Black Panther Appreciation 2020

[DigiCom]

I'd still like the answer to a question I posited some time back:

What good reason, OTHER than "It happened that way in the comics" is there to use Namor or Doom in Black Panther II?

And forget about the "iconic character" BS. To the average filmgoer, Namor is an Aquaman clone (despite the fact that he was published first) and Doom is that guy wearing the trash-bag costume in the Josh Trank film.

[XPac]

I'd still like the answer to a question I posited some time back:

What good reason, OTHER than "It happened that way in the comics" is there to use Namor or Doom in Black Panther II?

And forget about the "iconic character" BS. To the average filmgoer, Namor is an Aquaman clone (despite the fact that he was published first) and Doom is that guy wearing the trash-bag costume in the Josh Trank film.

The reason would simply be if Coogler and/or Fiege want to tell a story with Doom or Namor. If they do, they will. And if they don't they won't.

And this point all the really important BP characters have been used, so the field is sort of wide open for the next.

[Will Evans]

I’d rather introduce Namor as a character elsewhere. And then lead up to Namor vs T’Challa in Black Panther III is you need to.


Black Panther II is better served if you keep the momentum from the first one going. Either the plot is a fall out of T’Challa introducing the real Wakanda to the world. Or fall out from T’Challa and Shuri missing for five years.


There’s no point in introducing a non-relatable external threat like Namor beyond fanboys want to see it.


The comics had Namor go after Wakanda due to Phoenix Five and that ain’t happening in the MCU.

Also most external threats to Wakanda are because someone wants the Wakandan natural resource. (vibranium). Namor doesn’t give a poo about vibranium.

[Dboi654]

A senior editor from IGN and PlayStation (I think) posted a question on which superhero people would like to see a video game for and by which developer and quite a few amounts of people were interested in a BP video game.

Good to see BP getting some love. Makes me a bit hopeful in this dire time.

[Mike_Murdock]

I'd still like the answer to a question I posited some time back:

What good reason, OTHER than "It happened that way in the comics" is there to use Namor or Doom in Black Panther II?

And forget about the "iconic character" BS. To the average filmgoer, Namor is an Aquaman clone (despite the fact that he was published first) and Doom is that guy wearing the trash-bag costume in the Josh Trank film.

Probably the biggest reason for either of them would be because it could set up more of the Marvel Universe by introducing either Atlantis or Latveria.

[XPac]

Probably the biggest reason for either of them would be because it could set up more of the Marvel Universe by introducing either Atlantis or Latveria.

If you wanted to debut either of those franchises, you can argue BP is the best option.

Either showing up in say Spider-Man or Shang-Chi or Guardians of the Galaxy would feel sort of random. Eternals might work for Namor though. Doctor Strange and Thor work OKAY. But on paper, BP might be the most organic.

Of course we're just speaking hypothetically. I'm sure marvel can fit them into whatever plans they have, whether it's BP or something else.

[Blind Wedjat]

I'd still like the answer to a question I posited some time back:

What good reason, OTHER than "It happened that way in the comics" is there to use Namor or Doom in Black Panther II?

And forget about the "iconic character" BS. To the average filmgoer, Namor is an Aquaman clone (despite the fact that he was published first) and Doom is that guy wearing the trash-bag costume in the Josh Trank film.

Answer: there isn't.

Like I said in my previous post, fanboys usually think about what these films can do for them and not what they should be. The fanboy dream seems to be a fantasy war between Wakanda and Atlantis or Latveria but there's no reason to tell this story (yet). I keep making the comparison with Civil War and BvS. Aside from the fact that the MCU film was better written and directed than the DCEU one, a large reason why Civil War worked in favour of BvS was the build-up advantage the MCU had. Superman had ONE FILM (a divisive and allegedly underperforming one at that) and what did Snyder do for the sequel? Introduce Batman (with TDKR stuff), Gotham, Lex Luthor, Doomsday (With DOS stuff), Wonder Woman, the Justice League, and Darkseid teases, all in one film with a barely developed Superman. MCU fanboys know BvS is a bad movie and they know it's mostly because it's protagonists are underdeveloped and forced into a conflict via a convoluted plot, but they want BP2 to be the same thing because "wAkAnDa vS aTlAnTiS wOuLd bE sO ePiC!" or "tHE mCU nEeDs tO rEdEeM dOoM!" Absolutely none of it is about making a better BP film or growing T'Challa as a character.

