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  1. #2911
    Incredible Member KingNomarch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ekie View Post
    Whether you agree or not, its become the prevailing thought and has lead to calls for others to lead. So it's reality. If it was that untrue then it wouldn't be such a prevailing sentiment.
    That's not how something being reality works. For it to be true it needs to be fact. For example MCU Spider-Man gets called the best version because he's just like comic Peter. If you compare MCU Peter to 616 Peter, that's far from true. Now if you do CW BP vs BP from the solo, CW is the weaker in nearly every way. The only thing that CW BP might have over him is running speed.
    Last edited by KingNomarch; 04-22-2020 at 11:01 AM.

  2. #2912
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vibranium Weave View Post
    Is there any validity to the rumors regarding Chadwick Boseman and the next Black Panther movie? The sources reporting have been "Cosmic News" & "We have this covered", so I am not convinced. But since no one at Marvel has refuted the claims, I wonder.
    YOu can't take anything as valid at this point. It's just internet junk. Fun to talk about if you don't take it TOO seriously, but always with a grain of salt.

  3. #2913

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    Also a dab of wishful thinking. The same people who thought BP would barely make Doctor Strange numbers didn't vanish when it instead broke records. The last thing THEY'D want is a BP2 with the same lead actor doing the same.

  4. #2914
    Incredible Member KingNomarch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vibranium Weave View Post
    Is there any validity to the rumors regarding Chadwick Boseman and the next Black Panther movie? The sources reporting have been "Cosmic News" & "We have this covered", so I am not convinced. But since no one at Marvel has refuted the claims, I wonder.
    These are the same people that said Bucky and Team Cap were going to show up in the final battle of BP and that there will be Storm mentions. They also said that Shuri would be BP and Queen in A4.

  5. #2915
    Mighty Member dkrook's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by taozen View Post
    I think part of this comes from how T'Challa is written in the Black Panther movie. He is basically a cypher for Wakanda and most of the really dynamic parts in film come from the characters around him. Think about the emotionally powerful Killmonger scenes, the comedy and brilliance from Shuri, Okoye's stern strength and Nakia pragmatic outreach. T'Challa reacts to everything around him but does not push the narrative. Coogler stated in an interview that he at first did not get or really like T'Challa. She saw him as a really too privileged character and you can see that in how Killmonger was written. I think that is why so many people are passionate about Shuri, Okoye and other characters in the film.

    I for one think that the MCU T'Challa pales in comparison to the comic book T'Challa. I believe that CA: Civil War T'Challa is a more powerful character that BP movie T'Challa. It's hard to believe that it is the same character. Where is the physics genius? That was given to Shui. Shuri did say in one line that T'Challa designed the Civil War armor but we never see his intelligent strategic mind besides deciding to fight Killmonger in the train railway.

    Most of the characters around T'Challa have the truly moving dynamic lines. Think about Killmonger beating T'Challa in the challenge fight and him yelling, "Is this your King? Is this your protector?" When T'Challa defeats Eric, Eric is the one to say "Hell of a move." T'Challa says nothing until he says we may be able to save you. And Killmonger get the most powerful line in the movie when he dies. I remember reading the Black Panther vs Deadpool mini and Deadpool actually says "That movie version of you is way nicer than the comic book version." Okoyes get powerful moments especially when confronting her husband when he asks if she will kill him. M'Baku has his great moments. My point is I have seen people post memes and ideas Shuri, Nakia and even Okoye as BP in the future. T'Challa was written as this stoic, quietly confident roll that is likable but not a dynamic lead. That is why I believe you are seeing so many Shuri as BP memes and post. It's a direct reflection of how T'Challa was written in his movie.
    If we're talking about the comics T'challa by Priest, Liss and Hudlin, yes agreed they're better. To lean into the movies, well I would have to put that on writers. CW Panther wasn't bad, but it was just an intro. Endgame, our boy got played hard! Watching the deleted footage and concepts there were two scenes that would have cemented T'challa as THE guy. One had him take down an alien craft and one that had him taking on Black Dwarf. Even with all that each time I saw the movie in the theater Panther's appearance garnered the same level of cheers as Cap with hammer. His solo made too much bank international for the to even consider swapping him for Shuri. I hate how they diminished T'challa to help build her up. The second movie needs to focus on T'challa and his progression. Bast has put special favor on T'challa over all previous Black Panthers, we deserve to see why that is. If Chadwick is sick, and/or doesn't want the role anymore then they should fine a strong black male actor they're comfortable with and build around him.

