Black Panther Appreciation 2020

[butterflykyss]

So let me see if I understand this correctly. Based solely on what another poster, X-Pac, has said and without you ever reading the stories yourself, you have come to the conclusion that the actions taken in these stories are by far worse than treehouse rape camps, Wakanda being reduced to a a third world country and T'Challa cavorting with dictators and Wakandans killing each other in a civil war.

Ok, nice to know.

And if you were a regular participant in this thread in the past, you would know that every writer who has ever written a BP comic has received criticism, even some of the most revered writers in BP history. And that same poster that you're fond of quoting has been known to contradict himself on occasion.

I have been in the Storm thread and I've seen the same criticisms leveled at writers who didn't portray Storm in the way many of her fans prefer that you seem to have issue with in this thread.

Perhaps it's best if the hypocrisy is left at the door when entering this thread.

I've read Xpac posts on this forum for years now and I know he is a very knowledgable BP fan. So his description as described most certainly is worse and I can think of others. That said, how has Wakanda been reduced to a 3rd world country under coates? The idea of rape is not something specific to wakanka or even 3rd world countries for that matter. Its unfortunately experienced across the globe so coates showing the dark places men generally can go at times I found to be good storytelling. It would be no different of people writing on sex trafficking that occurs in countries like the US and Europe. The thing is for all of the criticism some give coates, he didnt reduce wakanda to rubble. He wasnt the one who wrote wakanda being conquered by external hostiles for the first time ever. Wakanda was destroyed under Hickman and reduced to nothing when the universes collided, mayberry wrote its border infiltrated by doom and the "civil war" of the desturi government, so people fighting within the country and tchalla working with a dictator who he didnt know for sure was one I dont think comes close to what we saw there.

What does the occasional instances of talking about other writers have to do with this discussion in relation to coates? ok so you've criticized other writers. this topic was about writers who have written far more damaging things about wakanda and its mythos than coates has been perceived to have done. xpac drawing attention to moments that he believe to be far worse by the hands of other writers, which I happen to agree with, is fair game. Moreover, whatever contradictory posts he may have made doesnt discount the point he made in regards to more egregious acts occurring under previous writers.

lol.. what does storm and what goes on in her thread have to do with a poster making a valid argument about other bp writers? I've never said Coates couldnt be criticized but, as I mentioned, wakanda being reduced to ash as captured by Hickman is far worse than anything coates has done. what mayberry wrote in doomwar is far worse than anything coates has done to wakanda. yet all i see when i come to this thread are comments about coates so please miss me with the unnecessary shade of being a regular participant. just because you don't see me post doesnt mean I'm not privy to the discussions had here and the predominant discussions I've seen are about how bad coates is for the BP mythos (I think wakanda being reduced to nothing and vibranium being made inert by way of doom outsmarting tchalla to be far worse but misery loves company. you guys have at it). in fact I was taken to task in previous versions of this thread about bringing up storm yet when I lurk here discussion seem to go back to her somehow. I think that is actually more hypocritical than anything you've seen me do in this thread, wouldnt you agree? so perhaps try looking at one's self before commenting on the words of another when entering this thread. pot and kettle my friend, remember that.

at any rate, dont conclude I'm being hypocritical because I dont align to a lot of the hate coates receive here. xpac makes a great point about other things that could be considered "worse" than what coates has done including the works of Hickman and mayberry. people should be able to agree and disagree in the regard without being charged as hypocrites.

#wakandaforever

Considering the fact that as you've admitted, your knowledge of BP lore in its entirety, is sporadic to non-existant, you're the last person who should be passing meaningful commentary on said lore in this thread.

Coates is literally the worst writer bar none of I have ever written anything BP related and the day he's finally gone from the mythos alongside all of his worthless retcons, will be a very good day.

Coates much like any other writer who's taken liberties with the BP mythos over the years, gets called out in the regular in here because he's that bad of a writer.

With the exception of one or at the most, two people posting in this thread, 97% of the readers posting herein, recognise Coates for the wilfully destructive individual that he's been as regards his complete and utter derailment of the BP solo for close to four years now.

But for readers like yourself, he gets high praise for using T'Challa's SOLO book as a platform to elevate Storm, a character that has been rendered irrelevant and without overarching agency over in the X-Verse for so many years post AvX.

An X-Verse which for all intents and purposes has now become quite supremacist to levels rarely before seen outside of Hydra.

To be quite honest, in the aftermath of what's been going on in the X-books as well as X-Men/FF #1, Storm's mutant supremacist self really has no business taking up space within the BP solo or further involvement with the BP mythos moving forward.

It's funny how you personally complain about Storm being written out of character in X-books and then come over here to dismiss the concerns of Black Panther enthusiasts who understand the characters importance and remain thoroughly informed as to his characterization and traits, dating back to his creation in 1966.

