation that it'll just happen because they said so. All of that is ignoring how the creative process works. You're essentially asking Coogler to rewrite an entire script and partially base it on the death of his friend and the friend and co-worker of everyone else involved. And the expectation is that he would have started making that change at least a month after Chadwick died? That's a very insensitive thing to ask of someone. And just to be clear I'm neither a racist, sexist or homophobe and I support everyone but Twitter folks don't think objectively or about anyone else half of the time. That's why I say don't pay them attention.

I'm still on the fence on what direction they'd take, but I've made it clear that I'd support whatever happens as long as it's Coogler's decision or one he's agreed to. Of course he hasn't said anything, neither has Marvel. But if THR's report is accurate (there's at least a 99% chance that it is), then that evidence suggests a recast. Maybe that's what is easier for Coogler and the crew. But of course Twitter folks don't think about that and think the world must revolve around their wants instead.

And if they have already picked their production time this soon, Marvel has already made up its mind what to do.

So really, worrying about it and going on twitter and fighting about it is pointless. Feige/Coogler/Iger have made up their mind what they want to do and they just haven't told people yet because MCU moves in silence.

I would imagine if they are recasting, they already have that deal done too. There is no way they would move to recast and not have the actor on board and announce production time. They wouldn't time crunch themselves ike that. Hell, what if they coudln't fine anyone who wanted to do it? then u'd be at production with no lead actor and would have to delay everything.

So, they either have the actor or they are moving onto Shuri. Either way, there is nothing on twitter or the internet that will influence anything at this point.

y'all just gonna have to wait and then vote with your wallet either way.

[skyvolt2000]

And if they have already picked their production time this soon, Marvel has already made up its mind what to do.

So really, worrying about it and going on twitter and fighting about it is pointless. Feige/Coogler/Iger have made up their mind what they want to do and they just haven't told people yet because MCU moves in silence.

I would imagine if they are recasting, they already have that deal done too. There is no way they would move to recast and not have the actor on board and announce production time. They wouldn't time crunch themselves ike that. Hell, what if they coudln't fine anyone who wanted to do it? then u'd be at production with no lead actor and would have to delay everything.

So, they either have the actor or they are moving onto Shuri. Either way, there is nothing on twitter or the internet that will influence anything at this point.

y'all just gonna have to wait and then vote with your wallet either way.

And if fake woke, feminists and usual suspects throw a fit that it's NOT Shuri (or Storm) let alone a black woman in that suit. Working to make that move bomb-only makes you look bad not everyone else-who understands how hard all this really was for the cast and crew.

Go ahead and make that movie bomb and yell "Marvel doesn't respect black women" narrative. Everyone is going to laugh at them. Marvel's resume says otherwise.


As for filming-nothing says they can't film everything except Panther out of costume. Since all movies and shows are not filmed in order anyway. Married with Children's pilot just refilmed Bud & Kelly's scenes after Ed O'Neil had the originals fired.

[Blind Wedjat]

While I generally agree with you , I think you are making a mistake in saying Coogler has to rewrite the entire script. They can very easily keep the script and ask if you can make another character the main focus of the same script. And yes while that is some work it isn't blowing up everything up. And then considering how other characters had large part in the other film and everyone is back, that lets you know that is another part of the film's script that doesn't need to be blown up.

Now the most telling thing to me is how they have said they aren't going to use CGI to include the late star in the film that quickly narrows down what they are going do and when you consider that they are filming so soon in July. Your point seem right to the recast but Coogler has a co writer and they have access to other writers which turns a lion task into reworking something much easier. Don't over look Marvel saying to Ryan "we like your script can you put blank character as the lead" and Ryan going let me think about and get back to you. And maybe a few days later Ryan gets back to them "we obviously have to make some changes but I can think adjust this character to be the lead".

You're right. It could mean anything actually. Although I admit I'm more comfortable with a mantle change if it's Coogler idea as opposed to Marvel's. But we'll see. They've definitely made a decision.

[Ezyo1000]

While I generally agree with you , I think you are making a mistake in saying Coogler has to rewrite the entire script. They can very easily keep the script and ask if you can make another character the main focus of the same script. And yes while that is some work it isn't blowing up everything up. And then considering how other characters had large part in the other film and everyone is back, that lets you know that is another part of the film's script that doesn't need to be blown up.

Now the most telling thing to me is how they have said they aren't going to use CGI to include the late star in the film that quickly narrows down what they are going do and when you consider that they are filming so soon in July. Your point seem right to the recast but Coogler has a co writer and they have access to other writers which turns a lion task into reworking something much easier. Don't over look Marvel saying to Ryan "we like your script can you put blank character as the lead" and Ryan going let me think about and get back to you. And maybe a few days later Ryan gets back to them "we obviously have to make some changes but I can think adjust this character to be the lead".

