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  1. #5236
    Extraordinary Member Ezyo1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    I think writers with long guaranteed runs, like Coates on BP or Hickman on Xmen, can take the time to world build to their hearts content.

    But if you're the typical writer on the typical book which will likely be cancelled in 6 issues, you want to get all your stuff in. And that may not allow a whole lot of world building even for writers that wanted to do it.
    Priest did plenty of world building and he thought he wouldn't make it past issue 12. Hudlin did a ton of world building in his 6 issues mini. It's all about how much the writer cares to dove into abd how relevant to the story it is.

  2. #5237
    The Professional Marvell2100's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DigiCom View Post
    The thing you have to remember about Hickman is that he LOVES coming up with cool names for things, but tends to skimp on actually explaining them. He's a very plot-centric writer, and tends to treat characters like cogs in the Great Machine™, complete with fancy charts explaining how they fit together.
    We're seeing that with his X of Swords event with the X-books. Lots of cool names and concepts, similar to his Avengers run.

    Maybe it he will do better with the story in this event.

  3. #5238
    The Professional Marvell2100's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    I think the bigger problem is the discrepancy due to plot. When T'Challa faced rider, he should of wrecked him. However, this was all a Homage to when Cap abd Batman fought but in reverse, really it should of ended with T'Challa beating him by knock out or seriously injuring him.

    But then he dies stuff like going against terrax, knocking the isht out of swan and she isn't weak, and going in a straight up fight against Namor then beating back dwarf and makes you question where he is at, especially when the writer says something about it as well.

    I would just say he is bast champion, the kotd gives him the knowledge a d skills of precious Panthers and have it manifest sometimes, fro. Different martial arts to experience with mystical power etc
    As far as BPs' abilities go, it's all over the place. Inconsistencies up and down the spectrum.

  4. #5239
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blind Wedjat View Post
    Still thinking the status quo is the only way to do things and tell stories is exactly why Marvel (and DC) comics are largely so stale these days.

    How many times do you really need to see T'Challa in a fight with some old or new villain every three issues? How many times do we need to see Wakanda fighting a war within itself or from outside forces? How many times do we need a comic attempting to explore T'Challa's character?

    How much about Wakanda do you know? How many cities in Wakanda can you mention? What's their geography really like? What structure does Wakandan religion have? What religious practices do they have? What does their religion say about creation or Vibranium? Do they have any national holidays? What's Wakandan cuisine and music like? What about sports? How do they handle funerals? What's the education system like?

    Wakanda should absolutely be treated like a DnD location. Hell, that video on the film and executive power a few pages back praises the film for doing just that, considering the YouTuber is a video game writer. Even with the little that film does, there's a reason why it gets praise for worldbuilding far more than the Thor films do. Little things like elaborating on ceremonies and even just showing the streets of Wakanda matter.

    There's no reason why we shouldn't learn about past BPs either or more about the Wakandan gods. These guys were legendary heroes and kings and champions of gods. Mythology is one of the most interesting things in the world. Superhero stories are born from mythology. Why shouldn't we know more about them? Why shouldn't we know more about the legendary quests and adventures of past BPs? Why don't we get any good exploration about their characters? If some of you want KOTD to mean anything, this is how to get it to work. Iron Fist did it with the Immortal Iron Fist run. Why can't we get stories like that?

    We were talking about a hypothetical video game a few weeks/months ago and this lack of diverse stories and worldbuilding in the comics is exactly why I said a Black Panther game is harder to conceptualise than a lot of us want to admit. Forget game mechanics because all of those exist to make the game. Part of what makes the Arkham series so great is the breadth of stories to pull from. There's no reason why Batman gets to have a fully fleshed out, living and breathing Gotham full of history and all we get of Wakanda is the palace, Jabari lands and the yearly "Wakanda in turmoil" story arc.

    I'm personally tired of being served the same shit.
    I'm not saying keep the status quo. In the post you're responding to and posts I've made in the past I've been a huge advocate of exploring Wakandan history and culture with respect to the plot. But I maintain that should be secondary to the themes of T'Challa himself, the complexity of his villains, and the depth of his supporting cast. Lore is great but characters should always come first. The easiest example to point to is Coates. His run has put a heavy emphasis on Wakandan pre-history and cultural practices, but because of how atrocious his T'Challa is most hard core fans have been turned off and sales are garbage.