We get the BP mythos chapter and verse in here because practically all of us regardless of age, ethnicity, gender or orientation, are genuine appreciators of T'Challa's pedigree as well as the uniqueness of his origins.

We don't need or expect any writer to elevate T'Challa to faux godhood especially in someone else's book or another franchise.

All we require is for T'Challa to he written in character and for his actual supporting cast to equally be portrayed in their pre-Coates derailment agenda, glory.

It's really that simple.

Coates should try pushing that Rape Camp trope over in the X-Verse and see how far he gets with that before being shut down with the quickness, but according to you, he's written nothing on par with Jerome Dickey's unnecessary retcon of T'Challa and Ororo's teenage years.

Most of us aren't on that goalpost moving, mental gymnastics process of disinformation favoured by a distinct minority of posters in this thread.

I completely missed this. was the description xpac made in his post incorrect? if it wasn't then this entire post is invalid. but I will try to be succinct in my response.

I admitted the entirety of my knowledge is based on others posts? seriously stop it. we dont have to agree but let's not make egregious posts for the sake of it because you dont like what I said.

a lot of what you've said in regards to other writers I covered in my response to marvell. if you care to see my thoughts here please see above.

the other 3% who posts here have every right to express their thoughts on other writers being far worse than coates. what is the issue here? I'm not going to debate my thoughts on why I like coates, it's not going to change your mind either way even if I chose to.



to your point on mutant supremacy, if you're been reading xmen and still concluding storm is a mutant supremacist then you clearly haven't been reading all of the story being told. you talk about what's funny but what I find more hilarious is that im frank with my knowledge or lack thereof in relation to wakanda/bp yet you try to act as if you are the authority here as it relates to storm? seriously? lol ok have fun with that. again I won't argue with you as your conclusion shows where you're lacking as it relates to her and the complexities of the new status quo.


again how do my thoughts on storm have to do with anything we're talking about here? I've been reading BP books roughly since BP and ororo were married. just looking at that period from now I dont think what coates has done is the worst thing wakanda has experienced. you dont have to agree or like it but those are my thoughts which I'm more than entitled to have.

To your point about the rape trope you think coates was the first writer to touch on rape in the entirety of marvel mythos? Coates doesn't need to come to the xverse to do that as its already been done. But let me step back you, you've schooled me on ororo being a mutant supremacist so I'm sure I dont need to go into rape as it relates to her mythos. let's move on.

Dickey bastardized already established canon and rewrote it to something not even recognizable to tchallas benefit (thank the yao it was retconned back). Whether or not you like, Coates chose to add another layer to the wakanda society that I dont believe was ever touched upon. to me that's a huge difference there. nevertheless, if you care to know things I thought to be worse simply scroll up to my response to marvell.


I'm used to being in the minority in some aspects of my life so your offer is one I will certainly continue to do as I see fit.

#wakandaforever

[LastManStanding]

I've read Xpac posts on this forum for years now and I know he is a very knowledgable BP fan. So his description as described most certainly is worse and I can think of others. That said, how has Wakanda been reduced to a 3rd world country under coates? The idea of rape is not something specific to wakanka or even 3rd world countries for that matter. Its unfortunately experienced across the globe so coates showing the dark places men generally can go at times I found to be good storytelling. It would be no different of people writing on sex trafficking that occurs in countries like the US and Europe. The thing is for all of the criticism some give coates, he didnt reduce wakanda to rubble. He wasnt the one who wrote wakanda being conquered by external hostiles for the first time ever. Wakanda was destroyed under Hickman and reduced to nothing when the universes collided, mayberry wrote its border infiltrated by doom and the "civil war" of the desturi government, so people fighting within the country and tchalla working with a dictator who he didnt know for sure was one I dont think comes close to what we saw there.

What does the occasional instances of talking about other writers have to do with this discussion in relation to coates? ok so you've criticized other writers. this topic was about writers who have written far more damaging things about wakanda and its mythos than coates has been perceived to have done. xpac drawing attention to moments that he believe to be far worse by the hands of other writers, which I happen to agree with, is fair game. Moreover, whatever contradictory posts he may have made doesnt discount the point he made in regards to more egregious acts occurring under previous writers.