Well kinda but not really, it's not like you can just make another character the BP given what happened in the first movie there's alot of complications. Firstly challenge day, and the lack of the HSH. Secondly, remember how screwed everyone was when T'Challa was gone? As well as his vision for Wakanda? Those aren't thing's you can just pass onto another character and have it gel very well.

It's one of the few situation where because they developed supporting cast everyone falls into specific roles that can't just be copy pasted into another so easily.

This ain't an ensemble movie no matter how much people want to wish it just because he supporting cast actually mattered.

[chief12d]

And if fake woke, feminists and usual suspects throw a fit that it's NOT Shuri (or Storm) let alone a black woman in that suit. Working to make that move bomb-only makes you look bad not everyone else-who understands how hard all this really was for the cast and crew.

Go ahead and make that movie bomb and yell "Marvel doesn't respect black women" narrative. Everyone is going to laugh at them. Marvel's resume says otherwise.


As for filming-nothing says they can't film everything except Panther out of costume. Since all movies and shows are not filmed in order anyway. Married with Children's pilot just refilmed Bud & Kelly's scenes after Ed O'Neil had the originals fired.

Disney's track record with black women in the MCU is atrocious and worthy of all the criticism in the world. I'll say it again, Coogler and his film carry black female representation in the entire superhero genre by its damn self. It's a FEAT of cinema to be able in a single film to create 3 multidimensional, competent black female characters with defined personalities and roles in a story. The action genre has never and frankly likely will never do that again. Though I'd like to be proven wrong.

But I agree with everything else, if Coogler still wants a T'Challa in the MCU then people are going to have to accept that. Same way we're gonna have to accept it if Shuri gets the mantle. The "Marvel disrespects black women" narrative doesn't hold water in the case of a recast and to try and intentionally bomb the biggest black franchise in Hollywood because a woman isn't at the head is self-sabotage and stupidity at its finest. Talk about airing your dirty laundry and cutting off the nose to spite the face. Plus the utter futility of actively trying to cancel a film, I'd like to think we don't see that from any side of this debate regardless of what happens.

[Blind Wedjat]

I don't even know why people are acting like a recast suddenly means Shuri could never be BP or get her own shine. It might not happen immediately but it still could. Besides T'Challa was actually out of the picture for a short while and they actually shared the mantle together, with her being Queen of Wakanda and he was King of the Dead. I don't get why everything has to be an either/or situation with some people.

[chief12d]

Well kinda but not really, it's not like you can just make another character the BP given what happened in the first movie there's alot of complications. Firstly challenge day, and the lack of the HSH. Secondly, remember how screwed everyone was when T'Challa was gone? As well as his vision for Wakanda? Those aren't thing's you can just pass onto another character and have it gel very well.

It's one of the few situation where because they developed supporting cast everyone falls into specific roles that can't just be copy pasted into another so easily.

This ain't an ensemble movie no matter how much people want to wish it just because he supporting cast actually mattered.

If they change the lead, the amount of rewrites it would take would probably be substantial but who knows. Especially if it takes place in the wake of T'Challa's death, disappearance, etc. Unless they go the route of T'Challa being alive but somehow not being the BP anymore.

I imagine it'd take time to hammer out that script, longer than the filming schedule seems to indicate. Because between Challenge Day, translating the humanitarian themes of the first film, reacting to whatever happened to T'Challa, shifting character dynamics, etc... I feel that's a lot and that they would've pushed back filming further to accommodate the writers. But anything's possible I guess.

[Blind Wedjat]

If they change the lead, the amount of rewrites it would take would probably be substantial but who knows. Especially if it takes place in the wake of T'Challa's death, disappearance, etc. Unless they go the route of T'Challa being alive but somehow not being the BP anymore.

I imagine it'd take time to hammer out that script, longer than the filming schedule seems to indicate. Because between Challenge Day, translating the humanitarian themes of the first film, reacting to whatever happened to T'Challa, shifting character dynamics, etc... I feel that's a lot and that they would've pushed back filming further to accommodate the writers. But anything's possible I guess.

All of this plus actually still grieving loss. I think it's a tall order to ask of anyone to go around changing things especially with the new production start date.

[chief12d]

I don't even know why people are acting like a recast suddenly means Shuri could never be BP or get her own shine. It might not happen immediately but it still could. Besides T'Challa was actually out of the picture for a short while and they actually shared the mantle together, with her being Queen of Wakanda and he was King of the Dead. I don't get why everything has to be an either/or situation with some people.

