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  1. #2926
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    Uh what? Did you forget the whole ancestral plane scene when T'Challa first sees his father after his death and he states exactly what he wants to do? Do you know why he asks the opinions of his people? Because his father says, (not verbatim) "you will struggle, so surround yourself with people you trust" as well as the whole it's hard for a good man to be King. Also his goal was also to catch klaue which leads to the chain of events learning the truth from Zuri, confronting his father and ancestors, bringing the jabari back and uniting all of Wakanda. Something that hadn't been done since Wakanda was first United. Also he wasn't reactive to others ideas. They gave their opinions and he made his decisions based on weighing options. You know, like a true leader would do. He isn't a self centered narcissist who does whatever he wants regardless of what others say and they just gotta deal like other heroes, his decisions effect million's of lives. No other hero in the MCU is like that
    That was in the 3rd act and conclusion of the film. I was talking about in the 1st act. T'Challa never says was HE wants in the first few acts. He never say what he believes the path Wakanda should take in the first two act. His advisors and supporters tell them what they want but T'Challa does not. He does not stay for example that "I believe that Wakanda should remain hidden because we must keep her protected." Then the story pushes him to go the other direction. T'Challa basically represents Wakanda as its cypher and you get Nakia and W'kabi opposing point of views. When W'Kabi tells him that he does not want to bring refugees in, which is what Nakia wants, and that he will support T'Challa if he wants implement change through force outside of Wakanda. T'Challa says that has not been Wakanda's or our way. Can't remember which. In the beginning he just wants Klaw. Now when he is thrown from the waterfall and returns, the beginning of the 3rd act, then he has purpose and a real goal. To become King again. My basic point is that Killmonger is the protagonist in the film. He is the advocate or champion of a particular cause or idea which is to take control of Wakanda. To send weapons to all oppressed Black people around the world and start a revolution. He studied, fought, lied and killed for that moment to be King. T'Challa is the main hero but Eric is the protagonist. T'Challa's follow up to Eric's idea is to establish Wakandan science and social out reach centers. Yep that was as moving as Killmonger's idea/plan? Right?

  2. #2927
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    Quote Originally Posted by XJlock View Post
    From 3:35 to 4:02



    Although he said "great king" instead of "good king", thesaurus list the word "great" as a synonym under "good", so take it as you will. https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/good?s=t
    So he wants to be a great king. That is his goal of the movie? That is a very abstract and subjective goal to push a narrative of a film. Compare that to Killmonger's goal. I will lie, cheat, steal and kill to be King so that I can forcefully free the oppressed African people of the world. White narrative is stronger as a story point of view? That is really my point.

  3. #2928
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Even T'Challa was holding back to some degree against everyone except Bucky. He obviously didn't want to kill or even seriously hurt anyone else.

    I don't think anyone looked bad there.
    This. I don't understand why anyone would suggest T'Challa was fighting harder than anyone else except when it came to him and Bucky. T'Challa first and foremost isn't an idiot and he's no murderer. He was definitely holding back and he clearly has respect for the likes of Cap who he acknowledged when he arrived at the airport and he certainly wasn't going to go around and kill everyone just to get to Bucky. Speaking of Bucky, T'Challa had him dead to rights on at least 3 separate occasions and was saved...barely.

    I get that some people rate the BP solo movie highly and feel T'Challa had a better showing but in the grand scheme of things presentation is also very important and overall it's how T'Challa's presentation was unravelled which is why many people find T'Challa boring in his own movie and far more exciting to watch in the other movies he's appeared in.

    For me, the solo movie did a better job showcasing his physical strength but the presentation of his capabilities lacked consistency. The Nigerian jungle fight was great but we saw no such speed and fight choreography that matched or came close to that in his subsequent action scenes. The warrior falls fights were decent but they were elevated by the emotion of the onlookers rather than the fights themselves. The casino fight was stolen by Okoye and T'Challa's display looked clunky. Where was the smooth and more impressive display akin to when T'Challa fought Bucky without his suit in Civil War?

    I personally want to see more of T'Challa's intellect on display and I want to see a far more superior fight choreography for him to utilise. The Cap movies showed Cap's dexterity as a strategist and an incredible fighter with the latter kicked in to high gear for Cap 2 WS. T'Challa legit needs to be afforded the same respect that's true to his character. Watching the black panther fight concepts is so depressing because its a testament to what could have and should be and we barely got a fraction of it.