lol.. what does storm and what goes on in her thread have to do with a poster making a valid argument about other bp writers? I've never said Coates couldnt be criticized but, as I mentioned, wakanda being reduced to ash as captured by Hickman is far worse than anything coates has done. what mayberry wrote in doomwar is far worse than anything coates has done to wakanda. yet all i see when i come to this thread are comments about coates so please miss me with the unnecessary shade of being a regular participant. just because you don't see me post doesnt mean I'm not privy to the discussions had here and the predominant discussions I've seen are about how bad coates is for the BP mythos (I think wakanda being reduced to nothing and vibranium being made inert by way of doom outsmarting tchalla to be far worse but misery loves company. you guys have at it). in fact I was taken to task in previous versions of this thread about bringing up storm yet when I lurk here that's all discussion seem to go back to her somehow. I think that is actually more hypocritical than anything you've seen me do in this thread, wouldnt you agree? so perhaps try looking at one's self before commenting on the words of another when entering this thread. pot and kettle my friend, remember that.

at any rate, dont conclude I'm being hypocritical because I dont align to a lot of the hate coates receive here. xpac makes a great point about other things that could be considered "worse" than what coates has done including the works of Hickman and mayberry. people should be able to agree and disagree in the regard without being charged as hypocrites.

#wakandaforever

Storytelling done wrong imo

[butterflykyss]

Storytelling done wrong imo

that's fair if you feel it's wrong but to say it's the worst thing to happen to BP mythos I think is a stretch but hey I'm just in the minority here :/

[Mr MajestiK]

Shuri staying behind was stupid.

The fact that she is queen means she has an obligation to protect those those who are still alive. She can't do anything for them dead. If thats what it means to be a queen then Wakanda didn't need a queen ... it needed a hero. And it got one with Tchalla, who didn't just throw his life away needlessly but instead fight to both protect those still alive and restore those who perished. They didn't need someone to die for them as that accomplishes nothing .... they needed someone to live for them. If Shuri just goes off and kills herself when things get tough then its a good thing she stepped aside and allowed Tchalla to do the job. But I still feel that was bad character assasination.

Then you might as well say that Jonathan Hickman was stupid, considering the fact he was the one that wrote Shuri "throwing her life away" as you put it.

None of these characters write themselves, as you well know, so any of the actions they're depicted carrying out on paper is down to whoever writes their story.

All the mental gymnastics in the world cannot change this irrefutable fact.

[Mr MajestiK]

I've read Xpac posts on this forum for years now and I know he is a very knowledgable BP fan. So his description as described most certainly is worse and I can think of others. That said, how has Wakanda been reduced to a 3rd world country under coates? The idea of rape is not something specific to wakanka or even 3rd world countries for that matter. Its unfortunately experienced across the globe so coates showing the dark places men generally can go at times I found to be good storytelling. It would be no different of people writing on sex trafficking that occurs in countries like the US and Europe. The thing is for all of the criticism some give coates, he didnt reduce wakanda to rubble. He wasnt the one who wrote wakanda being conquered by external hostiles for the first time ever. Wakanda was destroyed under Hickman and reduced to nothing when the universes collided, mayberry wrote its border infiltrated by doom and the "civil war" of the desturi government, so people fighting within the country and tchalla working with a dictator who he didnt know for sure was one I dont think comes close to what we saw there.

What does the occasional instances of talking about other writers have to do with this discussion in relation to coates? ok so you've criticized other writers. this topic was about writers who have written far more damaging things about wakanda and its mythos than coates has been perceived to have done. xpac drawing attention to moments that he believe to be far worse by the hands of other writers, which I happen to agree with, is fair game. Moreover, whatever contradictory posts he may have made doesnt discount the point he made in regards to more egregious acts occurring under previous writers.

lol.. what does storm and what goes on in her thread have to do with a poster making a valid argument about other bp writers? I've never said Coates couldnt be criticized but, as I mentioned, wakanda being reduced to ash as captured by Hickman is far worse than anything coates has done. what mayberry wrote in doomwar is far worse than anything coates has done to wakanda. yet all i see when i come to this thread are comments about coates so please miss me with the unnecessary shade of being a regular participant. just because you don't see me post doesnt mean I'm not privy to the discussions had here and the predominant discussions I've seen are about how bad coates is for the BP mythos (I think wakanda being reduced to nothing and vibranium being made inert by way of doom outsmarting tchalla to be far worse but misery loves company. you guys have at it). in fact I was taken to task in previous versions of this thread about bringing up storm yet when I lurk here discussion seem to go back to her somehow. I think that is actually more hypocritical than anything you've seen me do in this thread, wouldnt you agree? so perhaps try looking at one's self before commenting on the words of another when entering this thread. pot and kettle my friend, remember that.

at any rate, dont conclude I'm being hypocritical because I dont align to a lot of the hate coates receive here. xpac makes a great point about other things that could be considered "worse" than what coates has done including the works of Hickman and mayberry. people should be able to agree and disagree in the regard without being charged as hypocrites.

#wakandaforever




I completely missed this. was the description xpac made in his post incorrect? if it wasn't then this entire post is invalid. but I will try to be succinct in my response.

