Black Panther Appreciation 2020

[KingNomarch]

Yeah I find it a bit annoying, like it feels as if MCU T'Challa isn't a super genius at all. They so realize that Wakanda was advanced long before Shuri was born and T'Challa was around longer too and is a super genius in his own right. That needs to be made clear.

The only thing we've gotten so far was that he made the CW suit which is visually cool but unimpressive compared to Shuri's suits and other tech that we seen. If they choose to recast, I'm hoping that T'Challa designs the suit for the sequel or at least starts being several steps ahead of everyone else.

[chief12d]

Yeah I find it a bit annoying, like it feels as if MCU T'Challa isn't a super genius at all. They so realize that Wakanda was advanced long before Shuri was born and T'Challa was around longer too and is a super genius in his own right. That needs to be made clear.

Shuri can be smarter but it’d be nice if there was a better effort to show T’Challa was a tech genius too. There was a deleted scene in Civil War I think where Black Widow explains and is impressed by the suit design and I think small stuff like that goes a long way in establishing that while Shuri is the main innovator, T’Challa can hold his own. Better yet, if they were able to show they had different areas of specialty I think this solves a lot of issues.

Shuri can be better in engineering and practical sciences where T’Challa is superior in theoretical physics and stuff. That way Shuri can handle Wakanda’s infrastructure and his gadgets but when we get to stuff like Shadow Physics and teleportation we’d be seeing T’Challa take charge. But T’Challa barely having his genius referenced or commented on is really disappointing even though I understand why Coogler gave that trait to Shuri.

[XPac]

Shuri can be smarter but it’d be nice if there was a better effort to show T’Challa was a tech genius too. There was a deleted scene in Civil War I think where Black Widow explains and is impressed by the suit design and I think small stuff like that goes a long way in establishing that while Shuri is the main innovator, T’Challa can hold his own. Better yet, if they were able to show they had different areas of specialty I think this solves a lot of issues.

Shuri can be better in engineering and practical sciences where T’Challa is superior in theoretical physics and stuff. That way Shuri can handle Wakanda’s infrastructure and his gadgets but when we get to stuff like Shadow Physics and teleportation we’d be seeing T’Challa take charge. But T’Challa barely having his genius referenced or commented on is really disappointing even though I understand why Coogler gave that trait to Shuri.

I think the problem with comics is that people guage intelligence purely by tech feat. Ie scientist X must be smarter than scientist Y if scientist X built a machine which defeated Galactus while scientist Y only built a machine which defeated Silver Surfer. And I'll admit I'm sometimes guilty of that too... I put Pym ahead of a lot of scientist due to Slotts Mighty Avengers run where he had Pym create magical teleporting doors and an infinity mansion. It put Starks Avengers tech to shame.

But really there are a lot of ways for a person to shine in the intelligence department... and for T'Challa specifically it usually isn't relient on tech feats. They're there... but it's never been a crutch for the character like it has been for Reed or Stark (though Aarons Avengers run is putting a lot of focus on it... which is cool too). Showing his brilliance in a setting outside of lab I think is probably the way to go, since it doesn't basically force him and Shuri to step on each others toes. Him showcasing his brilliance in a more political or military way I think actually better serves the charactrer. Maybe not in a sort of Rumbles board way where people are looking for tech feats... but I an emphasis in that direction actually better suits him.

[Marvell2100]

I really don't care that they put out a coffee table book about whatever's going on in the MCU and that it was compiled by Shuri. As long as T'Challa gets the feats and the cred, I'm good. T'Challa probably told Shuri to gather that info anyway.

One MCU manual isn't going to bother me. And just about all of what's in the book is about other people.

[Marvell2100]

Yo, I hear you! Narration, plotting, manifestation of the different character's voices. These are just some of the things that are far superior than anything Coates has made. I would even challenge that "The Client " might be a strong #1-a. Hey we all know that these are strange times, the list even sniffing at Coates on a list of top 10 is crazy.

Coates shouldn't have a story in the top 15.

Now if they said the best stories about Ayo, Aneka or Third World Wakanda then Coates hands down is #1.

