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  1. #2986
    Incredible Member KingNomarch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by taozen View Post
    I totally did not miss that scene. And guess what? That is a clear character arc. Did T'Challa have a clear arc in BP? Is his arc just breaking with Wakanda tradition and not remain hidden? I do not think he stated that he was against Wakanda's coming out of hiding. He just says it has not been the Wakandan way. That is why I said in a earlier post that he is a cypher for Wakanda. A more defined arc would have been him being totally against Wakanda and remaining with tradition and then changing his mind. Usually movies have a plot arch and the protagonist has a character arc. That defining arc does not happen with T'Challa?
    I'm starting to question if you saw the movie. His arc can be summarized as him stepping out of his father's shadow and becomes his own man/king to do what's best for Wakanda. Or better yet, T'Chaka's quote: "You're a good man, with a good heart, and it's hard for a good man to be king." Which perfectly summarizes T'Challa.

    The first time T'Challa rejects breaking from tradition is when he's speaking with Nakia and he asks her opinion on what she thinks they should do to help the outside world. However, since the first time Wakanda reached out 11 Wakandans died and his father killed, then there's the possibility that their way of life could be ruined. So he refuses.

    But that wasn't it for him because he's conflicted. Earlier he realized the good they could do when they saved the women from the traffickers. So he goes to someone else he trust, W'Kabi. He rejects W'Kabi's proposal because it isn't their way to wage war.

    A huge moment comes when he decides to bring Ross to Wakanda for help. Okoye, his father, and likely ever other traditionalist would've left Ross to die. Okoye tries to remind him that he's king but he interrupts her and let her know that he's aware of his job but he can't let a good man like Ross die when they can save him especially after Ross risked his life to save Nakia.

    The next huge moment which is IMO the most important part of his arc and best part of the movie is when he learned the truth from Zuri. He is left visibly shaken to his core. He modeled himself after his father and planned to rule just like he did only to find out that his father wasn't the man he thought he was. It was because of this moment Killmonger was able to win during the challenge.

    His arc came full circle when he confronted his father and ancestors, the people he looked up to, and told them they were all wrong. That the tradition that they followed and shackled them were wrong and that he will not rest until he undoes Wakanda's past sins by starting with the monster they created, Killmonger because it's their fault he turned out like that. T'Challa realized the type of king he wanted to be and it wasn't the one that T'Chaka was anymore.

    He had a clear arc in CW but it lacked depth until his scene with Zemo. If it did we would've had a moment where he questioned what he was doing.

  2. #2987
    Extraordinary Member Ezyo1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ekie View Post
    Pepper never creates an armor. She just gets powers and beats up the bad guy for Tony.(everyone hated it).

    I know you can fix it. Will Marvel? Because all the interviews i hear talk about her being the most intelligent person in the MCU with zero side mention of Tchalla being in the conversation.

    And when Reed Richards shows up then what? Will she be second? Or will they give Reeds intellence to Sue to make her stand out?

    Somehow i doubt they will need Reed to preserve Shuris new place...Reed not being a scary too perfect black guy and all.
    I dobt see why it can't be added in there
    I mean it's clear that Shuri needed a role, and unlike the comics, in the movies they actually show that the heroes don't exactly have infinite time o. Their hands (hence how Tony had pepper running his company or in Batman Bruce has Lucius fox in charge) but T'Challa IS actually ruling. So I don't expect to see in the movies him tinkering in a lab, that's where my idea comes in seamlessly, hell it's so easy that it can be taken a step further. He gives her the schematics of his updates to the habit and the changes he wants cracks the joke about how he has to teach her that things can always be improved. Then when she applies the updates she adds her own additional changes and comments about it. It's a very easy way to showcase his technical genius side without putting him in a lab

  3. #2988
    Extraordinary Member Ezyo1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingNomarch View Post
    I'm starting to question if you saw the movie. His arc can be summarized as him stepping out of his father's shadow and becomes his own man/king to do what's best for Wakanda. Or better yet, T'Chaka's quote: "You're a good man, with a good heart, and it's hard for a good man to be king." Which perfectly summarizes T'Challa.