  6. #2916
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingNomarch View Post
    CW T'Challa being stronger is almost laughable. I can pick basically any one feat he did in BP that stops everything he did in CW. What genius was there in CW? He was an idiot who strategy was 99% just attack. What's wore is that he was the only person fighting seriously in Civil War most of the time while everybody else wasn't and he walked away with more Ls than anybody. It was especially sad when he got schooled by Cap(who was holding back) when he had WM supporting him or the fact he was restrained by Hawkeye.

    What feat in CW did T'Challa have that's equal or greater than nearly throwing someone through a truck? When it comes to intelligence, especially when it comes to strategy, you wasnt paying attention if you think it was showcased only during the train fight. The best example of his strategic mind is during the forest fight. There's no discussion that can be made about CW T'Challa having a plan on that level.



    No they didn't. The only one to have any "deep" lines or moments is Killmonger. Shuri had none of that, she was the comedic relief and neither did Nakia. If Okoye and W'Kabi's relationship was more fleshed out than this would be true but it wasn't. Neither Nakia or Okoye get post about becoming BP in the future. Shuri gets it because of comics and everyone thinking that it was going to happen after IW where he died. All the powerful/deep moments came from T'Challa and Killmonger. If the scene with W'Kabi wasn't deleted then an argument could be made for Okoye but she really only has one compared to the multiple that T'Challa and Erik has. For T'Challa to have been stoic, he'd have to have been emotionless which isn't the case and he has the most emotional moments in the film.

    I also think the forest fight is was well done but the way it was shot at night and how it was edited, it was difficult to see all the great moves T'Challa performed.


    In Civil War I was not talking about physical feats but the T'Challa in CW was closer the to the comic version. He has a stronger characterization. My point is that T'Challa in BP is cypher for Wakanda. BP is more of a Killmonger movie than a BP movie. For instance, what does T'Challa want in the first act of the film? To be King? Well he was acting king and is crowned after one challenge. As a protagonist, he should have a goal. Now think of Killmonger. What does he want? He wants the throne. The film's first major scene is his father being killed and the film truly ends when he gets to witness the Wakanda sunset.

    What is T'Challa's biggest revelation from the film? That Wakanda should share it knowledge with the rest of the world. You mean what Nakia was telling him early on in the film? Now did T'Challa ever say he was against that? No he did not. Does he even state that he is for it. He says that is not Wakanda's way. My point is that he is a cypher and we really never see what he wants until he confronts his father in the spirit realm. Most films the protagonist wants something and the antagonist keeps them from their goal. Killmonger wants to be king and T'Challa is the guy preventing him from being king. So he defeats him by throwing him off of the waterfall and becomes King. But Eric loses in the end to T'Challa. But T'Challa victory is not nearly a powerful moment at Killmonger's. That movie ends when Killmonger dies overlooking the sunset. The child who father is killed; finds his way back home to see the thing he always dreamed about. Killmonger is basically Batman from Oakland where Coogler is from. His parent is killed. He trains his mind and body to become a weapon to right the wrong he believes that was done to him. T'Challa is his antagonist who is keeping Eric from getting what he wants. I often wonder what kind of T'Challa we would have gotten if Michael B Jordan was T'Challa since he is Coogler's acting muse.

