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  1. #3031
    Astonishing Member Dboi654's Avatar
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    Right Now I wouldn't be surprised if the change the release date of BP2 with the recent change with the release dates of some of the other movies and also due to the reason that 2022 is really jam-packed as it is.

  2. #3032
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dboi654 View Post
    Right Now I wouldn't be surprised if the change the release date of BP2 with the recent change with the release dates of some of the other movies and also due to the reason that 2022 is really jam-packed as it is.
    For MCU movies in particular, the order is likely important if they have some bigger story arc connecting the movies. So if any of them get changes in release dates, I would expect almost all of them to.

  3. #3033
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by taozen View Post
    I have to disagree with you on that one. He is a skilled hunter, tracker, strategist, politician, inventor, and scientist. He has a PhD in physics from Oxford University. He is proficient in physics and advanced technology. He is a scientist. If I remember correctly, he designed or redesigned the Avengers Quinjet. I can't remember for sure but didn't he design one of the Fantastic Cars? Didn't T'Challa redesign the Falcons wings? He is a scientist that is far to busy as king to be in a lab but he is a scientist. He also designed an armor when he fought Doom in Hudlin's run. He even bragged that he designed it when was about 13 year old.
    T'Challa designed the classic Quinjets in the comics. Stark re-designed then in Bendis New Avengers.

    Though obviously that's something the MCU T'Challa can't get credit for. Maybe they can sort of flip roles and T'Challa can re-design the quinjets in the MCU.

    But yeah, the moral of the story is that T'Challa is a bunch of things. Hes a scientist and a martial artist and a super hero and a king, etc etc. Possibly the best resume in marvel.

  4. #3034
    Get Hectic! FLEX HECTIC's Avatar
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    Looks like King T'chaka was well ahead of schedule on that outreach program before he was rudely interrupted...


    Get Hectic!

  5. #3035
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by taozen View Post
    The heart of the issue is that there are so few rolls for Black actors. In so many films and series, there is only one role that is often called the token. So that role, if it is only one, often comes to represent all Black people watching. I have noticed a lot in so many recent movies and films that one black role will be a gay character. I joke with my film going friends who are not Black about this topic and they will send me a message when they see it. This would not be an issue if Black people had true representation in media. Let say if approximately 14 percent of movie and tv roles were cast with Black people, then this would not be an issue. That would mean that 14% of all shows and movies would have a predominantly Black cast and we all know that does not happen.
    Honestly I'm not sure why we need to bring the issue of black gay roles into the conversation. It just seems to be needlessly pitting the lack of representation of blacks against the lack of representation of gays in media.

    I think it's just cleaner to say we probably need more of both, and leave it at that. If a particular role happens to be both, that's good all around.

  6. #3036
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    The solution to that problem is to have more roles for black people not to scapegoat gay black men for straight black men's representation or lack thereof in media. Complaining about the sudden increase of gay black men in media isn't addressing this issue. Quite the contrary, it deflects from it.



    T'Challa is clearly not the same person at the end of the film that he was at the beginning. Characters do not just change their views in a vacuum. They have experiences that make them question their views and seek council and advice from other characters. Human beings are social creatures. How we interact with people affects us and that is true of T'Challa. It may not be an arc you find interesting but it is an arc nonetheless.



    Batman is unable to retire with the woman he loves because the Joker kills her. Not Dent, the Joker. Dent is not the antagonist of the movie, he is at worst a romantic rival. By your logic, John Jameson in Spider-Man 2 was the antagonist because he wanted to marry MJ.



    No, that's a narrow-minded view of what a character arc is. It can also be about a character having their opinions and beliefs challenged and learning those beliefs are wrong.



    This does not make him a cypher. It simply means he is a product of the environment he grew up in. T'Challa's initial position to keep Wakanda isolated was not being made in a vacuum. It doesn't make him any less of a character for it.



    Some Wakandans would. Others would not. The movie showed the country is not a monolith and like any other country in the world people have different opinions.



    To say this is a misreading of not only the movie but a misunderstanding of the hero's journey is an understatement. Killmonger is not the hero because he has a sympathetic goal which he uses to mask his uncontrolled anger at the world for screwing him over (something he admits at the end). Calling Klaw Killmonger's Obi-Wan figure is utterly laughable when their relationship is nothing like Obi-Wan and Luke even before Killmonger kills him.

    If we take your logic at face value, then every villain becomes the protagonist of the story by virtue of being opposed by the hero.
    I used the example of the HERO's Journey but my argument is that Killmonger was secretly the protagonist in the film. You can be the protagonist and not be the HERO in a story. T'Challa is the film's Hero. Eric is the one that pushes the story forward. The film basically begins when his father is killed by T'chaka and dramatically ends with his death overlooking the sunrise. In fact I believe that that the narrator in the opening scene may in fact be N'Jobu talking to Eric. The voice sounds like Sterling K. Brown's more the actor playing T'Chaka but I am not 100% sure.

  7. #3037
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Honestly I'm not sure why we need to bring the issue of black gay roles into the conversation. It just seems to be needlessly pitting the lack of representation of blacks against the lack of representation of gays in media.