[chief12d]

I think the problem with comics is that people guage intelligence purely by tech feat. Ie scientist X must be smarter than scientist Y if scientist X built a machine which defeated Galactus while scientist Y only built a machine which defeated Silver Surfer. And I'll admit I'm sometimes guilty of that too... I put Pym ahead of a lot of scientist due to Slotts Mighty Avengers run where he had Pym create magical teleporting doors and an infinity mansion. It put Starks Avengers tech to shame.

But really there are a lot of ways for a person to shine in the intelligence department... and for T'Challa specifically it usually isn't relient on tech feats. They're there... but it's never been a crutch for the character like it has been for Reed or Stark (though Aarons Avengers run is putting a lot of focus on it... which is cool too). Showing his brilliance in a setting outside of lab I think is probably the way to go, since it doesn't basically force him and Shuri to step on each others toes. Him showcasing his brilliance in a more political or military way I think actually better serves the charactrer. Maybe not in a sort of Rumbles board way where people are looking for tech feats... but I an emphasis in that direction actually better suits him.

Well there’s no way to evaluate scientific intelligence without actual feats of scientific accomplishment. I don’t disagree that T’Challa should be a mastermind in a political and tactical sense. But in addition to those facets of knowledge, I’d like there to be a recognition of his raw scientific talent which has been part of the character for decades. To be clear, I don’t think that should be his main intellectual trait (I care much more about his strategic and tactical skill than his inventive prowess), but I do think that if we’re going to be entering an era where Shuri is “the smart sibling” it wouldn’t hurt to have some parameters so T’Challa can keep his historic intelligence to some degree.

This is more an issue with the MCU, which is what my ideas were touching on specifically. Shuri remains about as underused as she always has been in the comics and it’s made perfectly clear in books like Avengers and his own (though to a much lesser degree) that T’Challa is a genius on par with Tony. The MCU has failed to show that to the same extent. Giving each sibling an area of expertise with some amount of crossover seems much more preferable to me than just jettisoning decades of established characterization that pushes T’Challa as an intellectual heavy weight. Shuri and T’Challa can both be Top 10 geniuses imo.

[Marvell2100]

Well there’s no way to evaluate scientific intelligence without actual feats of scientific accomplishment. I don’t disagree that T’Challa should be a mastermind in a political and tactical sense. But in addition to those facets of knowledge, I’d like there to be a recognition of his raw scientific talent which has been part of the character for decades. To be clear, I don’t think that should be his main intellectual trait (I care much more about his strategic and tactical skill than his inventive prowess), but I do think that if we’re going to be entering an era where Shuri is “the smart sibling” it wouldn’t hurt to have some parameters so T’Challa can keep his historic intelligence to some degree.

This is more an issue with the MCU, which is what my ideas were touching on specifically. Shuri remains about as underused as she always has been in the comics and it’s made perfectly clear in books like Avengers and his own (though to a much lesser degree) that T’Challa is a genius on par with Tony. The MCU has failed to show that to the same extent. Giving each sibling an area of expertise with some amount of crossover seems much more preferable to me than just jettisoning decades of established characterization that pushes T’Challa as an intellectual heavy weight. Shuri and T’Challa can both be Top 10 geniuses imo.

Hopefully we get to seem more of T'Challa genius in BP2. The first movie established who everyone was. BP2 should go more in depth about BP - motivations, techs, feats and LI.

[Ezyo1000]

Shuri can be smarter but it’d be nice if there was a better effort to show T’Challa was a tech genius too. There was a deleted scene in Civil War I think where Black Widow explains and is impressed by the suit design and I think small stuff like that goes a long way in establishing that while Shuri is the main innovator, T’Challa can hold his own. Better yet, if they were able to show they had different areas of specialty I think this solves a lot of issues.

Shuri can be better in engineering and practical sciences where T’Challa is superior in theoretical physics and stuff. That way Shuri can handle Wakanda’s infrastructure and his gadgets but when we get to stuff like Shadow Physics and teleportation we’d be seeing T’Challa take charge. But T’Challa barely having his genius referenced or commented on is really disappointing even though I understand why Coogler gave that trait to Shuri.

I think it doesn't have to be one is smarter then the other. It could be just like I said, T'Challa makes an upgrade to the habit himself, and Shuri could comment that's she's surprised to see him tinkering in the lab since hes busy ruling a nation, or they can go the Batman autopilot route where T'Challa solves something that Shuri or anyone In The Wakandan design group couldn't figure out (be it new tech or whatever) or even if it was as simple as them having a conversation about theoretical physics like when Shuri was talking to banner in IW about vision (except T'Challa wouldn't be made the fool). There's a million ways this could go.