    The first time T'Challa rejects breaking from tradition is when he's speaking with Nakia and he asks her opinion on what she thinks they should do to help the outside world. However, since the first time Wakanda reached out 11 Wakandans died and his father killed, then there's the possibility that their way of life could be ruined. So he refuses.

    But that wasn't it for him because he's conflicted. Earlier he realized the good they could do when they saved the women from the traffickers. So he goes to someone else he trust, W'Kabi. He rejects W'Kabi's proposal because it isn't their way to wage war.

    A huge moment comes when he decides to bring Ross to Wakanda for help. Okoye, his father, and likely ever other traditionalist would've left Ross to die. Okoye tries to remind him that he's king but he interrupts her and let her know that he's aware of his job but he can't let a good man like Ross die when they can save him especially after Ross risked his life to save Nakia.

    The next huge moment which is IMO the most important part of his arc and best part of the movie is when he learned the truth from Zuri. He is left visibly shaken to his core. He modeled himself after his father and planned to rule just like he did only to find out that his father wasn't the man he thought he was. It was because of this moment Killmonger was able to win during the challenge.

    His arc came full circle when he confronted his father and ancestors, the people he looked up to, and told them they were all wrong. That the tradition that they followed and shackled them were wrong and that he will not rest until he undoes Wakanda's past sins by starting with the monster they created, Killmonger because it's their fault he turned out like that. T'Challa realized the type of king he wanted to be and it wasn't the one that T'Chaka was anymore.

    He had a clear arc in CW but it lacked depth until his scene with Zemo. If it did we would've had a moment where he questioned what he was doing.
    Brotha...



    Perfect explanation, another I would add in there since people like to compare to Terminator mode T'Challa from CW, we got that In BP as well. When he was chasing Klaw, dude damn near eviscerated klaw in front of a crowd full of people in a foreign country. But realized the risk of giving into his anger (again) and ignoring the advice of the people he trusts.

    Solo BP was so much more nuanced and it makes me sad that people overlook all this stuff because he didn't have a more joke slinging personality.

  4. #2989
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong, (as I haven't bothered to watched it) but doesn't something like this happen on IM 3? I have heard something like pepper essentially kinda chumps Tony to some extent in the 3rd act?

    The thing with Shuri is that she needed a role. Nakia is the spy, Okoye is the warrior and Shuri is Q. Coogler had it known that T'Challa is a genius as he designed his habit. All that really needs to be done while keeping Shuris role is to simply have T'Challa make modifications to the habit (or give the schematics to Shuri to have her implement them due to not having time to spend in a lab) while playing on the joke from the first movie about improving things that work. Simple. Established T'Challas a super genius but has to run a country, Shuri is still in her role without anyone getting sidelined, continues the running joke and sibling banter. See how quickly I solved that issue?




    Also Cap doesn't beat Bucky either dude is pounding his face in at the end of their fight. Really the only T'Challa has straight up win his fight by Killing the villain in a no bullisht way. Straight dagger to the gut.

    Any movie no matter how great can be picked apart. TWS is just as vulnerable to this as BP
    Just because one line saying he designed his first habit does necessarily make him a genius. For example, Night Thrasher designs all of his gear and is gifted but he is not acknowledged as a genius. I hope we do see T'Challa as a genius but suspect that it will not happen as Shuri is his Q. Coogler seems to see T'Challa as a King who is a super soldier. But I hope it does happen.

  5. #2990
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ekie View Post
    Pepper never creates an armor. She just gets powers and beats up the bad guy for Tony.(everyone hated it).

    I know you can fix it. Will Marvel? Because all the interviews i hear talk about her being the most intelligent person in the MCU with zero side mention of Tchalla being in the conversation.

    And when Reed Richards shows up then what? Will she be second? Or will they give Reeds intellence to Sue to make her stand out?