    I think it's just cleaner to say we probably need more of both, and leave it at that. If a particular role happens to be both, that's good all around.
    We do need both and my point was that due to that lack of Black representation overall, that can of worms issue get brought up.

  8. #3038
    Extraordinary Member Ezyo1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Honestly I'm not sure why we need to bring the issue of black gay roles into the conversation. It just seems to be needlessly pitting the lack of representation of blacks against the lack of representation of gays in media.

    I think it's just cleaner to say we probably need more of both, and leave it at that. If a particular role happens to be both, that's good all around.
    No.. that's the problem. They need to be their own separate thing. You don't limp Black representation with gay representation because they aren't the same. Of your only making Black characters gay/lesbian then that's not true representation.

    Its mentioned and its a problem because it portraying Black people in only specific roles

  9. #3039
    Incredible Member KingNomarch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by taozen View Post
    Did T'Challa outright refuse to change with tradition. I did not interpret that way. He was being advised by Nakia and W'Kabi. He just says that has not been the Wakandan way or something. He never outright says I am against that. Also that really is not a character arc. That is a plot arc. He eventually changes from tradition but

    For an example in an earlier post I asked what did T'Challa want. In the ancestor scene, he has he want to be a great king. So that is what he wants. Okay that is an abstract thing. He is told that "Its hard for a good man to be King." T'Challa is a good man in the beginning and in the end. He does not change. He does break from tradition but its the first he makes as a King. If he was, lets say, 100% against exposing Wakanda and eventually changes his mind, that is a significant arc. He goes to his advisors and with the information that found, informs the world about Wakanda. He breaks from his father's tradition. But does T'Challa have a character arc. No he doesn't.
    I'm not about to waste my time repeating myself or explaining how character arcs work.

    [QUOTE]Let give another example in the Dark Knight. Batman/Bruce Wayne is the protagonist. Who is the antagonist in the film? Most people say the Joker but the Joker is NOT the antagonist. The antagonist keeps the protagonist from getting what he or she wants. What does Bruce Wayne want in the beginning of the film? he want to quit being Batman and settle down with Rachel. Who keep that from happening? Harvey Dent. Harvey keep asking Batman to help me and thus keeps Bruce from quitting. Harvey Dent is the antagonist. That why the film does not end when the Joker is captured. The Joker is something else. The film ends when Dent is defeated/killed. In the traditional Hero's Journey, there are 3 figures. The Hero (Luke Skywalker), Antagonist (Darth Vader) and the guide (Ben Kenobi) In the Dark knight, the Joker is the Kenobi character. He tells Batman, you are not like them; you are like me. He wants to prove that they are the same. And how does the film end? When Batman becomes the villain in the eyes of the city. He takes the joker's place. So the Joker gets a bit what he wants. And Bruce Wayne is kept from getting what he wants: To retire with the woman he loves.

    Okay look at T'Challa, he want to be a great king. Okay. He is a good man. A character arc would be if were not a good man and eventually changes to become one. Or he made bad decisions and then changes to make good decisions. Or if he was adamant and slavish about keeping with tradition. He NEVER says that HE wants to keep Wakanda secret. He says that is not Wakanda's tradition. That is why I have said he is a cypher for Wakanda and that is why his character suffers a bit. Think about it. He want to be king and is crowned. But then that was taken when he is defeated but not killed and he fights to be king again. Is that really a character arc? No, it is not a character arc. He is a good man in the beginning and is a good man in the end. He want to be a great king? Is he? Can that be judged in such a small time frame?
    Again I'll be wasting my time by repeating myself from previous posts. Your answers are telling me that you either didn't pay attention to or even watch the movie because there are literal moments that refutes this. The Joker is the antagonist of TDK. He challenges Batman. Harvey was just a romantic rival. Dent doesn't challenge Batman/Bruce the way that Joker does. You're also missing the fact that Bruce wanted more than being with Rachel, he wanted to inspire the people so that Batman won't be needed.

    [QUOTE]Now one can argue that he did not do what's was best for Wakanda in the end. And that would be correct. The Black Panther is Wakanda's King and should put Wakanda first. One could argue that the only thing T'Chaka did wrong was not take Eric back to Wakanda. T'Challa'a decision helps the world but endangers Wakanda. If you are Wakandan, would you believe this is good for your country?[QUOTE]

    Finally something that won't require me to repeat myself or anyone else. Just like W'Kabi said: "The rest of the world is catching up. Soon it'll be the conquered or the conquerors." Hiding behind their borders wasn't going to help them much longer with people like Tony with his armors and other countries starting to replicate them. Then there's extremis tech, god-like beings such as Thor, Loki, and Thanos coming to earth and leaving destruction behind them. Before T'Challa, their isolation policy left them with zero allies. If the Avengers failed in 2012 Wakanda would've fell with the rest of the world and no one would've come to their aid. The same goes for Ultron. Based off how their military performed during IW, Wakanda would've been decimated by the BO and their army if not for the Avengers helping.