Because some people only want Shuri lol. In their minds, to keep T'Challa around in any capacity threatens her legitimacy. So better to try and take him off the table and force an either-or situation. A portion of the MCU BP fandom have grown so attached to the side characters that Coogler expertly introduced, you have a similar situation to the X-forums.

Fans believe that THEIR character needs more lines, that the current faces of the IP are unworthy (AKA T'Challa), and that there's an agenda against their character if those fans don't get every single thing they want (misogynoir, homophobia, etc.) Now, not all fans believe all these things at once, it's a spectrum. But the same stupidity you see with X-fans online is being replicated in the BP franchise with a smaller and more popular array of cinematic characters.

And a lot of that is driven by the sheer quality of Shuri as a character and people having hope she could not just be a tentpole of the franchise, but the franchise itself, without anyone to challenge or "steal" shine from her. Part of it is driven by the need to "defend" the characters they love from an often racist, sexist fandom, as nerd culture nearly always comes hard for black women. And some of it is because of pure misandry and the desire for a franchise led by females for females, established lore and symbolic unity be damned. Simply put, black folks online with a crabs in a bucket mentality.

[Dboi654]

Because some people only want Shuri lol. In their minds, to keep T'Challa around in any capacity threatens her legitimacy. So better to try and take him off the table and force an either-or situation. A portion of the MCU BP fandom have grown so attached to the side characters that Coogler expertly introduced, you have a similar situation to the X-forums.

Fans believe that THEIR character needs more lines, that the current faces of the IP are unworthy (AKA T'Challa), and that there's an agenda against their character if those fans don't get every single thing they want (misogynoir, homophobia, etc.) Now, not all fans believe all these things at once, it's a spectrum. But the same stupidity you see with X-fans online is being replicated in the BP franchise with a smaller and more popular array of cinematic characters.

And a lot of that is driven by the sheer quality of Shuri as a character and people having hope she could not just be a tentpole of the franchise, but the franchise itself, without anyone to challenge or "steal" shine from her. Part of it is driven by the need to "defend" the characters they love from an often racist, sexist fandom, as nerd culture nearly always comes hard for black women. And some of it is because of pure misandry and the desire for a franchise led by females for females, established lore and symbolic unity be damned. Simply put, black folks online with a crabs in a bucket mentality.

And some people will go on and try as much as possible to say there is no agenda to wanting Shuri to become the new BP.

Even when Chadwick was still alive, some people were still clamouring for Shuri to be BP.

[Ezyo1000]

I don't even know why people are acting like a recast suddenly means Shuri could never be BP or get her own shine. It might not happen immediately but it still could. Besides T'Challa was actually out of the picture for a short while and they actually shared the mantle together, with her being Queen of Wakanda and he was King of the Dead. I don't get why everything has to be an either/or situation with some people.

Because they want to be "Right" or the one that "called it" because they have been pushing for this since day of the solo and if it happens now then they think they have some sort of power over what happens. Which on one hand i think a push more more representation is a good thing and people being vocal can show companies that theres a hungry demographic, however, this idea of cannibalizing one minority group for another is astronomically stupid and halts representation rather than help

[Ezyo1000]

And some people will go on and try as much as possible to say there is no agenda to wanting Shuri to become the new BP.

Even when Chadwick was still alive, some people were still clamouring for Shuri to be BP.

People were straight claiming that BP 2 Shuri was taking he mantle and Chadwick was supposedly upset about it because she was "Confirmed" as the new BP despite there being so basis behind it other then folks like Grace Randolph and WGTC.

[chief12d]

And some people will go on and try as much as possible to say there is no agenda to wanting Shuri to become the new BP.

Even when Chadwick was still alive, some people were still clamouring for Shuri to be BP.

There's definitely an agenda to it, the question is to what extent. I know a handful of people who want T'Challa written out and to have Shuri take the throne, but her gender is irrelevant. It's about telling a story that they feel honors Boseman, so I'm not gonna say EVERY instance of someone supporting Shuri is driven by a female empowerment at all costs agenda.

But I agree a large portion of the discussion surrounding her possible ascension has gender politics in it and I think it's impossible deny there wasn't clamoring for this to happen as soon as the first film came out. Both online and in the general press.

It's easy to ignore the screeching on Twitter and Youtube with these things, but the number of people who just want to see a female lead no matter what needs to happen in order to get there is higher than some would like to admit. And similarly you have people spreading rumors like "Shuri is gonna be Black Panther and Boseman is mad" to get clicks and attract alt-right neckbeards to their sites. All while trying to ally with black men in their culture wars. Fandom is increasingly toxic and manipulative, especially in the digital age, and many of the influencers and scoopers in it all got their biases and agendas.