    If we got action like the below, trust me, nobody word be talking rubbish about replacing T'Challa:

    https://youtu.be/cRq2OA02Z5E

    https://youtu.be/5D67kecRbg8

  4. #2929
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chesterfield View Post
    This. I don't understand why anyone would suggest T'Challa was fighting harder than anyone else except when it came to him and Bucky. T'Challa first and foremost isn't an idiot and he's no murderer. He was definitely holding back and he clearly has respect for the likes of Cap who he acknowledged when he arrived at the airport and he certainly wasn't going to go around and kill everyone just to get to Bucky. Speaking of Bucky, T'Challa had him dead to rights on at least 3 separate occasions and was saved...barely.

    I get that some people rate the BP solo movie highly and feel T'Challa had a better showing but in the grand scheme of things presentation is also very important and overall it's how T'Challa's presentation was unravelled which is why many people find T'Challa boring in his own movie and far more exciting to watch in the other movies he's appeared in.

    For me, the solo movie did a better job showcasing his physical strength but the presentation of his capabilities lacked consistency. The Nigerian jungle fight was great but we saw no such speed and fight choreography that matched or came close to that in his subsequent action scenes. The warrior falls fights were decent but they were elevated by the emotion of the onlookers rather than the fights themselves. The casino fight was stolen by Okoye and T'Challa's display looked clunky. Where was the smooth and more impressive display akin to when T'Challa fought Bucky without his suit in Civil War?

    I personally want to see more of T'Challa's intellect on display and I want to see a far more superior fight choreography for him to utilise. The Cap movies showed Cap's dexterity as a strategist and an incredible fighter with the latter kicked in to high gear for Cap 2 WS. T'Challa legit needs to be afforded the same respect that's true to his character. Watching the black panther fight concepts is so depressing because its a testament to what could have and should be and we barely got a fraction of it.

    If we got action like the below, trust me, nobody word be talking rubbish about replacing T'Challa:

    https://youtu.be/cRq2OA02Z5E

    https://youtu.be/5D67kecRbg8
    The Winter Soldier movie and Civil War, I read, consulted with the John Wick fight choreographer, Jonathan Eusebio, when may account for them being so well done. I thought the forest fight was really well done but you just could not see it really well due to it being night and the edits. I even liked the weapon work choreography during waterfall challenge fights in the film. The Okoye spear scene in the casino was well done. I just thought the hand to hand fighting was a bit weak or just nothing special in BP.

  5. #2930
    Mighty Member Blind Wedjat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vibranium Weave View Post
    Is there any validity to the rumors regarding Chadwick Boseman and the next Black Panther movie? The sources reporting have been "Cosmic News" & "We have this covered", so I am not convinced. But since no one at Marvel has refuted the claims, I wonder.
    Cosmic News is popular with the Alt-Right, and We Got This Covered has a different scoop every month. They're both unreliable sources and shouldn't be listened too. Other sites including the Marvel Studios Spoilers subreddit have blocked people from using them as a source.

    There is no evidence that Chadwick Boseman wants out of Black Panther, or Marvel Studios wants to replace him with Shuri. I think a lot of us are seeing separate things that have a correlation but not a causation, or might not even have a correlation in the first place. Shuri becoming the next Black Panther has been a constant rumour since Infinity War dusted T'Challa but left her fate unanswered, but that was quickly disproven by the Endgame trailer. This rumour continues to persist simply because it happened in the comics and the character is a fan favourite. Yet, Letitia Wright, Chadwick Boseman, Ryan Coogler, Joe Robert Cole, Nate Moore and Kevin Feige haven't even hinted towards this development AT ALL.

  6. #2931
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    @taozen I definitely agree. T'Challa is one of the best fighters in the MU, let's see it!