  7. #2917
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    Quote Originally Posted by dkrook View Post
    If we're talking about the comics T'challa by Priest, Liss and Hudlin, yes agreed they're better. To lean into the movies, well I would have to put that on writers. CW Panther wasn't bad, but it was just an intro. Endgame, our boy got played hard! Watching the deleted footage and concepts there were two scenes that would have cemented T'challa as THE guy. One had him take down an alien craft and one that had him taking on Black Dwarf. Even with all that each time I saw the movie in the theater Panther's appearance garnered the same level of cheers as Cap with hammer. His solo made too much bank international for the to even consider swapping him for Shuri. I hate how they diminished T'challa to help build her up. The second movie needs to focus on T'challa and his progression. Bast has put special favor on T'challa over all previous Black Panthers, we deserve to see why that is. If Chadwick is sick, and/or doesn't want the role anymore then they should fine a strong black male actor they're comfortable with and build around him.
    I agree with you 100%. The way the BP film was written, T'Challa is BP due to being the oldest child to the king. That and one challenge fight. Or even a line as to why the other tribal champions did not challenge T'Challa. Something as simple as T'Challa has defeated all of the other champions in the past during their specialized training. It would have been more earned if he had to go against each of the tribal champions and then beat M'Baku. Also I just want to see his best attribute in action which is his mind. Specifically his genius and his ability to be several steps ahead of his enemies.

  8. #2918
    Incredible Member KingNomarch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by taozen View Post
    I also think the forest fight is was well done but the way it was shot at night and how it was edited, it was difficult to see all the great moves T'Challa performed.
    The only time i had trouble seeing this was in 3D.


    In Civil War I was not talking about physical feats but the T'Challa in CW was closer the to the comic version. He has a stronger characterization. My point is that T'Challa in BP is cypher for Wakanda. BP is more of a Killmonger movie than a BP movie. For instance, what does T'Challa want in the first act of the film? To be King? Well he was acting king and is crowned after one challenge. As a protagonist, he should have a goal. Now think of Killmonger. What does he want? He wants the throne. The film's first major scene is his father being killed and the film truly ends when he gets to witness the Wakanda sunset.

    CW T'Challa was far from comic T'Challa. He wasn't McGregor, Priest, Hudlin, Liss, Lee/Kirby, none. Especially how easily he was fooled into going after Bucky with paper thin evidence going against him and then there was how he went about going against him. Solo BP is significantly closer to 616 T'Challa. He was 80% McGregor with the remaining 20 split between Priest and Hudlin. The movie as a whole can be called an adaption of McGregor's work which Priest seem to think. Stronger characterization, like what? Up until near the end of CW he was written like most of the terrible MCU villains and his arc was nowhere near as fleshed out as people claim. You say he doesn't have a goal when it was obvious: T'Challa wanted to be a good king and protect Wakanda like his father and ancestors before him. Every decision that he made was to achieve that goal and Erik threatened that by wanting to use his home to wage war against the world which would've ended poorly for Wakanda.

    What is T'Challa's biggest revelation from the film? That Wakanda should share it knowledge with the rest of the world. You mean what Nakia was telling him early on in the film? Now did T'Challa ever say he was against that? No he did not. Does he even state that he is for it. He says that is not Wakanda's way. My point is that he is a cypher and we really never see what he wants until he confronts his father in the spirit realm. Most films the protagonist wants something and the antagonist keeps them from their goal. Killmonger wants to be king and T'Challa is the guy preventing him from being king. So he defeats him by throwing him off of the waterfall and becomes King. But Eric loses in the end to T'Challa. But T'Challa victory is not nearly a powerful moment at Killmonger's. That movie ends when Killmonger dies overlooking the sunset. The child who father is killed; finds his way back home to see the thing he always dreamed about. Killmonger is basically Batman from Oakland where Coogler is from. His parent is killed. He trains his mind and body to become a weapon to right the wrong he believes that was done to him. T'Challa is his antagonist who is keeping Eric from getting what he wants. I often wonder what kind of T'Challa we would have gotten if Michael B Jordan was T'Challa since he is Coogler's acting muse.