    The threats outside were growing and isolating themselves weren't helping. With their isolation policy being one of Erik's motivations, he would've led them to ruin and then there wouldn't be a Wakanda. Now that they're opening up their number of allies can grow significantly. With all the tech and resources they have, you think other countries aren't going to want to be allies? The more allies they have the better it is for Wakanda. So yes, if I was Wakandan I'd agree with T'Challa especially if it means having powerful people like the Avengers on our side.

    Now lets use the traditional Hero's Journey and apply it to Killmonger as the protagonist. What does he want? He wants to arm oppressed Black people around the world to overthrow their oppressors. How can he do this? By becoming King of Wakanda. Who is his antagonist? That's T'Challa. Who is his Ben Kenobi figure? Klaw. But he subverts that and kills Klaw to take over leadership of his mission instead of the guide figure dying a heroic death. Eric is stopped by his antagonist (T'Challa) but Eric has such an effect on him that he reveals to the world about the secret existence of Wakanda. That is why I stated that this movie is truly a Killmonger movie where he is the protagonist.
    Going on a journey doesn't make you the film's protagonist. By that logic every MCU villain are the protagonist.

    First Joker and now Klaw. For Klaw to fit the Obi-Wan archetype he'd have to be Killmonger's wise mentor that sacrifices himself and Killmonger would have to have had respect for him. He didn't and their relationship wasn't like that. It was business and he was nothing more than a pawn for Erik.

    Erik's role was intentionally designed in the way that he could be a hero but isn't, like Magneto but nobody are calling the X films Magneto movies. You also claim that Erik has an arc and T'Challa doesn't when it's the opposite. By time the movie ended T'Challa had changed and grew as a person. The same can't be said about Killmonger. For Erik to have an arc he would have to have gone through some change or learned some lesson. He didn't. He was still the same person that he was at the beginning. Even Okoye goes through a completed arc, making her the only character other than T'Challa to do so.

    I believe that this first movie had a great deal of world building with the world of Wakanda and significant presence of T'Challa's supporting cast. And sometimes if you have so much world building, your HERO development suffers.
    Except it didn't. He was a fleshed out character with a completed arc.
    Last edited by KingNomarch; 04-24-2020 at 05:34 PM.

  10. #3040
    Mighty Member dkrook's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    No.. that's the problem. They need to be their own separate thing. You don't limp Black representation with gay representation because they aren't the same. Of your only making Black characters gay/lesbian then that's not true representation.

    Its mentioned and its a problem because it portraying Black people in only specific roles
    This guy gets it!

  11. #3041
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    No.. that's the problem. They need to be their own separate thing. You don't limp Black representation with gay representation because they aren't the same. Of your only making Black characters gay/lesbian then that's not true representation.

    Its mentioned and its a problem because it portraying Black people in only specific roles
    And if they were ONLY made black characters gay I would agree. But the vast majority of black characters frankly aren't gay. If you were to name every gay black character and I were to name every straight one in fiction, my list would easily quadruple yours. The fact that there is slightly greater representation of gay characters doesn't somehow translate to any sort of set back for straight ones. There's room for both.
    Last edited by XPac; 04-24-2020 at 05:56 PM.

  12. #3042
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    Quote Originally Posted by taozen View Post
    I used the example of the HERO's Journey but my argument is that Killmonger was secretly the protagonist in the film. You can be the protagonist and not be the HERO in a story. T'Challa is the film's Hero. Eric is the one that pushes the story forward. The film basically begins when his father is killed by T'chaka and dramatically ends with his death overlooking the sunrise. In fact I believe that that the narrator in the opening scene may in fact be N'Jobu talking to Eric. The voice sounds like Sterling K. Brown's more the actor playing T'Chaka but I am not 100% sure.
    He is not the protagonist just because he gets better development than the average MCU villain. Again, if we take your logic at face value, every villain with a revenge story and sympathetically-framed death is the protagonist. Yes, Killmonger is a well-written character. No, he is not better developed than T'Challa and secretly the protagonist of the film.

  13. #3043
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    *pokes head into thread*
    *reads random complaining*

    *shakes head*
    *goes back to sleep*

  14. #3044
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    Oh, one more thing before I vanish again.

    This is The Hero's Journey, in it's simplest form:



    It doesn't say a damn thing about what the hero wants. It does talk a hell of a lot about death & rebirth, tho.

  15. #3045
    Ultimate Member MindofShadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dboi654 View Post
    Right Now I wouldn't be surprised if the change the release date of BP2 with the recent change with the release dates of some of the other movies and also due to the reason that 2022 is really jam-packed as it is.
    Seems like Marvel is trying like hell not to move it. They could have easily just pushed everything back instead of juggling like they are.

    Which to me, points to the fact they know it is there biggest money maker right now and they don't want to move it from its tentpole spot.

    But yeah, I'll be stunned if it doesn't eventually get moved. No one knows how or when stuff like that can get moving again or if people will even bother going to movies.

    If Widow opens in November as planned and straight up bombs because people are too scared to go see it... what then? What if China keeps opening and closing stuff like they are doing now? At least BP2 doesn't depend on china money much
    Black Panther Appreciation Blog: http://blackpanthermarvel.blogspot.com/

    T'challa's Greatest Comic Book Feats: http://blackpanthermarvel.blogspot.c...her-feats.html

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