Black Panther Appreciation 2020

[Marvell2100]

Arguing whether suicide is worse or better than rape gets into a tricky area which I don't want to really get into specially if anyone on the board has had to deal with one or both. Saying one is better or worse comes off too insensitive.

But I will say that killing off Shuri means more than random girl never to be seen again about to be raped. No offense to random girl never to be seen again.. I certainly feel bad for her, and was glad the MA saved her. But I just have far more emotional investment in the Shuri character than I do random girl, so when something happens to her I genuinely do think it's a much bigger deal. Shuri has a bigger impact on me as a fan and a much bigger impact on the mythos as a whole which random girl never quite reached in the 2 or so pages she existed in.

You are the one saying suicide. No one else in this thread has used that word.

[Mr MajestiK]

partial list.

BLACKJACK - Alex Simmons & Various
CONCRETE PARK - Erika Alexander & Tony Puryear
GENIUS - Marc Bernardin & various
BLACK - Roye Okupe & Various
MIRANDA MERCURY - Brandon Thomas & Various
MOLLY DANGER -Jamal Igle
EXCELLENCE - Brandon Thomas, Khary Randolph & Emilio Lopez
MALIKA - Roye Okupe & various
DESTROYER - Victor LaValle & Dietrich Smith
NIOBE, SHE IS LIFE - Sebastian A Jones, Amandla Stenberg & Ashley A Woods
VINDICATORS (and lots of others) - Kevin Grevioux & Various
STORMBRINGERS - Korby Marks & various
VESCELL - Enrique Carrion & John Upchurch
BITTER ROOT - David Walker, Chuck Brown & Sanford Green
HORSEMEN- Jiba Molei Anderson

Concrete Park I have alongside some issues of Vescell.

The rest I will definitely seek out.

Thanks so much for this list.

[XPac]

The MA did not have to kill those men, they could have just turned them over, whether you consider them criminals or not. Just like how you keep saying that it was stupid for Shuri to stay behind in TRO, others are saying the actions of the MA were stupid. They didn't have to kill those men to stop the rapes.

That is the poor writing by Coates that so many point out yet you keep defending.

If you're a criminal, you can argue calling the cops is pretty stupid too. You're likely trying to AVOID the cops if you're in that position.

You keep calling it poor writing but really, MOST murderers don't go around calling the cops for help. That's pretty normal. We don't see people asking why Punisher doesn't do it, so I'm not sure why we should expect the MA to. THey're in the exact same position.... they're fugitives from the law willfully commiting crimes and wanted by the authorities. They have good reason to avoid the very people you're suggesting they contact.

[Marvell2100]

And once again I find myself wondering why someone who's supposed to be so "knowledgeable" about the BP mythos, would like the Dora Milaje to Frank Castle as if there's some shared pedigree between these characters?

BCB, listen to the argument. Excuse are made for the actions of the DM but Shuri did something dumb.

The difference is that some of us are critical the writer for while others are blaming the character for what the writer is doing.

[Ezyo1000]

If T'Challa really not cool with Shuri killing herself then he can freaking STOP her from killing herself. In the least try a bit harder to talk her out of it... or just flat out knock her butt out and teleport her back to safety. He's in the business of saving lives... might as well add his sister to that list.

And I stand by my arguement that killing Shuri is worse than the tree house rape scene, for the simple reason that Shuri actually matters. Tree house rape scene is like a relatively unimportant 2 page scene will rapists who we never see again and victims who we never see again. Shuri conversely is the most important supporting character in the BP mythos... killing her is a BIG deal.

Thankfully her death was reversed, but I don't believe it changes the notion that she's the most valuable aspect in the BP mythos short of T'Challa himself. So for me, killing her is easily the most worst thing you can do short of killing T'CHalla himself. My opinion at least ... clearly others feel differently and that's fine.

... He really didn't have any to to convince her because promixa shows up right as he leaves, and it's not his place to tell someone what they can or can't do with their life. Abd no it was simply two pages. For the rape scene. The rape concept was brought up multiple times and we do see those characters again. But again your entitled to your opinion you say Hickmans scene is worse then the rape scenes.. so tell me this, is this not also as if if not a worse character assassination as Hickman:



Notice the victims you claim we never see again. So is this as bad as Hickmans scene or not?

[XPac]

You are the one saying suicide. No one else in this thread has used that word.

Use a different word if you like, the end result is the same. Shuri was willfully going to throw her life away for nothing.

But because she's such an important part of the mythos (and on a personal level becaue I'm a fan of hers), I personally consider her death far worse than random girl never to be seen again about to be raped. Again, nothing against random girl never to be seen again... I felt bad for her. I really did. But Shuri death would have a much much bigger impact on me as a reader, and a much much bigger impact on the mythos as a whole than random girl never to be seen again. IMO at least.

[Mr MajestiK]

During the tree house rape scene they WERE vigillantes. WHen you're a fugitive from the law wanted for murder, you stop being apart of the government authority.

And T'Challa wasn't on speaking term with the past Panther at that point in the story. They shut him down in TIme Runs Out when he faied to detonate the bomb, and weren't show again on good term with them until the very end of season 1.