[Ezyo1000]

Well there’s no way to evaluate scientific intelligence without actual feats of scientific accomplishment. I don’t disagree that T’Challa should be a mastermind in a political and tactical sense. But in addition to those facets of knowledge, I’d like there to be a recognition of his raw scientific talent which has been part of the character for decades. To be clear, I don’t think that should be his main intellectual trait (I care much more about his strategic and tactical skill than his inventive prowess), but I do think that if we’re going to be entering an era where Shuri is “the smart sibling” it wouldn’t hurt to have some parameters so T’Challa can keep his historic intelligence to some degree.

This is more an issue with the MCU, which is what my ideas were touching on specifically. Shuri remains about as underused as she always has been in the comics and it’s made perfectly clear in books like Avengers and his own (though to a much lesser degree) that T’Challa is a genius on par with Tony. The MCU has failed to show that to the same extent. Giving each sibling an area of expertise with some amount of crossover seems much more preferable to me than just jettisoning decades of established characterization that pushes T’Challa as an intellectual heavy weight. Shuri and T’Challa can both be Top 10 geniuses imo.

This. Shuri being the genius doesn't mean she just monopolizes it in its entirety. And while we do see T'Challas strategic mind (the car chase with dodging traffic using his claws, using the force push to destroy the car, and using his forward momentum to run on the wall, line up on klaws svu and take out the tire, as well as the disrupting the habit) I want alot more of that with some splashes of super genius prowess. There's alot of scientific fields out there, and we know he created hos habit and maybe the emp beads. Just give us something clear cut

[chief12d]

Hopefully we get to seem more of T'Challa genius in BP2. The first movie established who everyone was. BP2 should go more in depth about BP - motivations, techs, feats and LI.

Assuming they continue BP2 with T'Challa, I agree 100%. I really want to see them dig into him as a leading man and why he's the greatest BP to ever live. His distinct worldview and how his morality should take center stage with a villain that can, like Killmonger, challenge him personally and physically. I'm still holding out hope that we get Achebe.

His supporting cast (mainly Shuri) should get a Disney+ show in the meantime, which seemed like the logical direction to go in to begin with. I actually think a Shuri or Agents of Wakanda D+ show would've gotten more hype than Hawkeye, it certainly would've generated more interest than Moonknight or She-Hulk (among casual audiences at least).

[chief12d]

This. Shuri being the genius doesn't mean she just monopolizes it in its entirety. And while we do see T'Challas strategic mind (the car chase with dodging traffic using his claws, using the force push to destroy the car, and using his forward momentum to run on the wall, line up on klaws svu and take out the tire, as well as the disrupting the habit) I want alot more of that with some splashes of super genius prowess. There's alot of scientific fields out there, and we know he created hos habit and maybe the emp beads. Just give us something clear cut

And to your first point I find it interesting it never goes the other way. No one's requesting that T'Challa monopolize all the hand to hand combat skill in the BP franchise. Because there's room for multiple badass martial artists alongside him even though he should be the best. But one of his most identifiable traits (his scientific mind) can be grafted onto another character, who then goes on to be his physical equal as well?

It's a give and take. If Shuri is going to be a top tier scientist while T'Challa does absolutely nothing to contribute to tech development I don't want Shuri becoming an accomplished martial artist. They should BOTH know how to handle themselves in combat and in a lab. The ratio can vary but it doesn't make sense to make Shuri significantly smarter than T'Challa then also make her his equal physically and perhaps even leadership-wise.

[Redjack]

i never understand why people think this is a competition.

No two geniuses are alike and, while their skills may overlap, it's most likely their INTERESTS don't.

The easiest way to think of the difference between Shuri and T'Challa is she is focused on pure research and experimentation for its own sake (lots of adventure potential there) and he is concerned with practical applications and that can solve problems that are in front of him or coming up.

She might take too long to wrap her head around immediate issues while he is too keen to slap together an energy siphon or cosmic cannon right away. again, drama and conflict without competition.