I admitted the entirety of my knowledge is based on others posts? seriously stop it. we dont have to agree but let's not make egregious posts for the sake of it because you dont like what I said.

a lot of what you've said in regards to other writers I covered in my response to marvell. if you care to see my thoughts here please see above.

the other 3% who posts here have every right to express their thoughts on other writers being far worse than coates. what is the issue here? I'm not going to debate my thoughts on why I like coates, it's not going to change your mind either way even if I chose to.



to your point on mutant supremacy, if you're been reading xmen and still concluding storm is a mutant supremacist then you clearly haven't been reading all of the story being told. you talk about what's funny but what I find more hilarious is that im frank with my knowledge or lack thereof in relation to wakanda/bp yet you try to act as if you are the authority here as it relates to storm? seriously? lol ok have fun with that. again I won't argue with you as your conclusion shows where you're lacking as it relates to her and the complexities of the new status quo.


again how do my thoughts on storm have to do with anything we're talking about here? I've been reading BP books roughly since BP and ororo were married. just looking at that period from now I dont think what coates has done is the worst thing wakanda has experienced. you dont have to agree or like it but those are my thoughts which I'm more than entitled to have.

To your point about the rape trope you think coates was the first writer to touch on rape in the entirety of marvel mythos? Coates doesn't need to come to the xverse to do that as its already been done. But let me step back you, you've schooled me on ororo being a mutant supremacist so I'm sure I dont need to go into rape as it relates to her mythos. let's move on.

Dickey bastardized already established canon and rewrote it to something not even recognizable to tchallas benefit (thank the yao it was retconned back). Whether or not you like, Coates chose to add another layer to the wakanda society that I dont believe was ever touched upon. to me that's a huge difference there. nevertheless, if you care to know things I thought to be worse simply scroll up to my response to marvell.


I'm used to being in the minority in some aspects of my life so your offer is one I will certainly continue to do as I see fit.

#wakandaforever

And as I said previously, feel free to support or endorse whomsoever you choose to as that's your prerogative.

I very much doubt that any of the actual BP enthusiasts who've been posting in this thread for years, do so in the hope of being clapped on the back and applauded.

Most of us are here ostensibly for the Appreciation of the Black Panther character and the unique mythos that serves as its foundation.

Were not here to sit idly by whilst the likes of Coates writes the BP solo into the ground and were definitely not here to be le turned to by anyone who would be crying foul if their favourite character was being written out of character as you have been known to do frequently and with good cause over in the Storm Appreciation thread.

No person truly knowledgeable about the BP mythos would countenance, let alone, make crass justifications for what Coates has done to T'Challa and his saga, unless they themselves, were of the mindset that said mythos needed to be brought down a peg or two, to be in alignment with their personal inability to accept the idea of an Afrofuturistic Nation that developed independently of the rest of the world.

Because let's be very clear here, that's what it boils down to after alls been said and done.

Coates treatment of T'Challa and Wakanda, stems from his wilful inability to accept the concept of an Afrofuturistic monarchy that existed long before he came onboard with his slavery and rape camp infested mentality.

That has been the crux of his ongoing blitzkrieg upon the BP mythos.

But you'd have to be intimately familiar and appreciative of the BP mythos to understand this.

As for my reference to Storm now being numbered amongst the ranks of Mutant supremacists, X-Men/FF #1, where she went on a rant towards Johnny Storm that Franklin Richard's status as a mutant, granted him "diplomatic immunity" firmly established her as being a supremacist alongside the rest of the mutants resident within Krakoa.

Diplomatic immunity from what exactly?

His actual parents, Reed and Sue Richards, who were dismissively referred o as being "human" as if that's a bad thing.

I did something I swore I'd never do, and went ahead and purchased the aforementioned X-Men/FF #1, via Kindle, and read it for myself as opposed to relying 9n other peoples opinions and second hand information which is where you and I differ in our respective approaches to research and due diligence.

Storm comes up as a subject of discussion within this thread due to Coates insistence on using her within the current BP solo in a manner that is neither recognised or referenced within any of the X-verse books to date.

An insistence I might add, that you've been more than willing to eagerly celebrate with much effusive fervour.

So yeah, questioning your rather fluid mode of criticism dependant on which characters thread you happen to be commenting within, is more than valid and relevant to this discussion.

Your quite justifiable criticism of Storm's mischaracterization in the X-verse remains valid, which makes it all the more incongruous that that you pop into the BP thread occasionally to question BP enthusiasts for calling out Coates mischaracterization of T'Challa and his bastardised take on Wakanda.

But hey, what do I know?

I've just been an actual Black Panther enthusiast from pong before comicbook discussion forums and I'll informed opinions, were a thing.