    Already addressed most of this so i won't bother repeating myself. T'Challa's biggest revalation wasn't that they should share, it was that everything that he believed was wrong. T'Challa put his father on too high of a pedestal and believed that his father was god, that he could do no wrong and that he never failed him. He modeled himself after his dad and planned on ruling just like him. He learns that his father wasn't the man that he thought he was, that he killed his own brother, lied about it and abandoned his nephew with nothing. At the end T'Challa had the strongest "victory" because that moment was more emotional than Erik's "victory". He saved Wakanda and the world, brought the Jabari back into the fold after centuries, but at what cost? The cousin that he saw as the victim of Wakanda's sins chooses death over life. T'Challa's scene where it's revealed that he's turning the place where T'Chaka murdered N'Jobu into Wakanda's first outreach center, thus fulfilling N'Jobu's desire for Wakanda to help with a kid that's supposed to represent Erik nearby was essentially another more powerful win.

  9. #2919
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ekie View Post
    Whether you agree or not, its become the prevailing thought and has lead to calls for others to lead. So it's reality. If it was that untrue then it wouldn't be such a prevailing sentiment.
    It's not the prevailing thought. It's a handful of people on the net spurred on by unfounded rumors.

  10. #2920
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingNomarch View Post
    The only time i had trouble seeing this was in 3D.





    CW T'Challa was far from comic T'Challa. He wasn't McGregor, Priest, Hudlin, Liss, Lee/Kirby, none. Especially how easily he was fooled into going after Bucky with paper thin evidence going against him and then there was how he went about going against him. Solo BP is significantly closer to 616 T'Challa. He was 80% McGregor with the remaining 20 split between Priest and Hudlin. The movie as a whole can be called an adaption of McGregor's work which Priest seem to think. Stronger characterization, like what? Up until near the end of CW he was written like most of the terrible MCU villains and his arc was nowhere near as fleshed out as people claim. You say he doesn't have a goal when it was obvious: T'Challa wanted to be a good king and protect Wakanda like his father and ancestors before him. Every decision that he made was to achieve that goal and Erik threatened that by wanting to use his home to wage war against the world which would've ended poorly for Wakanda.




    Already addressed most of this so i won't bother repeating myself. T'Challa's biggest revalation wasn't that they should share, it was that everything that he believed was wrong. T'Challa put his father on too high of a pedestal and believed that his father was god, that he could do no wrong and that he never failed him. He modeled himself after his dad and planned on ruling just like him. He learns that his father wasn't the man that he thought he was, that he killed his own brother, lied about it and abandoned his nephew with nothing. At the end T'Challa had the strongest "victory" because that moment was more emotional than Erik's "victory". He saved Wakanda and the world, brought the Jabari back into the fold after centuries, but at what cost? The cousin that he saw as the victim of Wakanda's sins chooses death over life. T'Challa's scene where it's revealed that he's turning the place where T'Chaka murdered N'Jobu into Wakanda's first outreach center, thus fulfilling N'Jobu's desire for Wakanda to help with a kid that's supposed to represent Erik nearby was essentially another more powerful win.
    I agree with all of this. T'Challa's goal was to be like his father and to be the leader he would've been in an increasingly dangerous world. His first act as king was to defeat the enemy that had eluded his father for over a decade. But a compelling conflict is created when he discovers his father wasn't the saint he had seen him to be. And that his disregard for the life of one child reflected how Wakanda had turned it's back on a world that needs Wakanda to step up. T'Challa got a full arc in the film and just because Shuri was good comic relief and Okoye sorta outshone him in one fight scene doesn't really mean he was simply a cipher. Especially when as I'm sure we'll find out in future films, T'Challa won't have the full support of the Wakandan people in this controversial direction he's taking.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nate Grey View Post
    Also a dab of wishful thinking. The same people who thought BP would barely make Doctor Strange numbers didn't vanish when it instead broke records. The last thing THEY'D want is a BP2 with the same lead actor doing the same.
    This is what I think is driving a lot of the speculation. "Fans" who are concerned about BP's box office/cultural dominance or who want to promote a black woman solo film no matter the cost are the main outlets I've seen promoting the idea.
    Last edited by chief12d; 04-22-2020 at 12:53 PM.

  11. #2921
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingNomarch View Post
    The only time i had trouble seeing this was in 3D.