    Somehow i doubt they will need Reed to preserve Shuris new place...Reed not being a scary too perfect black guy and all.
    That is my point exactly. T'Challa is not shown anywere to be a genius. That is a large part of the character and you Reed Richards example is point on. I guarantee you Reed will be shown to be a genius.

  6. #2991
    Astonishing Member Cville's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by taozen View Post
    Just because one line saying he designed his first habit does necessarily make him a genius. For example, Night Thrasher designs all of his gear and is gifted but he is not acknowledged as a genius. I hope we do see T'Challa as a genius but suspect that it will not happen as Shuri is his Q. Coogler seems to see T'Challa as a King who is a super soldier. But I hope it does happen.
    Hes' definitely gifted. When you look up what the suit does, just anybody isn't going to be able to design that. He's also a decent hacker. I'd say hes at technical genius without the official credentials. Im talking Night Thrasher.

  7. #2992
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by taozen View Post
    Just because one line saying he designed his first habit does necessarily make him a genius. For example, Night Thrasher designs all of his gear and is gifted but he is not acknowledged as a genius. I hope we do see T'Challa as a genius but suspect that it will not happen as Shuri is his Q. Coogler seems to see T'Challa as a King who is a super soldier. But I hope it does happen.
    I think he's a genius... just not Tony Stark/Reed Richards genius. The average dude can't create the gear Night Thrasher has.

    I think it's fair to argue he's a somewhat low end Batman analogue. He's brilliant in a lot of areas from designing the suit to leading a team... he's not not a top tier guy.

  8. #2993
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cville View Post
    Hes' definitely gifted. When you look up what the suit does, just anybody isn't going to be able to design that. He's also a decent hacker. I'd say hes at technical genius without the official credentials. Im talking Night Thrasher.
    And Night Thrasher is indeed very underrated in a lot of circles, much like Black Panther himself for a good amount of time until Christopher Priest started writing him. That said, this has been an enlightening discussion so far.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  9. #2994
    Extraordinary Member Ezyo1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by taozen View Post
    Just because one line saying he designed his first habit does necessarily make him a genius. For example, Night Thrasher designs all of his gear and is gifted but he is not acknowledged as a genius. I hope we do see T'Challa as a genius but suspect that it will not happen as Shuri is his Q. Coogler seems to see T'Challa as a King who is a super soldier. But I hope it does happen.
    See my other posts describing how to establish his super genius while keeping Shuris role

  10. #2995
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cville View Post
    Hes' definitely gifted. When you look up what the suit does, just anybody isn't going to be able to design that. He's also a decent hacker. I'd say hes at technical genius without the official credentials. Im talking Night Thrasher.
    I think Thrash's skill, when introduced and when used properly, is applying guerilla tactics to his war on crime. He looks for the chink in he armor, and goes low tech when he needs to get what he wants.

    He took Shield files at a time when they were disbanded, allowing him access to the FF's files, which he couldn't hack. He bribed his way into the Hellfire Club servers and simply paid a man to watch Avengers Mansion. Later, when Firestar joined his team, he learned how best she could use her powers.

    Its a shame T'Challa's super genius didn't get into his movie, but I'm not surprised. As a character, we've long since turned away from the 'Doc Savage' template, guy who's super in body and mind.

    Batman and T'Challa are the only real remaining, thriving versions of that template. The rest, including Doc Savage himself, have died away. The only modern versions are deconstructions. Tom Strong, a loving one, and Jonas Venture, the exact opposite.

    Thrash's creativity is the kind MCU T'Challa movie should and has displayed. He was canny enough to follow Stark, humble enough to take Widow up on her offer, etc.

  11. #2996
    Astonishing Member Cville's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    I think Thrash's skill, when introduced and when used properly, is applying guerilla tactics to his war on crime. He looks for the chink in he armor, and goes low tech when he needs to get what he wants.