And this somehow, "justifies" T'Challa sitting down with known despots and non-Wakandans for ideas as to how to put down insurrection within his Nation?

You stay spinning with amazing tenacity.

[Marvell2100]

If you're a criminal, you can argue calling the cops is pretty stupid too. You're likely trying to AVOID the cops if you're in that position.

You keep calling it poor writing but really, MOST murderers don't go around calling the cops for help. That's pretty normal. We don't see people asking why Punisher doesn't do it, so I'm not sure why we should expect the MA to. THey're in the exact same position.... they're fugitives from the law willfully commiting crimes and wanted by the authorities. They have good reason to avoid the very people you're suggesting they contact.

It was pretty stupid for Coates to have the DM do the things they did in the first place. He set up the story that way and it was pretty stupid.

They didn't have to become criminals as you like to call them.





It

[Marvell2100]

Use a different word if you like, the end result is the same. Shuri was willfully going to throw her life away for nothing.

But because she's such an important part of the mythos (and on a personal level becaue I'm a fan of hers), I personally consider her death far worse than random girl never to be seen again about to be raped. Again, nothing against random girl never to be seen again... I felt bad for her. I really did. But Shuri death would have a much much bigger impact on me as a reader, and a much much bigger impact on the mythos as a whole than random girl never to be seen again. IMO at least.

So you're saying murder and suicide are the same.

[XPac]

... He really didn't have any to to convince her because promixa shows up right as he leaves, and it's not his place to tell someone what they can or can't do with their life. Abd no it was simply two pages. For the rape scene. The rape concept was brought up multiple times and we do see those characters again. But again your entitled to your opinion you say Hickmans scene is worse then the rape scenes.. so tell me this, is this not also as if if not a worse character assassination as Hickman:



Notice the victims you claim we never see again. So is this as bad as Hickmans scene or not?

I think there are plenty of people who would disagree with you over the idea that it's not a famiy members place to stop a family member from throwing their life away. People do all the time. I'd argue it's a family memebers obligation to try and save them if they can.

And we'll have to agree to disagree about the importance of Shuri vs the importance of the rape victims in the tree house. Again, don't want to go too hard on them because I felt bad for them in the tree house scene but ultimately SHuri actualy matters... the people in the tree house scene do not. In fact I'd say that Shuri is the single most important person in the franchise short of T'Challa himself. I don't think there's even a close second.

[Ezyo1000]

Sure. No one is saying they HAD to kill the rapists. Just like no one says Punisher HAD to kill the people he kills. I'm not arguing they HAD to kill the rapists... what I am arguing is that they're not part of the government authority at that point in the story. They're fugitives wanted for doing exactly what they did at the treehouse... murder rapist. And wanted murderers typically don't go around calling the cops for help. That's fairly normal behavoir for criminals in general.

Then explain BP WoW. When Aneka wasn't a fugitive, she was apart of said government and killed the tribe leader instead of turning him in or calling for backup? An investigation which would of led to further investigation of the tribes and learning about the other crimes and rape going on which gives the government they claim to turn a blind eye to it, a chance to address it. But instead she withheld the information and decided to handle it herself then threw a fit when she had to face consequences and tried to pass blame

[XPac]

So you're saying murder and suicide are the same.

If you're putting yourself in a position where you know you will get murdered then yeah... in that context it's effectively the same thing. Staying was suicide and she knew it.

[Vibranium Weave]

partial list.

BLACKJACK - Alex Simmons & Various
CONCRETE PARK - Erika Alexander & Tony Puryear
GENIUS - Marc Bernardin & various
BLACK - Roye Okupe & Various
MIRANDA MERCURY - Brandon Thomas & Various
MOLLY DANGER -Jamal Igle
EXCELLENCE - Brandon Thomas, Khary Randolph & Emilio Lopez
MALIKA - Roye Okupe & various
DESTROYER - Victor LaValle & Dietrich Smith
NIOBE, SHE IS LIFE - Sebastian A Jones, Amandla Stenberg & Ashley A Woods
VINDICATORS (and lots of others) - Kevin Grevioux & Various
STORMBRINGERS - Korby Marks & various
VESCELL - Enrique Carrion & John Upchurch
BITTER ROOT - David Walker, Chuck Brown & Sanford Green
HORSEMEN- Jiba Molei Anderson

Thank you for the list

[XPac]

Then explain BP WoW. When Aneka wasn't a fugitive, she was apart of said government and killed the tribe leader instead of turning him in or calling for backup? An investigation which would of led to further investigation of the tribes and learning about the other crimes and rape going on which gives the government they claim to turn a blind eye to it, a chance to address it. But instead she withheld the information and decided to handle it herself then threw a fit when she had to face consequences and tried to pass blame

Yeah, you can very much argue she had an obligation to contact the authorities at that point. If anyone was asking why she didn't call the authorities at that point rather than the tree house rape, I'd be agreeing with them.

[DigiCom]

Yeah, you can very much argue she had an obligation to contact the authorities at that point. If anyone was asking why she didn't call the authorities at that point rather than the tree house rape, I'd be agreeing with them.

I'm pretty sure we ALL are asking that question. But it's all "Punisher! Just as bad!".