[Marvell2100]

Considering the MA's were wanted criminals by the time they saved the women from the treehouse rape camps, avoiding the autorities kind of does make sense. Most fugitives from the law do that.

They didn't call the cops for the same reason the Punisher doesn't call the cops... they were more interested in putting them in pine boxes than in jail.

The MA aren't the Punisher and they could have brought in the authorities long before then.

But carry on XPac.

[Marvell2100]

I've read Xpac posts on this forum for years now and I know he is a very knowledgable BP fan. So his description as described most certainly is worse and I can think of others. That said, how has Wakanda been reduced to a 3rd world country under coates? The idea of rape is not something specific to wakanka or even 3rd world countries for that matter. Its unfortunately experienced across the globe so coates showing the dark places men generally can go at times I found to be good storytelling. It would be no different of people writing on sex trafficking that occurs in countries like the US and Europe. The thing is for all of the criticism some give coates, he didnt reduce wakanda to rubble. He wasnt the one who wrote wakanda being conquered by external hostiles for the first time ever. Wakanda was destroyed under Hickman and reduced to nothing when the universes collided, mayberry wrote its border infiltrated by doom and the "civil war" of the desturi government, so people fighting within the country and tchalla working with a dictator who he didnt know for sure was one I dont think comes close to what we saw there.

What does the occasional instances of talking about other writers have to do with this discussion in relation to coates? ok so you've criticized other writers. this topic was about writers who have written far more damaging things about wakanda and its mythos than coates has been perceived to have done. xpac drawing attention to moments that he believe to be far worse by the hands of other writers, which I happen to agree with, is fair game. Moreover, whatever contradictory posts he may have made doesnt discount the point he made in regards to more egregious acts occurring under previous writers.

lol.. what does storm and what goes on in her thread have to do with a poster making a valid argument about other bp writers? I've never said Coates couldnt be criticized but, as I mentioned, wakanda being reduced to ash as captured by Hickman is far worse than anything coates has done. what mayberry wrote in doomwar is far worse than anything coates has done to wakanda. yet all i see when i come to this thread are comments about coates so please miss me with the unnecessary shade of being a regular participant. just because you don't see me post doesnt mean I'm not privy to the discussions had here and the predominant discussions I've seen are about how bad coates is for the BP mythos (I think wakanda being reduced to nothing and vibranium being made inert by way of doom outsmarting tchalla to be far worse but misery loves company. you guys have at it). in fact I was taken to task in previous versions of this thread about bringing up storm yet when I lurk here discussion seem to go back to her somehow. I think that is actually more hypocritical than anything you've seen me do in this thread, wouldnt you agree? so perhaps try looking at one's self before commenting on the words of another when entering this thread. pot and kettle my friend, remember that.

at any rate, dont conclude I'm being hypocritical because I dont align to a lot of the hate coates receive here. xpac makes a great point about other things that could be considered "worse" than what coates has done including the works of Hickman and mayberry. people should be able to agree and disagree in the regard without being charged as hypocrites.

#wakandaforever




I completely missed this. was the description xpac made in his post incorrect? if it wasn't then this entire post is invalid. but I will try to be succinct in my response.

I admitted the entirety of my knowledge is based on others posts? seriously stop it. we dont have to agree but let's not make egregious posts for the sake of it because you dont like what I said.

a lot of what you've said in regards to other writers I covered in my response to marvell. if you care to see my thoughts here please see above.

the other 3% who posts here have every right to express their thoughts on other writers being far worse than coates. what is the issue here? I'm not going to debate my thoughts on why I like coates, it's not going to change your mind either way even if I chose to.



to your point on mutant supremacy, if you're been reading xmen and still concluding storm is a mutant supremacist then you clearly haven't been reading all of the story being told. you talk about what's funny but what I find more hilarious is that im frank with my knowledge or lack thereof in relation to wakanda/bp yet you try to act as if you are the authority here as it relates to storm? seriously? lol ok have fun with that. again I won't argue with you as your conclusion shows where you're lacking as it relates to her and the complexities of the new status quo.


again how do my thoughts on storm have to do with anything we're talking about here? I've been reading BP books roughly since BP and ororo were married. just looking at that period from now I dont think what coates has done is the worst thing wakanda has experienced. you dont have to agree or like it but those are my thoughts which I'm more than entitled to have.

To your point about the rape trope you think coates was the first writer to touch on rape in the entirety of marvel mythos? Coates doesn't need to come to the xverse to do that as its already been done. But let me step back you, you've schooled me on ororo being a mutant supremacist so I'm sure I dont need to go into rape as it relates to her mythos. let's move on.

