Black Panther Appreciation 2020

[Marvell2100]

Assuming they continue BP2 with T'Challa, I agree 100%. I really want to see them dig into him as a leading man and why he's the greatest BP to ever live. His distinct worldview and how his morality should take center stage with a villain that can, like Killmonger, challenge him personally and physically. I'm still holding out hope that we get Achebe.

His supporting cast (mainly Shuri) should get a Disney+ show in the meantime, which seemed like the logical direction to go in to begin with. I actually think a Shuri or Agents of Wakanda D+ show would've gotten more hype than Hawkeye, it certainly would've generated more interest than Moonknight or She-Hulk (among casual audiences at least).

I agree, I think D+ is the way to go to showcase more of BP, Wakanda and the supporting cast. Most of the Marvel shows on D+ are scheduled for about 6 episodes believe so it shouldn't be too hard to fit a BP/Wakanda -themed show in their somewhere.

In fact, I think they should do a show about a young T'Chaka.

[taozen]

This. Shuri being the genius doesn't mean she just monopolizes it in its entirety. And while we do see T'Challas strategic mind (the car chase with dodging traffic using his claws, using the force push to destroy the car, and using his forward momentum to run on the wall, line up on klaws svu and take out the tire, as well as the disrupting the habit) I want alot more of that with some splashes of super genius prowess. There's alot of scientific fields out there, and we know he created hos habit and maybe the emp beads. Just give us something clear cut

Another example of his strategic mind is his instructing Shuri to turn on the energy pulse train in order to nullify the vibranium suits. Unfortunately I think that Coogler sees T'Challa as only a stoic super soldier with a strong moral base. He is Wakanda's James Bond King while Shuri is the super genius. We BP comic book fans know T'Challa is top ten Marvel geniuses but he is not that in the MCU as of yet.

[Ascended]

Another example of his strategic mind is his instructing Shuri to turn on the energy pulse train in order to nullify the vibranium suits. Unfortunately I think that Coogler sees T'Challa as only a stoic super soldier with a strong moral base. He is Wakanda's James Bond King while Shuri is the super genius. We BP comic book fans know T'Challa is top ten Marvel geniuses but he is not that in the MCU as of yet.

Definitely agree with those saying we need to see some of T'Challa's genius. I really missed that in the films. At a guess, the MCU is downplaying this to prevent T'Challa from being pure competency porn; with someone like Stark who's a "billionaire playboy genius philanthropist" he's still a jackass with a drinking problem. T'Challa on the other hand, is all of that and more, and has no big obvious personality flaws to balance it out.

[Ezyo1000]

i never understand why people think this is a competition.

No two geniuses are alike and, while their skills may overlap, it's most likely their INTERESTS don't.

The easiest way to think of the difference between Shuri and T'Challa is she is focused on pure research and experimentation for its own sake (lots of adventure potential there) and he is concerned with practical applications and that can solve problems that are in front of him or coming up.

She might take too long to wrap her head around immediate issues while he is too keen to slap together an energy siphon or cosmic cannon right away. again, drama and conflict without competition.

How seriously do they take magic in a scientific context? Wakanda's history would indicate, for their culture, there's little difference between the two (contrast with Tony Stark and Reed Richards who are hardcore anti-magic as an actual thing). And also, what branches of magic are natural to a central African culture (possibly the first African actual culture ever) vs the western European kinds we're used to seeing portrayed?

etc.

drama doesn't always come from actual conflict. sometimes differences can be both energizing and happy.

once a year the siblings might have a contest, JUST FOR FUN, to see who can solve a random problem using just the stuff on a workbench.

how do you actually unpgrade a techno jungle? who decides what's the best angle to take on that?

point is, genius, after a certain point, can't actually be quantified or measured, only expressed.