    He took Shield files at a time when they were disbanded, allowing him access to the FF's files, which he couldn't hack. He bribed his way into the Hellfire Club servers and simply paid a man to watch Avengers Mansion. Later, when Firestar joined his team, he learned how best she could use her powers.

    Its a shame T'Challa's super genius didn't get into his movie, but I'm not surprised. As a character, we've long since turned away from the 'Doc Savage' template, guy who's super in body and mind.

    Batman and T'Challa are the only real remaining, thriving versions of that template. The rest, including Doc Savage himself, have died away. The only modern versions are deconstructions. Tom Strong, a loving one, and Jonas Venture, the exact opposite.

    Thrash's creativity is the kind MCU T'Challa movie should and has displayed. He was canny enough to follow Stark, humble enough to take Widow up on her offer, etc.
    His bio says he can do this.

    Weapons Designer: Taylor is a talented weapons and armor designer who often dabbles with any new ideas or known possibilities.

    Computer Literacy: He also possesses a high proficiency in computer tapping, software coding, security set-up, and hacking.


    Im putting that at near genius level.

  12. #2997
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cville View Post
    His bio says he can do this.

    Weapons Designer: Taylor is a talented weapons and armor designer who often dabbles with any new ideas or known possibilities.

    Computer Literacy: He also possesses a high proficiency in computer tapping, software coding, security set-up, and hacking.


    Im putting that at near genius level.
    I've read the actual issues

    Dwayne is damn smart, yes. But in cunning and being pragmatic. He has no tech feat to his name, but bad ass he remains ;

  13. #2998
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    I think he's a genius... just not Tony Stark/Reed Richards genius. The average dude can't create the gear Night Thrasher has.
    Night Thrasher suit is far less impressive than T'Challa's.

    I think it's fair to argue he's a somewhat low end Batman analogue. He's brilliant in a lot of areas from designing the suit to leading a team... he's not not a top tier guy.
    Is this about the comics or movies? Both Batman and T'Challa are equals when it comes to sciences, T'Challa began as Reed's equal. In the movies I like when they don't make characters know everything, it's bad enough when Stark does it. MCU T'Challa is more of a genius scientist than Nolan's Batman. Black Panther can lead, he's leading the Avengers right now. He just doesn't get the top spot on teams as much as he should.

  14. #2999
    Extraordinary Member Ezyo1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    I think Thrash's skill, when introduced and when used properly, is applying guerilla tactics to his war on crime. He looks for the chink in he armor, and goes low tech when he needs to get what he wants.

    He took Shield files at a time when they were disbanded, allowing him access to the FF's files, which he couldn't hack. He bribed his way into the Hellfire Club servers and simply paid a man to watch Avengers Mansion. Later, when Firestar joined his team, he learned how best she could use her powers.

    Its a shame T'Challa's super genius didn't get into his movie, but I'm not surprised. As a character, we've long since turned away from the 'Doc Savage' template, guy who's super in body and mind.

    Batman and T'Challa are the only real remaining, thriving versions of that template. The rest, including Doc Savage himself, have died away. The only modern versions are deconstructions. Tom Strong, a loving one, and Jonas Venture, the exact opposite.

    Thrash's creativity is the kind MCU T'Challa movie should and has displayed. He was canny enough to follow Stark, humble enough to take Widow up on her offer, etc.
    If we are being honest, I would much rather see T'Challas on the fly genius more then lab scientist stuff. Like in tye Avengers cartoon when he whipped up some insane tech against leader using what was essentially radio shack items. Or beating Ironman with windex etc etc. To me that's more impressive then having a scene where he is making something in a lab

  15. #3000
    Mighty Member Ekie's Avatar
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    Now we are in a discussion about whether or not the mind that created a device capable of sustaining the destruction of all of the multiverse......... Being mentally compared to night thrasher in the movie verse (the most influential verse) is a good thing.

    We clearly like this character for different reasons

    I hope Black Panther 2 does for Tchalla what Captain America 2 did for Steve Rogers.
    Last edited by Ekie; 04-23-2020 at 09:51 PM.

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