  7. #2932
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    Quote Originally Posted by taozen View Post
    That was in the 3rd act and conclusion of the film. I was talking about in the 1st act. T'Challa never says was HE wants in the first few acts. He never say what he believes the path Wakanda should take in the first two act. His advisors and supporters tell them what they want but T'Challa does not. He does not stay for example that "I believe that Wakanda should remain hidden because we must keep her protected." Then the story pushes him to go the other direction. T'Challa basically represents Wakanda as its cypher and you get Nakia and W'kabi opposing point of views. When W'Kabi tells him that he does not want to bring refugees in, which is what Nakia wants, and that he will support T'Challa if he wants implement change through force outside of Wakanda. T'Challa says that has not been Wakanda's or our way. Can't remember which. In the beginning he just wants Klaw. Now when he is thrown from the waterfall and returns, the beginning of the 3rd act, then he has purpose and a real goal. To become King again. My basic point is that Killmonger is the protagonist in the film. He is the advocate or champion of a particular cause or idea which is to take control of Wakanda. To send weapons to all oppressed Black people around the world and start a revolution. He studied, fought, lied and killed for that moment to be King. T'Challa is the main hero but Eric is the protagonist. T'Challa's follow up to Eric's idea is to establish Wakandan science and social out reach centers. Yep that was as moving as Killmonger's idea/plan? Right?
    When he goes to the astral plane (the first time) is after the challenge with Mbaku, where he is officially crowned King. That's where he says very clearly his goals, and his father tells him what he is going to need to do in order to be a great king. Hence again why he goes to the people he trusts and asks them their opinions as he was in the process of figuring out the direction for Wakanda. T'Challa does state his opinion to Nakia when she talks about opening the world, which was that if people knew what Wakanda was capable of, then that could threaten their way of life. So he is showing his hesitation to open up, and help to Nakia, and also opposes W'kabis opinion of going out and conquering. Going after Klaw wasn't his primary objective until after his talk with his father in the ancestral plane talks to Nakia and wkabi.

    And no, Erik just wanted revenge, infact you complain about T'Challa not being the driving force or not making decisions, well Coogler the entire movie shows the contrast between T'Challa and Erik, having them lose their fathers (in CW and in BP they are both shown cradling their dead father's in the same manner) become King and show how they deal with their anger. T'Challa doesn't let it consume him Erik does, and goes on to just do whatever he wants regardless of how that would effect Wakanda, anyone's opinions or how he wasn't trying to start a rebellion but to shuffle around the ones in power.

    And finally, yes T'Challas idea was more moving then Erik's because it was for the actual betterment of the world. He United Wakanda (something that was never done) opened the doors to the world and started on the path to help, saved Erik's old neighborhood and confronted his father's sins and his ancestors and did the right thing. Much more moving by a long shot

  8. #2933
    Mighty Member Blind Wedjat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by taozen View Post
    So he wants to be a great king. That is his goal of the movie? That is a very abstract and subjective goal to push a narrative of a film. Compare that to Killmonger's goal. I will lie, cheat, steal and kill to be King so that I can forcefully free the oppressed African people of the world. White narrative is stronger as a story point of view? That is really my point.
    I don't see how this is abstract at all. T'Challa idolised his father and wanted to continue his legacy. He thinks the way to do that is by being a "great king", and his idea of what a great king is comes from what T'Chaka was and did. That is, keeping and maintaining Wakanda's traditions and isolationism. You might think that makes him a cypher but he's a king. His actions and desires are meant to be somewhat selfless.

    Killmonger on the other hand, is extremely selfish. Everything he wanted to do was his way of dealing with his own anger and trauma, even if he disguised that as being for a greater good. It's what makes him an effective villain, but it's also what makes him the villain and not the hero.

    Personally I see the writing of this film existing on a slightly higher level than what we had been given for the last ten years in superhero film. Yes, it's not the first superhero film to have a villain that poses as a stark contrast to the hero, but it's probably the first one in the MCU that goes beyond a conceptual level with this and goes beyond the surface. T'Challa is everything Killmonger isn't, and that's the point.

    Also, T'Challa's advisors tell him what to do half of the time. That's why he has them. That's why any leader has them. How many superheroes do you know that have advisors? You can't expect them to act or be explored the same way.

  9. #2934
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chesterfield View Post
    This. I don't understand why anyone would suggest T'Challa was fighting harder than anyone else except when it came to him and Bucky. T'Challa first and foremost isn't an idiot and he's no murderer. He was definitely holding back and he clearly has respect for the likes of Cap who he acknowledged when he arrived at the airport and he certainly wasn't going to go around and kill everyone just to get to Bucky. Speaking of Bucky, T'Challa had him dead to rights on at least 3 separate occasions and was saved...barely.

    I get that some people rate the BP solo movie highly and feel T'Challa had a better showing but in the grand scheme of things presentation is also very important and overall it's how T'Challa's presentation was unravelled which is why many people find T'Challa boring in his own movie and far more exciting to watch in the other movies he's appeared in.