I agree with this, in fact I have been on record multiple times stating that I felt in the sequel, T'Challa should of made changes to the habit (upgrades) and Shuri responds the same way he did about the emp beads "upgrades,? But they work perfectly" in which he gives her the same line about having to teach her thst just because something work's doesn't mean it can't be improved, and Which she responds with a don't use my words against me, I'm the one always teaching YOU. Its a throw back to the joke in the first movie and shows the sibling banter. Though I don't know if this would work as well with a recast.

Point being, alot of us here don't mind Shuri being the primary genius as her schtick, but not at the expense of T'Challas genius being essentially written out and given away to his supporting cast. Shockingly, there can be multiple super geniuses in a franchise. We just want Marvel to remember that that T'Challa is one of the smartest men on earth

[Ezyo1000]

Definitely agree with those saying we need to see some of T'Challa's genius. I really missed that in the films. At a guess, the MCU is downplaying this to prevent T'Challa from being pure competency porn; with someone like Stark who's a "billionaire playboy genius philanthropist" he's still a jackass with a drinking problem. T'Challa on the other hand, is all of that and more, and has no big obvious personality flaws to balance it out.

But he does have flaws, he is very close to the vest and does things like spy and have contingency plans for heroes. And that's hardly an excuse or take his genius away and give it to his sister.. I mean they have given some credit to his genius with the mention of him designing hos cw habit and the other stuff mentioned above, but there needs to be something 100% clear cut no doubt in your mind, the dude can create an Ironman suit or an atomic bomb of he chose it do so.

[XPac]

Definitely agree with those saying we need to see some of T'Challa's genius. I really missed that in the films. At a guess, the MCU is downplaying this to prevent T'Challa from being pure competency porn; with someone like Stark who's a "billionaire playboy genius philanthropist" he's still a jackass with a drinking problem. T'Challa on the other hand, is all of that and more, and has no big obvious personality flaws to balance it out.

For MCU T'Challa, I don't think the movies had problems showing that he had flaws at all. He was frankly highly flawed in both Civil War and his solo movie... and that's not a knock against him as anyone would be in his position. He spent almost his entire debut attempting to murder an innocent man (or at least a man innocent of what T'Challa was trying to murder him for).

More than anything else, him having the most competent effective supporting cast in any movie means T'Challa will have to spread out the feats a bit. We're not talking Jimmy Olson and Lois Lane here... BP's supporting cast proved capable even with BP himself out for a good third of the movie. Coogler built up the supporting cast, but that meant a bit of airtime and a couple feats which might have otherwise gone to the title character going to his supporting cast. There's a trade off there.

[chief12d]

look at DC's Thanagar. high tech society largely based around the utilization of a metal whose primary characteristic is it cancels out magic.

i am NOT attacking any other writer with this but, when you're writing science heroes (a huge number of marvel heroes are science heroes) you need to either have your won working knowledge of the sciences in use or access to people you can ask.

otherwise things get muddy. what's the difference between Richards, Stark and Pym? What's the difference between Doom and T'Challa?

if you don't know, you're missing out on a LOT of good storytelling.

"She's bleeding out, Bruce! DO something?"

"Damn it, I'm not THAT kind of doctor!"

There was a thread on this very topic a few weeks back now that I think about it. It was about the areas of expertise for the various super-geniuses of the Marvel universe and I found it amusing that T'Challa was a big question mark for a lot of people (including myself).

For Tony it was easy to identify his talent as engineering and robotics, with Reed/Doom you got theoretical and multiversal physics, Hank's got biochemistry and biotechnology down, and Bruce has got nuclear/radiation physics. So I think for most writers, when it's hard enough for them to gauge what T'Challa's core scientific strength is, it becomes even more difficult to incorporate Shuri effectively as another genius.

And like you said, that's leaving story possibilities on the table. T'Challa and Shuri can be smart in different ways but before you can even begin to show that you need to know where their talents lie. Same goes for depicting any aspect of a character that isn't explicitly tied to a combat feat. Not many writers are able to capture the three-steps-ahead aspect of T'Challa's strategic mind because they don't have an understanding of how to be that way themselves or lack access to people who do.