    CW T'Challa was far from comic T'Challa. He wasn't McGregor, Priest, Hudlin, Liss, Lee/Kirby, none. Especially how easily he was fooled into going after Bucky with paper thin evidence going against him and then there was how he went about going against him. Solo BP is significantly closer to 616 T'Challa. He was 80% McGregor with the remaining 20 split between Priest and Hudlin. The movie as a whole can be called an adaption of McGregor's work which Priest seem to think. Stronger characterization, like what? Up until near the end of CW he was written like most of the terrible MCU villains and his arc was nowhere near as fleshed out as people claim. You say he doesn't have a goal when it was obvious: T'Challa wanted to be a good king and protect Wakanda like his father and ancestors before him. Every decision that he made was to achieve that goal and Erik threatened that by wanting to use his home to wage war against the world which would've ended poorly for Wakanda.




    Already addressed most of this so i won't bother repeating myself. T'Challa's biggest revalation wasn't that they should share, it was that everything that he believed was wrong. T'Challa put his father on too high of a pedestal and believed that his father was god, that he could do no wrong and that he never failed him. He modeled himself after his dad and planned on ruling just like him. He learns that his father wasn't the man that he thought he was, that he killed his own brother, lied about it and abandoned his nephew with nothing. At the end T'Challa had the strongest "victory" because that moment was more emotional than Erik's "victory". He saved Wakanda and the world, brought the Jabari back into the fold after centuries, but at what cost? The cousin that he saw as the victim of Wakanda's sins chooses death over life. T'Challa's scene where it's revealed that he's turning the place where T'Chaka murdered N'Jobu into Wakanda's first outreach center, thus fulfilling N'Jobu's desire for Wakanda to help with a kid that's supposed to represent Erik nearby was essentially another more powerful win.
    You make very valid points. My point is that in the film T'Challa never says that he wants to rule like his father. He never states that I want to be a good king. He never says any of that. He never says what HE want to do? He never pushes the narrative of the story. The other characters state what they believe Wakanda should do. BP usually put Wakanda first and that is what his father did. My point is in the way the story is constructed, Killmonger is the protagonist. We find out what he wants. He takes steps to achieve his goal and he will do anything to achieve it. T'Challa is in the way and he threw him off a waterfall to achieve his goal. He is eventually stopped and its a bit tragic. His character is so compelling that a large portion of the audience ignore the fact that he is a sociopath and there were even post of "Killmonger is right." I just want a movie where T'Challa is not just reactive to everyone's ideas and where we see the characteristics that makes him so compelling. Something beyond the abstract and passive I want to be a good king which is just implied. I just want a more proactive protagonist in T'Challa.

  12. #2922
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingNomarch View Post
    I really don't understand the obsession of trying to get rid of T'Challa.
    Its the fear of a powerful Black man. The minute black men aren't shown as gangbangers, pimps, drug slingers, or convicts, there's an immediate push to sideline them or replace them, kill them off or have them come out as gay Under the guise of being "progressive" but it's used as a way to try and make them seem less threatening.

    It's very obvious and surprising that people just accept this without question

  13. #2923
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingNomarch View Post
    CW T'Challa being stronger is almost laughable. I can pick basically any one feat he did in BP that stops everything he did in CW. What genius was there in CW? He was an idiot who strategy was 99% just attack. What's wore is that he was the only person fighting seriously in Civil War most of the time while everybody else wasn't and he walked away with more Ls than anybody. It was especially sad when he got schooled by Cap(who was holding back) when he had WM supporting him or the fact he was restrained by Hawkeye.

    What feat in CW did T'Challa have that's equal or greater than nearly throwing someone through a truck? When it comes to intelligence, especially when it comes to strategy, you wasnt paying attention if you think it was showcased only during the train fight. The best example of his strategic mind is during the forest fight. There's no discussion that can be made about CW T'Challa having a plan on that level.