    I 100% agree it's not either-or, but I'm much more concerned about a writer capturing T'Challa's voice than I am learning about Wakanda's education system. One of them is supplemental to the plot and atmosphere of the mythos, the other is essential. Even in the excellent video you're referencing, a major point of the speaker is how Coogler's worldbuilding informs our understanding of T'Challa and Killmonger, with his supporting cast being key players. Lore is supplemental to the journey and actions of characters, very important but not the end all be all. This varies from medium to medium but in comics that's especially the case. Though stuff like the properties of vibranium and the nature of the gods should be fixtures of the mythos.

    Wakanda doesn't need to be a DnD location. It's a tool to prop T'Challa up. It should be explored insofar as it furthers T'Challa, his supporting characters, and his rogues. Want to learn about a previous BP? Great, find a way within the confines of the story to have him make an appearance and provide relevant backstory to the current arc. Want to learn about national holidays? Cool, show how T'Challa exploits them to further his political goals domestically, as Priest did with the Dora. We're never getting a slice of life "World of Wakanda' book, so writers are forced to utilize worldbuilding in ways that illuminate our understanding of the BP mythology while also furthering the plot/characterization.

    In a video game context (and I've said this before), the rules change because of the nature of the medium. Plenty of the stuff in the Arkham series was created specifically for the game or extrapolated from lightly explored locations in the comics and I'd want something similar for Wakanda. Plenty is already there to work with, it takes a team willing to take the extra step to add deeper lore, names, etc. The comics can't provide everything and at a certain point developers need to do some worldbuilding themselves. They did it for Arkham's Gotham, they did for Elder Scrolls, and when Disney gets serious they can do it for Black Panther.
    Last edited by chief12d; 08-02-2020 at 11:55 AM.

  5. #5240
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    Priest did plenty of world building and he thought he wouldn't make it past issue 12. Hudlin did a ton of world building in his 6 issues mini. It's all about how much the writer cares to dove into abd how relevant to the story it is.
    I don't disagree. I think McGregor, Priest, Hudlin, Marberry, Liss, Hickmsm, and Coates actually have all done a fair amount of world building. At least as far as the present goes. The previous BP and their mythology is arguably a bit underdeveloped, but Wakanda in the here and now gets a fair amount of world building across the board.

    I'm not sure any fictional place is better established than Wakanda. Maybe Asgard. BP fans in that regard are more fortunate than most.
    Last edited by XPac; 08-02-2020 at 11:54 AM.

  6. #5241
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    Quote Originally Posted by DigiCom View Post
    Then why do they do such a ishtty job of it?

    See above.
    EDITORS.

    Ask Priest about that.

    Also some want to keep it vague for future stories (that never happen) see Star Trek-we still don't know how big the Federation really is or the final fates of Enterprise A-C.

  7. #5242
    Extraordinary Member Mike_Murdock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DigiCom View Post
    Possibly, or possibly a fusion of his metahuman senses and his latent ESP (that only shows up every once in a while). In any case, it was ALSO a cool visual that didn't amount to much.
    Yeah, I only remember it from very early on in Coates' run (and it's somewhat redundant with his super senses anyway), but the KOTD stuff was always my take on what it was.
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  8. #5243
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    Stop saying Tchalla is peak human that is annoying Tchalla is between enhanced or low end superhuman

  9. #5244
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    A good writer would pick up the baton Hickman had in kotd and explore both T'Challa and Wakanda. Exploring the history of Wakanda through his ancestors looking for clues to a current predicament.

    Example. For whatever reason the side wakandans butter their bread on is disrupting the bread and butter continuum. T'Challa meditates and connects with whomever the BP was at the time and they explore why be it was established that the bread be buttered so. T'Challa comes back to the present with what he believes is the solution only to find that he has to commune with another BP to explain the special secret vibranium yeast salt ratio that was administered because of some other important historical wakandan event. He comes back again to the present, kicks the bad guys ass and ushers in a new age of bread resistant to mold that can be buttered on either side.....but about those vibranium mutated cows he now has another problem on his hands and has to, yet again explore wakandan history through one of his anscesters to keep the present narrative going while still exploring wakandan history and world building at the same time .