[XPac]

There was a thread on this very topic a few weeks back now that I think about it. It was about the areas of expertise for the various super-geniuses of the Marvel universe and I found it amusing that T'Challa was a big question mark for a lot of people (including myself).

For Tony it was easy to identify his talent as engineering and robotics, with Reed/Doom you got theoretical and multiversal physics, Hank's got biochemistry and biotechnology down, and Bruce has got nuclear/radiation physics. So I think for most writers, when it's hard enough for them to gauge what T'Challa's core scientific strength is, it becomes even more difficult to incorporate Shuri effectively as another genius.

And like you said, that's leaving story possibilities on the table. T'Challa and Shuri can be smart in different ways but before you can even begin to show that you need to know where their talents lie. Same goes for depicting any aspect of a character that isn't explicitly tied to a combat feat. Not many writers are able to capture the three-steps-ahead aspect of T'Challa's strategic mind because they don't have an understanding of how to be that way themselves or lack access to people who do.

I think T'Challa is harder to pigeon hole as far as expertise goes because he's similar to Batman in that he tries to be good at everything. When you want to be an uber prep guy, you need to be able to deal with as many fields as possible... but the price there is you're not necessarily an expert in any one field.

[chief12d]

For MCU T'Challa, I don't think the movies had problems showing that he had flaws at all. He was frankly highly flawed in both Civil War and his solo movie... and that's not a knock against him as anyone would be in his position. He spent almost his entire debut attempting to murder an innocent man (or at least a man innocent of what T'Challa was trying to murder him for).

More than anything else, him having the most competent effective supporting cast in any movie means T'Challa will have to spread out the feats a bit. We're not talking Jimmy Olson and Lois Lane here... BP's supporting cast proved capable even with BP himself out for a good third of the movie. Coogler built up the supporting cast, but that meant a bit of airtime and a couple feats which might have otherwise gone to the title character going to his supporting cast. There's a trade off there.

I agree with Ascended in that T'Challa doesn't have any deep-rooted character flaws. He was flawed in Civil War but that was more circumstantial than T'Challa being driven by an inherent issue with his personality. One could argue he's imperious and clearly thinks highly of himself, but I don't think he's in the same class as Tony or Thor when it comes to personal failings. Even in the first film, T'Challa's only real flaw was his adoration of his father and the traditions he upheld.

He's a lot like Steve in that way. Both of them are all around good guys with a strong moral compass who's arcs are less about them changing and a bit more about how they change the world around them. T'Challa is a "good man" but the question the franchise is gearing up to answer is how does a good man also be a "good king" and deal with the new pressures he's opened up the kingdom to.

So because T'Challa is a "static" character, I understand the appeal in shedding some of his core comic traits and spreading the skills to other characters. After all, Steve is just a soldier, where T'Challa is one of the wealthiest men alive, a king, a scientist, and has the backing of a god. Him being a top-tier scientist is an important aspect of his character, but I don't think it's so essential that Shuri can't handle the tech stuff.

It allows you to hone in on his central struggle/arc as an enlightened warrior-king. And beefs up the supporting cast, so it's a win-win. However, it does have the effect of making T'Challa a bit less of a true leading man in the same vein as Tony, who's supporting cast is relatively weak and don't do too much.

It shouldn't be a handicap unless the supporting cast is pushed at the expense of the main hero though. It's great to have a competent supporting cast but the last thing you want is for audiences to walk away from the film with the idea the lead is the weak link or lacking in character. Coogler managed to avoid that for the most part in the first film and while I hope he continues to elevate the side characters, I'm really hoping that he propels T'Challa forward with new feats and consistent screentime.