Dickey bastardized already established canon and rewrote it to something not even recognizable to tchallas benefit (thank the yao it was retconned back). Whether or not you like, Coates chose to add another layer to the wakanda society that I dont believe was ever touched upon. to me that's a huge difference there. nevertheless, if you care to know things I thought to be worse simply scroll up to my response to marvell.


I'm used to being in the minority in some aspects of my life so your offer is one I will certainly continue to do as I see fit.

#wakandaforever

And XPac isn't the only BP reader with knowledge. You just choose to ignore everyone else's valid criticisms.

But yet in the Storm thread, your criticism of any writer who doesn't write Storm in the manner you prefer is apparently justified.

That is hypocrisy.

[Marvell2100]

And as I said previously, feel free to support or endorse whomsoever you choose to as that's your prerogative.

I very much doubt that any of the actual BP enthusiasts who've been posting in this thread for years, do so in the hope of being clapped on the back and applauded.

Most of us are here ostensibly for the Appreciation of the Black Panther character and the unique mythos that serves as its foundation.

Were not here to sit idly by whilst the likes of Coates writes the BP solo into the ground and were definitely not here to be le turned to by anyone who would be crying foul if their favourite character was being written out of character as you have been known to do frequently and with good cause over in the Storm Appreciation thread.

No person truly knowledgeable about the BP mythos would countenance, let alone, make crass justifications for what Coates has done to T'Challa and his saga, unless they themselves, were of the mindset that said mythos needed to be brought down a peg or two, to be in alignment with their personal inability to accept the idea of an Afrofuturistic Nation that developed independently of the rest of the world.

Because let's be very clear here, that's what it boils down to after alls been said and done.

Coates treatment of T'Challa and Wakanda, stems from his wilful inability to accept the concept of an Afrofuturistic monarchy that existed long before he came onboard with his slavery and rape camp infested mentality.

That has been the crux of his ongoing blitzkrieg upon the BP mythos.

But you'd have to be intimately familiar and appreciative of the BP mythos to understand this.

As for my reference to Storm now being numbered amongst the ranks of Mutant supremacists, X-Men/FF #1, where she went on a rant towards Johnny Storm that Franklin Richard's status as a mutant, granted him "diplomatic immunity" firmly established her as being a supremacist alongside the rest of the mutants resident within Krakoa.

Diplomatic immunity from what exactly?

His actual parents, Reed and Sue Richards, who were dismissively referred o as being "human" as if that's a bad thing.

I did something I swore I'd never do, and went ahead and purchased the aforementioned X-Men/FF #1, via Kindle, and read it for myself as opposed to relying 9n other peoples opinions and second hand information which is where you and I differ in our respective approaches to research and due diligence.

Storm comes up as a subject of discussion within this thread due to Coates insistence on using her within the current BP solo in a manner that is neither recognised or referenced within any of the X-verse books to date.

An insistence I might add, that you've been more than willing to eagerly celebrate with much effusive fervour.

So yeah, questioning your rather fluid mode of criticism dependant on which characters thread you happen to be commenting within, is more than valid and relevant to this discussion.

Your quite justifiable criticism of Storm's mischaracterization in the X-verse remains valid, which makes it all the more incongruous that that you pop into the BP thread occasionally to question BP enthusiasts for calling out Coates mischaracterization of T'Challa and his bastardised take on Wakanda.

But hey, what do I know?

I've just been an actual Black Panther enthusiast from pong before comicbook discussion forums and I'll informed opinions, were a thing.

Like I said earlier BCB, all BP writers are fair game in this thread and are subject to scrutiny. We don't drink kool-aid.

So people who come into this thread and seem to have an issue with our criticism of Coates need to step back and take a look at themselves when they go into other appreciation threads with their own criticisms.

[Mr MajestiK]

The MA aren't the Punisher and they could have brought in the authorities long before then.

But carry on XPac.

But here's the thing.

When a reader wilfully opts to ignore the very mythos that's governed T'Challa's existence within the MU, it becomes somewhat inevitable that they would compare the rebellious MA to Frank Castle.

XPac has proven over the past few years, to be the poster most likely to endorse any and all attempts by writers, to diminish, water down or otherwise render mundane, all things Black Panther mythos related.

So yes, though he can be recognised as being knowledgeable to a reasonable degree where T'Challa's trajectory is concerned, the fact that he's usually at the forefront pushing opinion as opposed to actual facts that appear on page, more or less renders his knowledge and the baseline that supports it, somewhat
unsustainable to be quite frank.

[Mr MajestiK]

And XPac isn't the only BP reader with knowledge. You just choose to ignore everyone else's valid criticisms.

But yet in the Storm thread, your criticism of any writer who doesn't write Storm in the manner you prefer is apparently justified.

That is hypocrisy.