    For me, the solo movie did a better job showcasing his physical strength but the presentation of his capabilities lacked consistency. The Nigerian jungle fight was great but we saw no such speed and fight choreography that matched or came close to that in his subsequent action scenes. The warrior falls fights were decent but they were elevated by the emotion of the onlookers rather than the fights themselves. The casino fight was stolen by Okoye and T'Challa's display looked clunky. Where was the smooth and more impressive display akin to when T'Challa fought Bucky without his suit in Civil War?

    I personally want to see more of T'Challa's intellect on display and I want to see a far more superior fight choreography for him to utilise. The Cap movies showed Cap's dexterity as a strategist and an incredible fighter with the latter kicked in to high gear for Cap 2 WS. T'Challa legit needs to be afforded the same respect that's true to his character. Watching the black panther fight concepts is so depressing because its a testament to what could have and should be and we barely got a fraction of it.

    If we got action like the below, trust me, nobody word be talking rubbish about replacing T'Challa:

    https://youtu.be/cRq2OA02Z5E

    https://youtu.be/5D67kecRbg8
    Seriously CW BP is honestly over hyped because when you break it down, he looked cool sure because he is this mysterious quiet character, who is just in Terminator mode, but but that's it. He didn't actually get any solid wins, and frakking Hawkeye gets the upper hand on him? Compare this to his solo where he is rag dolling people left and right?

    Also when you only have a small window of time, yeah you can do alot and make a character steal the spotlight, why,? Because they aren't the driving force behind the movie. They aren't the focus. That's why Shuri stick's out, and Mbaku and Okoye. They aren't the focus. You can't make a quiet, Terminator mode T'Challa for 2 hours because then he lacks development. There has to be range. And Honestly I'm surprised how much people ignore that

  10. #2935
    Mighty Member Blind Wedjat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by taozen View Post
    That was in the 3rd act and conclusion of the film. I was talking about in the 1st act. T'Challa never says was HE wants in the first few acts. He never say what he believes the path Wakanda should take in the first two act. His advisors and supporters tell them what they want but T'Challa does not. He does not stay for example that "I believe that Wakanda should remain hidden because we must keep her protected." Then the story pushes him to go the other direction. T'Challa basically represents Wakanda as its cypher and you get Nakia and W'kabi opposing point of views. When W'Kabi tells him that he does not want to bring refugees in, which is what Nakia wants, and that he will support T'Challa if he wants implement change through force outside of Wakanda. T'Challa says that has not been Wakanda's or our way. Can't remember which. In the beginning he just wants Klaw. Now when he is thrown from the waterfall and returns, the beginning of the 3rd act, then he has purpose and a real goal. To become King again. My basic point is that Killmonger is the protagonist in the film. He is the advocate or champion of a particular cause or idea which is to take control of Wakanda. To send weapons to all oppressed Black people around the world and start a revolution. He studied, fought, lied and killed for that moment to be King. T'Challa is the main hero but Eric is the protagonist. T'Challa's follow up to Eric's idea is to establish Wakandan science and social out reach centers. Yep that was as moving as Killmonger's idea/plan? Right?
    Anyone with a decent background in economic policy would recognise that giving minorities access to things they do not have is what betters a community. I'm sorry if it doesn't sound very exciting, but time and time again it has been proving to work and be what a society needs. Educated kids do not feel the need to steal. Educated kids do not feel the need to kill. Educated kids do not feel the need to join gangs. Educated kids do not feel the need to turn to drugs. And most importantly, educated kids do not feel the need to bury their pain which leads to trauma and rage.

    We've become so enticed with this idea of violent or forceful retribution (which mind you, is what white nationalists and the Alt-Right want black people to feel or do so they can use it as proof that we are violent and subhuman in nature, cannot be reasoned and a race war is simply inevitable), that we don't see what the possible endgame even is. What prosperity would Killmonger's plan have led to? It would have caused another World War, and this is a world with superheroes in it. At best, he will win and would have drained Wakanda of all of its resources. At worst, he would have lost and Wakanda would have effectively been "colonised" the same way Libya was by the US. Just because something sounds moving doesn't mean it's the right one.

  11. #2936
    Incredible Member KingNomarch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    Seriously CW BP is honestly over hyped because when you break it down, he looked cool sure because he is this mysterious quiet character, who is just in Terminator mode, but but that's it. He didn't actually get any solid wins, and frakking Hawkeye gets the upper hand on him? Compare this to his solo where he is rag dolling people left and right?