Completely agree with the "iconic character" stuff. I don't even know why this keeps being brought up when it comes to Marvel. This is the same studio that made Groot and Rocket iconic. Whoever was A-list or whatever in the comics really doesn't matter much. Thanos wasn't known by the general public and now he's one of the most iconic movie villains of the last decade. Same with Killmonger. If the only reason Namor and Doom have to be in the sequel is because "they're iconic" then they don't have much to offer. And nobody even knows what Doom is really like. You can't ask a random guy on the street to tell you about Doom. Chances are they know him as that one guy that got his powers from the same accident the F4 did, which isn't true as he's a sorcerer first and foremost. Neither he or Namor are Joker for instance.

I’d rather introduce Namor as a character elsewhere. And then lead up to Namor vs T’Challa in Black Panther III is you need to.


Black Panther II is better served if you keep the momentum from the first one going. Either the plot is a fall out of T’Challa introducing the real Wakanda to the world. Or fall out from T’Challa and Shuri missing for five years.


There’s no point in introducing a non-relatable external threat like Namor beyond fanboys want to see it.


The comics had Namor go after Wakanda due to Phoenix Five and that ain’t happening in the MCU.

Also most external threats to Wakanda are because someone wants the Wakandan natural resource. (vibranium). Namor doesn’t give a poo about vibranium.

Exactly. I don't get why this is so hard to understand. We've barely gotten anything concrete but I'm 99% sure this is the angle Coogler is going for. He said he wants to makes something with meaning, and I don't really think you can get that with Namor. Doom might be better with that regard, but he's also Romani and a minority so to speak, so I don't think it will be fair to paint him as a colonizer or something.

If we ever get Namor/Doom in a BP film, I don't think it's gonna go down like AvX or Doomwar in the way people think. Probably something like Sturm und Drang where each of them were discussing politics of sorts with the focus being on T'Challa, not an all out war just because. I don't think Coogler is that shallow.

As Redjack also said, the story was never good for both sides in the first place.

[Blind Wedjat]

If you wanted to debut either of those franchises, you can argue BP is the best option.

Either showing up in say Spider-Man or Shang-Chi or Guardians of the Galaxy would feel sort of random. Eternals might work for Namor though. Doctor Strange and Thor work OKAY. But on paper, BP might be the most organic.

Of course we're just speaking hypothetically. I'm sure marvel can fit them into whatever plans they have, whether it's BP or something else.

Or you can...I don't know...put them in a Fantastic Four movie???

[DigiCom]

Chances are they know him as that one guy that got his powers from the same accident the F4 did, which isn't true as he's a sorcerer first and foremost.

Actually, Doom was a scientist first & foremost. The badass sorcerer thing was really only a factor in the last 15 years or so.

[XPac]

Or you can...I don't know...put them in a Fantastic Four movie???

FF is probably in the same boat as Namor and Doom. I'll wager they'll appear in something else before a Fantastic Four movie too. I'm actually guessing Ant-Man.

I think they found a pretty descent formula with Civil War, where it debut Spider-Man and Black Panther.

[Ezyo1000]

Accountability when one is possessed by the Phoenix can admittedly be a very murky subject... and that is especially true when the subject is Namor, who frankly can be argued is a mass murderer even when he's not possessed by the Phoenix.

When Jean first became Dark Phoenix, she murdered the planet of the Brocolli people. An entire planet was murdered. And when Scott was possessed, he was planning on destroying all of humanity. He didn't suceed, unlike Jean and Namor... but that was the plan. In both the case of Jean and Scott, I think it's fair to give them the benefit of the doubt and blame it on Phoenix. But Namor on a given day can flood the surface world completely on his own so it's difficult to say where Namor ends and the Phoenix starts. Difficult to the point where I'm not sure he can fairly be held accountable simply because we'll never know for sure.