It's the wilfully oblivious nature of the hypocrisy, that I find all the more baffling to be frank.

Imagine the consternation that would have ensued if T'Challa had been written taking over the X-Men as their leader, and near deified as their lord and saviour with all mutants praying to T'Challa for their salvation?

Some of the same cats hailing Coates for doing this with Storm in the BP solo, would be the first to scream blue murder.

[Mr MajestiK]

Like I said earlier BCB, all BP writers are fair game in this thread and are subject to scrutiny. We don't drink kool-aid.

So people who come into this thread and seem to have an issue with our criticism of Coates need to step back and take a look at themselves when they go into other appreciation threads with their own criticisms.

As you've astutely pointed out, there is absolutely no BP writer who's work has got been fairly critiqued by posters in this thread.

We dont care who you are, if your work is good, we praise you for it.

If on the otherhand the work you put forth is substandard and derogatory to the mythos, you will get called out for it and criticised accordingly.

Simple.

[DigiCom]

Wow that's a deep cut.

I constantly forget that book exists.

However, it exists at the cross roads of Pulp Action, Anime and Talking Animals and some Super hero if I remember correctly.

Genres where if you like one you probably savagely hate at least one of the other prongs.

But the people who do like it like it lots, it seems.

I legit haven't seen anyone even mention that dude since the 90's.

The life of the indie writer-artist.

Fred himself has apparently called it a mix of Indiana Jones and Final Fantasy.

Personally, I'd love to see his take on Wakanda... the man knows how to world-build. But I'm not sure he'd be right for an ongoing since his stories have a tendency to wander in some rather strange (if often interesting) directions. Consider this art:




Even without context (which would take far too long to explain) these shots are epic.

Oh, I almost forgot to mention... the first 199 issues of the book are online legally for free here:

Antarctic Press Library

[Redjack]

As you've astutely pointed out, there is absolutely no BP writer who's work has not been fairly critiqued by posters in this thread.

We dont care who you are, if your work is good, we praise you for it.

If on the otherhand the work you put forth is substandard and derogatory to the mythos, you will get called out for it and criticised accordingly.

Simple.

#facts

......

[XPac]

The MA aren't the Punisher and they could have brought in the authorities long before then.

But carry on XPac.

They obviously aren't the Punisher ... but the point is they were doing what the Punisher was going for the same reason. Asking why they didn't call the authorities is like asking why the Punisher doesnt... because they weren't interested in seeing the criminals arrested and put on trial. They were interested in killing them.

[Ezyo1000]

I've read Xpac posts on this forum for years now and I know he is a very knowledgable BP fan. So his description as described most certainly is worse and I can think of others. That said, how has Wakanda been reduced to a 3rd world country under coates? The idea of rape is not something specific to wakanka or even 3rd world countries for that matter. Its unfortunately experienced across the globe so coates showing the dark places men generally can go at times I found to be good storytelling. It would be no different of people writing on sex trafficking that occurs in countries like the US and Europe. The thing is for all of the criticism some give coates, he didnt reduce wakanda to rubble. He wasnt the one who wrote wakanda being conquered by external hostiles for the first time ever. Wakanda was destroyed under Hickman and reduced to nothing when the universes collided, mayberry wrote its border infiltrated by doom and the "civil war" of the desturi government, so people fighting within the country and tchalla working with a dictator who he didnt know for sure was one I dont think comes close to what we saw there.

What does the occasional instances of talking about other writers have to do with this discussion in relation to coates? ok so you've criticized other writers. this topic was about writers who have written far more damaging things about wakanda and its mythos than coates has been perceived to have done. xpac drawing attention to moments that he believe to be far worse by the hands of other writers, which I happen to agree with, is fair game. Moreover, whatever contradictory posts he may have made doesnt discount the point he made in regards to more egregious acts occurring under previous writers.

lol.. what does storm and what goes on in her thread have to do with a poster making a valid argument about other bp writers? I've never said Coates couldnt be criticized but, as I mentioned, wakanda being reduced to ash as captured by Hickman is far worse than anything coates has done. what mayberry wrote in doomwar is far worse than anything coates has done to wakanda. yet all i see when i come to this thread are comments about coates so please miss me with the unnecessary shade of being a regular participant. just because you don't see me post doesnt mean I'm not privy to the discussions had here and the predominant discussions I've seen are about how bad coates is for the BP mythos (I think wakanda being reduced to nothing and vibranium being made inert by way of doom outsmarting tchalla to be far worse but misery loves company. you guys have at it). in fact I was taken to task in previous versions of this thread about bringing up storm yet when I lurk here discussion seem to go back to her somehow. I think that is actually more hypocritical than anything you've seen me do in this thread, wouldnt you agree? so perhaps try looking at one's self before commenting on the words of another when entering this thread. pot and kettle my friend, remember that.

at any rate, dont conclude I'm being hypocritical because I dont align to a lot of the hate coates receive here. xpac makes a great point about other things that could be considered "worse" than what coates has done including the works of Hickman and mayberry. people should be able to agree and disagree in the regard without being charged as hypocrites.