[XJlock]

Preview images for Avengers #36: https://comic-watch.com/news/sneak-p...he-avengers-36

[XPac]

Preview images for Avengers #36: https://comic-watch.com/news/sneak-p...he-avengers-36

Hmmm... it's interesting that in the fight against T'Challa he doesn't have he ankh around his neck. And he doesn't have Thors hammer either. I wonder if we'll get an MK at relatively normal power levels fighting BP, or if it's still the upgraded version.

Either way, it looks like a lot of fun.

[Marvell2100]

I agree with Ascended in that T'Challa doesn't have any deep-rooted character flaws. He was flawed in Civil War but that was more circumstantial than T'Challa being driven by an inherent issue with his personality. One could argue he's imperious and clearly thinks highly of himself, but I don't think he's in the same class as Tony or Thor when it comes to personal failings. Even in the first film, T'Challa's only real flaw was his adoration of his father and the traditions he upheld.

He's a lot like Steve in that way. Both of them are all around good guys with a strong moral compass who's arcs are less about them changing and a bit more about how they change the world around them. T'Challa is a "good man" but the question the franchise is gearing up to answer is how does a good man also be a "good king" and deal with the new pressures he's opened up the kingdom to.

So because T'Challa is a "static" character, I understand the appeal in shedding some of his core comic traits and spreading the skills to other characters. After all, Steve is just a soldier, where T'Challa is one of the wealthiest men alive, a king, a scientist, and has the backing of a god. Him being a top-tier scientist is an important aspect of his character, but I don't think it's so essential that Shuri can't handle the tech stuff.

It allows you to hone in on his central struggle/arc as an enlightened warrior-king. And beefs up the supporting cast, so it's a win-win. However, it does have the effect of making T'Challa a bit less of a true leading man in the same vein as Tony, who's supporting cast is relatively weak and don't do too much.

It shouldn't be a handicap unless the supporting cast is pushed at the expense of the main hero though. It's great to have a competent supporting cast but the last thing you want is for audiences to walk away from the film with the idea the lead is the weak link or lacking in character. Coogler managed to avoid that for the most part in the first film and while I hope he continues to elevate the side characters, I'm really hoping that he propels T'Challa forward with new feats and consistent screentime.

T'Challa's greatest strength is also his greatest flaw. T'Challa is an ends justifies the means kinda guy. It works in his favor because he doesn't care about the collateral damage, only that Wakanda is protected.

If it alienates friends or if he needs to use them in anyway to accomplish his goals, then he'll do it. He keeps things close to the vest and rarely includes others in on his plans. He may mover them into position but he doesn't give the details on why he needs them to do things. He often has them doing things that they don't even know they're doing.

[XPac]

T'Challa's greatest strength is also his greatest flaw. T'Challa is an ends justifies the means kinda guy. It works in his favor because he doesn't care about the collateral damage, only that Wakanda is protected.

If it alienates friends or if he needs to use them in anyway to accomplish his goals, then he'll do it. He keeps things close to the vest and rarely includes others in on his plans. He may mover them into position but he doesn't give the details on why he needs them to do things. He often has them doing things that they don't even know they're doing.

True to an extent with the comic version.... but I'm not really sure he doesn't care about collateral damage in the MCU. You can make an arguement he placed Wakanda and the universe in greater danger by trying to help the Vision to the degree they did. He's a bit nicer than the Priest version of the character.

[Marvell2100]

True to an extent with the comic version.... but I'm not really sure he doesn't care about collateral damage in the MCU. You can make an arguement he placed Wakanda and the universe in greater danger by trying to help the Vision to the degree they did. He's a bit nicer than the Priest version of the character.

No, MU Panther and MCU Panther aren't 100% alike.

[Ezyo1000]

Hmmm... it's interesting that in the fight against T'Challa he doesn't have he ankh around his neck. And he doesn't have Thors hammer either. I wonder if we'll get an MK at relatively normal power levels fighting BP, or if it's still the upgraded version.

Either way, it looks like a lot of fun.

It looks like T'Challa loses his fight with mk unless those panels aren't in order which if that's the case is pretty lame