    No they didn't. The only one to have any "deep" lines or moments is Killmonger. Shuri had none of that, she was the comedic relief and neither did Nakia. If Okoye and W'Kabi's relationship was more fleshed out than this would be true but it wasn't. Neither Nakia or Okoye get post about becoming BP in the future. Shuri gets it because of comics and everyone thinking that it was going to happen after IW where he died. All the powerful/deep moments came from T'Challa and Killmonger. If the scene with W'Kabi wasn't deleted then an argument could be made for Okoye but she really only has one compared to the multiple that T'Challa and Erik has. For T'Challa to have been stoic, he'd have to have been emotionless which isn't the case and he has the most emotional moments in the film.
    This

    Honestly, T'Challas all of you were wrong speech imo was the best moment out of everyone who got speeches. It's the dynamic turning point, he learns the truth and decides to do the right thing, Erik learned the truth and Wanted to burn everything to the ground. Both had Amazing moments, both had powerful messages.

    People tend tk forget that alot of those great moments for Shuri or Nakia or Okoye, Erik etc. Are facilitated by T'Challa. He wears so many hats and plays those roles so masterfully it's insane. Like, I don't think people realize this. When Tony, cap or Thor interacted with people, they generally had the same mannerism when they spoke be it friends, LI or villains. T'Challa spoke abd acted differently depending on who he was talking to. He talked to Shuri like siblings would, he talked to Okoye like a friend, he talked to his mother in respectful tones. For Erik, Mbaku and Klaw he spoke with a no bullisht tone. Just because he was slinging out quips or cracking jokes people overlook his performance in favor of what the other performances but it was T'Challas responses that allowed those to happen

  14. #2924
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    Quote Originally Posted by taozen View Post
    You make very valid points. My point is that in the film T'Challa never says that he wants to rule like his father. He never states that I want to be a good king. He never says any of that. He never says what HE want to do? He never pushes the narrative of the story. The other characters state what they believe Wakanda should do. BP usually put Wakanda first and that is what his father did. My point is in the way the story is constructed, Killmonger is the protagonist. We find out what he wants. He takes steps to achieve his goal and he will do anything to achieve it. T'Challa is in the way and he threw him off a waterfall to achieve his goal. He is eventually stopped and its a bit tragic. His character is so compelling that a large portion of the audience ignore the fact that he is a sociopath and there were even post of "Killmonger is right." I just want a movie where T'Challa is not just reactive to everyone's ideas and where we see the characteristics that makes him so compelling. Something beyond the abstract and passive I want to be a good king which is just implied. I just want a more proactive protagonist in T'Challa.
    From 3:35 to 4:02



    Although he said "great king" instead of "good king", thesaurus list the word "great" as a synonym under "good", so take it as you will. https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/good?s=t

  15. #2925
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    Quote Originally Posted by taozen View Post
    You make very valid points. My point is that in the film T'Challa never says that he wants to rule like his father. He never states that I want to be a good king. He never says any of that. He never says what HE want to do? He never pushes the narrative of the story. The other characters state what they believe Wakanda should do. BP usually put Wakanda first and that is what his father did. My point is in the way the story is constructed, Killmonger is the protagonist. We find out what he wants. He takes steps to achieve his goal and he will do anything to achieve it. T'Challa is in the way and he threw him off a waterfall to achieve his goal. He is eventually stopped and its a bit tragic. His character is so compelling that a large portion of the audience ignore the fact that he is a sociopath and there were even post of "Killmonger is right." I just want a movie where T'Challa is not just reactive to everyone's ideas and where we see the characteristics that makes him so compelling. Something beyond the abstract and passive I want to be a good king which is just implied. I just want a more proactive protagonist in T'Challa.
    Uh what? Did you forget the whole ancestral plane scene when T'Challa first sees his father after his death and he states exactly what he wants to do? Do you know why he asks the opinions of his people? Because his father says, (not verbatim) "you will struggle, so surround yourself with people you trust" as well as the whole it's hard for a good man to be King. Also his goal was also to catch klaue which leads to the chain of events learning the truth from Zuri, confronting his father and ancestors, bringing the jabari back and uniting all of Wakanda. Something that hadn't been done since Wakanda was first United. Also he wasn't reactive to others ideas. They gave their opinions and he made his decisions based on weighing options. You know, like a true leader would do. He isn't a self centered narcissist who does whatever he wants regardless of what others say and they just gotta deal like other heroes, his decisions effect million's of lives. No other hero in the MCU is like that

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