#wakandaforever




I completely missed this. was the description xpac made in his post incorrect? if it wasn't then this entire post is invalid. but I will try to be succinct in my response.

I admitted the entirety of my knowledge is based on others posts? seriously stop it. we dont have to agree but let's not make egregious posts for the sake of it because you dont like what I said.

a lot of what you've said in regards to other writers I covered in my response to marvell. if you care to see my thoughts here please see above.

the other 3% who posts here have every right to express their thoughts on other writers being far worse than coates. what is the issue here? I'm not going to debate my thoughts on why I like coates, it's not going to change your mind either way even if I chose to.



to your point on mutant supremacy, if you're been reading xmen and still concluding storm is a mutant supremacist then you clearly haven't been reading all of the story being told. you talk about what's funny but what I find more hilarious is that im frank with my knowledge or lack thereof in relation to wakanda/bp yet you try to act as if you are the authority here as it relates to storm? seriously? lol ok have fun with that. again I won't argue with you as your conclusion shows where you're lacking as it relates to her and the complexities of the new status quo.


again how do my thoughts on storm have to do with anything we're talking about here? I've been reading BP books roughly since BP and ororo were married. just looking at that period from now I dont think what coates has done is the worst thing wakanda has experienced. you dont have to agree or like it but those are my thoughts which I'm more than entitled to have.

To your point about the rape trope you think coates was the first writer to touch on rape in the entirety of marvel mythos? Coates doesn't need to come to the xverse to do that as its already been done. But let me step back you, you've schooled me on ororo being a mutant supremacist so I'm sure I dont need to go into rape as it relates to her mythos. let's move on.

Dickey bastardized already established canon and rewrote it to something not even recognizable to tchallas benefit (thank the yao it was retconned back). Whether or not you like, Coates chose to add another layer to the wakanda society that I dont believe was ever touched upon. to me that's a huge difference there. nevertheless, if you care to know things I thought to be worse simply scroll up to my response to marvell.


I'm used to being in the minority in some aspects of my life so your offer is one I will certainly continue to do as I see fit.

#wakandaforever

Okay I'm only going to address the first part of your post, about BP and us enthusiast criticizing writers. You say you agree with X-Pac because he is knowledgeable..
95% of the people posting in this thread are just as knowledgeable and some are even more knowledgeable then he is. His claim to Hickman being worse then Coates with that scene about Shuri dying and T'Challa being cool with it. Here is the scene for context:



What follows that panel is Shuri telling T'Challa she will miss him and him responding that he will see her soon. Hardly him being"cool" with her dying. And you claim this is worse then this:






That's how Jonathan Hickman ended his arc with T'Challa and coates scene takes place 8 months later.

So yeah Coates has done more damage. As for Mayberry? Everyone in here has unanimously agreed that (prior to Coates) he is the worst BP writer and Doom war was astronomically stupid. However, your assumption that under Coates pen that T'Challa didn't know he was dealing with dictators is false and shows a lack of knowledge about his run as in that issue T'Challa is having a internal conversation in which he is saying he knows they are all known despots, yet met with them just to see what they would say and when the *gasp* betrayal happens, even casuals reading the book went "WTF that was obviously a set up".

Doom war was stupid and damaging. And Hickmans saving grace to T'Challa abd Wakanda happened in the scene that I posted above. Coates though has: introduced rape, misogyny, gender inequality, and an uncaring government into Wakanda in S1, all of that stuff goes against established continuity especially the gender inequality because the mythos has been very much supporting and putting women in roles of authority.

S2 he introduced Wakanda being a Columbus analogue, and completely contradicting the entire reason for why Lee and Kirby created Wakanda (he also did this in S1 but he just kept on compiling onto it here) by making them into colonizers and driving the denizens out in chains, and changed the Wakandan gods so he could power up Storm and simultaneously throw T'Challa and Wakanda under the bus to do so.

S3 he takes it to another level by making intergalactic Wakanda literally America except 5x worse in regards to slavery. He claims that Wakandans if given the chance would essentially become colonizers (even though they could of done that in the 616 if they really wanted to but chose not to) and makes this season an allegory of the slave trade.

All this is infinitely more damaging then anything the others have done because he imposed isht into the mythos that completely goes against continuity because (in a recent interview) he confirms he thinks it's his role to tell slave stories so now Wakanda is shackled with isht that BP and his world was created to combat and go against in the first place