    Insert any set of problems for bread, butter, yeast, and butter spreading for something less silly
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  10. #5245
    Astonishing Member Cville's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    EDITORS.

    Ask Priest about that.

    Also some want to keep it vague for future stories (that never happen) see Star Trek-we still don't know how big the Federation really is or the final fates of Enterprise A-C.
    The Federation has a diamater of 10,000 light years.
    The A was mothballed after "Undiscovered Country". The C was destroyed in a battle with the Romulans that lead to peace between the Klingons and the federation.

  11. #5246
    Ultimate Member MindofShadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dariel81 View Post
    Stop saying Tchalla is peak human that is annoying Tchalla is between enhanced or low end superhuman
    thats... that is the same thing lol. Not regular human but not spider-man. Comic book peak human.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike_Murdock View Post
    Yeah, I only remember it from very early on in Coates' run (and it's somewhat redundant with his super senses anyway), but the KOTD stuff was always my take on what it was.
    Most likely yes. I guess. It just looks like regular senses though with a cool name. It is kinda like the magic spear thing... never really outright stated but makes sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by MoneySpider View Post
    Yet Black Panther took a direct fiery blast to his entire body from a Phoenix-powered Namor... but you don't think Namor was going all out in that scene when he hit Black Panther with that?
    Avengers vs X-men #8 aka Namor attacks was published July 17 2012

    Fantastic Four 608 aka T'challa is king of the dead was published August 2012


    Namor didn't murder tchalal with the phoenix blast because the writers didn't want him too lol. The p5 didn't kill ANY avengers.

    Namor didn't kill T'challa or any other avengers due to plot induced stupidity. It has diddly to do with KOTD
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  12. #5247
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    Hawkeye types is what I consider peak human.

  13. #5248
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cville View Post
    The Federation has a diamater of 10,000 light years.
    The A was mothballed after "Undiscovered Country". The C was destroyed in a battle with the Romulans that lead to peace between the Klingons and the federation.
    Officially writers were told to keep it vague on the number of planets in the Federation. That what I meant. The distance is known but the number of planets is not.

    There is an Enterprise in the Starfleet museum confirmed by Next Generation in Relics. However we don't know if that is A or Archer's Enterprise now. And in the wreckage of Wolf 359 from Best of Both Worlds there is a Constitution class wreckage.

  14. #5249
    Astonishing Member Blind Wedjat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MouserGrey View Post
    A good writer would pick up the baton Hickman had in kotd and explore both T'Challa and Wakanda. Exploring the history of Wakanda through his ancestors looking for clues to a current predicament.

    Example. For whatever reason the side wakandans butter their bread on is disrupting the bread and butter continuum. T'Challa meditates and connects with whomever the BP was at the time and they explore why be it was established that the bread be buttered so. T'Challa comes back to the present with what he believes is the solution only to find that he has to commune with another BP to explain the special secret vibranium yeast salt ratio that was administered because of some other important historical wakandan event. He comes back again to the present, kicks the bad guys ass and ushers in a new age of bread resistant to mold that can be buttered on either side.....but about those vibranium mutated cows he now has another problem on his hands and has to, yet again explore wakandan history through one of his anscesters to keep the present narrative going while still exploring wakandan history and world building at the same time .

    Insert any set of problems for bread, butter, yeast, and butter spreading for something less silly
    This is hilarious, but also exactly what I'm advocating for. If we want what Hickman did to matter we actually have to do some worldbuilding.

    Now I can't stop thinking about vibranium mutated cows...

  15. #5250
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dariel81 View Post
    Hawkeye types is what I consider peak human.
    Peak human traditionally is Cap. He's the peak of human perfection ... though later writers sometimes called him super human.

    Hawkeye is just a human. A very athletic human, but not the peak of human perfection.

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