    Also when you only have a small window of time, yeah you can do alot and make a character steal the spotlight, why,? Because they aren't the driving force behind the movie. They aren't the focus. That's why Shuri stick's out, and Mbaku and Okoye. They aren't the focus. You can't make a quiet, Terminator mode T'Challa for 2 hours because then he lacks development. There has to be range. And Honestly I'm surprised how much people ignore that

  12. #2937
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blind Wedjat View Post
    I don't see how this is abstract at all. T'Challa idolised his father and wanted to continue his legacy. He thinks the way to do that is by being a "great king", and his idea of what a great king is comes from what T'Chaka was and did. That is, keeping and maintaining Wakanda's traditions and isolationism. You might think that makes him a cypher but he's a king. His actions and desires are meant to be somewhat selfless.

    Killmonger on the other hand, is extremely selfish. Everything he wanted to do was his way of dealing with his own anger and trauma, even if he disguised that as being for a greater good. It's what makes him an effective villain, but it's also what makes him the villain and not the hero.

    Personally I see the writing of this film existing on a slightly higher level than what we had been given for the last ten years in superhero film. Yes, it's not the first superhero film to have a villain that poses as a stark contrast to the hero, but it's probably the first one in the MCU that goes beyond a conceptual level with this and goes beyond the surface. T'Challa is everything Killmonger isn't, and that's the point.

    Also, T'Challa's advisors tell him what to do half of the time. That's why he has them. That's why any leader has them. How many superheroes do you know that have advisors? You can't expect them to act or be explored the same way.
    Quote Originally Posted by Blind Wedjat View Post
    Anyone with a decent background in economic policy would recognise that giving minorities access to things they do not have is what betters a community. I'm sorry if it doesn't sound very exciting, but time and time again it has been proving to work and be what a society needs. Educated kids do not feel the need to steal. Educated kids do not feel the need to kill. Educated kids do not feel the need to join gangs. Educated kids do not feel the need to turn to drugs. And most importantly, educated kids do not feel the need to bury their pain which leads to trauma and rage.

    We've become so enticed with this idea of violent or forceful retribution (which mind you, is what white nationalists and the Alt-Right want black people to feel or do so they can use it as proof that we are violent and subhuman in nature, cannot be reasoned and a race war is simply inevitable), that we don't see what the possible endgame even is. What prosperity would Killmonger's plan have led to? It would have caused another World War, and this is a world with superheroes in it. At best, he will win and would have drained Wakanda of all of its resources. At worst, he would have lost and Wakanda would have effectively been "colonised" the same way Libya was by the US. Just because something sounds moving doesn't mean it's the right one.
    You speak the truth, especially when it comes to people enticed by or enamored with the idea of violent and forceful retribution against their enemies and/or oppressors, though I would add that with the white nationalists/supremacists, it's also tied into this revanchist idea of "reclaiming" what they feel is "rightfully theirs" and punishing those who would oppose that.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  13. #2938
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    T’Challa’s desire to be like his dad is shown pretty clearly when his first act as king is to try and do what his dad failed to do by capturing Klaw. T’Challa wants to maintain the status quo both personally and in Wakanda at large and it’s shown through small things like the scene with Shuri upgrading his suit.

    It’s outright confirmed in the third act but all the elements were there from the beginning of the film. It’s not as direct as Peter saying “all I want to do is chill and hangout with MJ” but T’Challa’s goals and the arc he would need to take were as clear as Killmonger’s.

  14. #2939
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    Seriously CW BP is honestly over hyped because when you break it down, he looked cool sure because he is this mysterious quiet character, who is just in Terminator mode, but but that's it. He didn't actually get any solid wins, and frakking Hawkeye gets the upper hand on him? Compare this to his solo where he is rag dolling people left and right?
    Err, what? T'Challa put Hawkeye down, don't know what you're talking about.

    None of the thugs T'Challa beat down in his solo movie were half the bad asses Clint was/is

  15. #2940
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    I have a great idea...


    The next writer should kill off all of the Wakandan supporting cast so that absolutely nobody is a threat to the mantle of Black Panther or King of Wakanda and steals valuable panel space from his royal majesty!


    Also...


    Isolate him from all other members of the greater Marvel Universe so that absolutely no one out shines him on panel or on screen and upsets Black Panther fans or other loyal fan bases hoping that their favorite character comes out on top!


    Just have King T'challa as himself fight Black Panther as himself for 1000 issues straight and everybody is happy win win!


    You're welcome...





    Carry on...
    Get Hectic!

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