How seriously do they take magic in a scientific context? Wakanda's history would indicate, for their culture, there's little difference between the two (contrast with Tony Stark and Reed Richards who are hardcore anti-magic as an actual thing). And also, what branches of magic are natural to a central African culture (possibly the first African actual culture ever) vs the western European kinds we're used to seeing portrayed?

etc.

drama doesn't always come from actual conflict. sometimes differences can be both energizing and happy.

once a year the siblings might have a contest, JUST FOR FUN, to see who can solve a random problem using just the stuff on a workbench.

how do you actually unpgrade a techno jungle? who decides what's the best angle to take on that?

point is, genius, after a certain point, can't actually be quantified or measured, only expressed.

[chief12d]

i never understand why people think this is a competition.

No two geniuses are alike and, while their skills may overall, it's most likely their INTERESTS don't.

The easiest way to think of the difference between Shuri and T'Challa is she is focused on pure research and experimentation for its own sake (lots of adventure potential there) and he is concerned with practical applications and that can solve problems that are in front of him or coming up.

She might take too long to wrap her head around immediate issues while he is too keen to slap together an energy siphon or cosmic cannon right away. again, drama and conflict without competition.

How seriously do they take magic in a scientific context? Wakanda's history would indicate, for their culture, there's little difference between the two (contrast with Tony Stark and Reed Richards who are hardcore anti-magic as an actual thing). And also, what branches of magic are natural to a central African culture (possibly the first African actual culture ever) vs the western European kinds we're used to seeing portrayed?

etc.

drama doesn't always come from actual conflict. sometimes differences can be both energizing and happy.

once a year the sibling might have a contest to see who can solve a random problem using just the stuff on a workbench. just for FUN.

how do you actually unpgrade a techno jungle? who decides what's the best angle to take on that?

point is, genius, after a certain point, can't actually be qualified or measured, only expressed.

It's not a competition but we can't just act like these things don't impact portrayal. Marvel needs to do as you and I have suggested, which is outline what T'Challa and Shuri's respective areas of expertise are. Otherwise you end up with what we have now, which is T'Challa splitting every other tech feat and Shuri lacking a real place, despite having nearly 3 years to figure her character out.

The idea of bringing in magic is also a great idea, which is what the Coates run has done with Shuri. Despite the mixed results I think the potential is there once it's given firm boundaries and comes with a shift in personality. I'd like to see her go in a more techno-sorcery direction myself. The real issue is that Marvel doesn't know what they want Shuri and the BP franchise as a whole.

[Redjack]

It's not a competition but we can't just act like these things don't impact portrayal. Marvel needs to do as you and I have suggested, which is outline what T'Challa and Shuri's respective areas of expertise are. Otherwise you end up with what we have now, which is T'Challa splitting every other tech feat and Shuri lacking a real place, despite having nearly 3 years to figure her character out.

The idea of bringing in magic is also a great idea, which is what the Coates run has done with Shuri. Despite the mixed results I think the potential is there once it's given firm boundaries and comes with a shift in personality. I'd like to see her go in a more techno-sorcery direction myself. The real issue is that Marvel doesn't know what they want Shuri and the BP franchise as a whole.

look at DC's Thanagar. high tech society largely based around the utilization of a metal whose primary characteristic is it cancels out magic.

i am NOT attacking any other writer with this but, when you're writing science heroes (a huge number of marvel heroes are science heroes) you need to either have your won working knowledge of the sciences in use or access to people you can ask.

otherwise things get muddy. what's the difference between Richards, Stark and Pym? What's the difference between Doom and T'Challa?

if you don't know, you're missing out on a LOT of good storytelling.

"She's bleeding out, Bruce! DO something?"

"Damn it, I'm not THAT kind of doctor!"

[Marvell2100]

I think the big thing is just consistency. Excluding Doom, Reed, Tony, Hank and Bruce have had decades of comics that consistently tell everyone how brilliant they are with feats sprinkled here and there as further proof. That's whats lacking for T'Challa. He doesn't have a lengthy run of comics that showcase his abilities. And when a writer does have him do anything impressive as far as tech, fights, etc., Unfans usually start crying and calling him a mary sue when in fact, the writer is just characterizing him as he was intended to be.

He doesn't have 300+ issues of comics that consistently show this.

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