But I think at the end of the day, marvel wasn't planning on making Namor a villain so in all likelihood that was more Phoenix than Namor. If the idea was to turn him into an actual villain I'd agree with you... but as the plan seems to have him still be a hero afterwards, I'm doubtful the idea was that was all Namor. Again, just my interpretation.

And yes, Namor surrendering himself to justice would have been the right thing to do. Though I suspect if Namor was going to surrender himself it would be to Steve rather than T'Challa simply because he likely wouldn't feel like being executed anytime soon. But as so often happens in the comic book world, things turned out the way they needed to turn out. Namor was needed in the Illuminati since he was the ONLY person willing to actually do what needed to be done. Had Namor taken himself off the board, Wakanda and Atlantis might have been sparred a war but the 616 universe probably would have been destroyed in an incursion. So in the grand scheme of things, things worked out for the best. Comic book characters are lucky that way.

All I'm hearing are excuses. Can't say that it was the Phoenix when Namor was A mocking TChalla and prodding him by trying to have shuri stand down and saying Wakanda couldn't win the war against Atlantis. Then after TChalla said he would let Shuri know, he mocked him again by saying your welcome like an arrogant prick.. when he purposefully flooded Wakanda without remorse? Hickman failed and I will forever Shane that BS he pulled by letting Namor live. He literally contributed nothing to SW and thus should of been murdered hard by TChalla. TChalla should of used the gauntlet to give Namor as many deaths as the Wakandans he killed, including the ones killed by the Black order. THEN TChalla should of revived him with the rest of the 616 using the reality gem

[XPac]

All I'm hearing are excuses. Can't say that it was the Phoenix when Namor was A mocking TChalla and prodding him by trying to have shuri stand down and saying Wakanda couldn't win the war against Atlantis. Then after TChalla said he would let Shuri know, he mocked him again by saying your welcome like an arrogant prick.. when he purposefully flooded Wakanda without remorse? Hickman failed and I will forever Shane that BS he pulled by letting Namor live. He literally contributed nothing to SW and thus should of been murdered hard by TChalla. TChalla should of used the gauntlet to give Namor as many deaths as the Wakandans he killed, including the ones killed by the Black order. THEN TChalla should of revived him with the rest of the 616 using the reality gem

We'll have to agree to disagree about that.

IMO the heroes should put aside their differences and work together to stop Doom and the multiverse. AFTER the multiverse is saved, if T'Challa and Namor want to try and kill each other (even though at this point further conflict serves no purpose whatsoever), then more power to them... but they should save their personal issues for AFTER the crisis is resolved. Heroes trying to kill each other WHILE a bigger threat is looming just made them look bad.

The fact that they were able to put aside their differences and work together showed the heroes actually acting like heroes... something SORELY needed in the story as the heroes looked pretty bad through Hickmans run.

[FLEX HECTIC]

Kevin Feige: "Who do you guys think I am Kathleen Kennedy or something... Yaw'll chill out up in here I got this!"


(quickly runs out of thread with head on a swivel)

[Klaue's Mixtape]

[skyvolt2000]

I'd still like the answer to a question I posited some time back:

What good reason, OTHER than "It happened that way in the comics" is there to use Namor or Doom in Black Panther II?

And forget about the "iconic character" BS. To the average filmgoer, Namor is an Aquaman clone (despite the fact that he was published first) and Doom is that guy wearing the trash-bag costume in the Josh Trank film.

There is NONE. There is to be no pandering to fanboys who want to have an orgasm at Namor killing Wakandans. That is what all this is about.

Doom? Maybe in BP 3. If there is an Easter egg of Wakanda funding a young genius named Reed Richard trip into space with his fiancee Sue Storm, her brother, his BBF Ben and Dr Victor Von Doom. Then we hear about how it went bad or there was some accident. Now the seeds for a FF movie is there and Doom could show up in Wakanda for revenge and FF shows up since they were another set of white folks Shuri had to fix.

Doom in BP 2 NO.

We got too many villains collecting dust to not dig one up. Serpent Society? Wrecking Crew? But we are not using BP 2 for fanboy orgasms because some are bitter that every attempt to make the film fail did not work.