Black Panther Appreciation 2020

[Redjack]

I agree with Grace. That puts an unneccesary pressure on Coogler to reinvent Atlantis. Marvel didnt give Coogler the time and resources for a Vibraninum mine fight are they going to do it for Atlantis??

Apparently Coogler wanted to do Kraven, but cant because of Sony.. Yes I know thats an old rumor, but I take it she's saying he tried to get him again.

no one at Marvel is copying anything dc does. certainly not their film product. nobody.

[Blind Wedjat]

It's not even about knowing whether Black Panther would have been a hit or not. They didn't know Captain Marvel was gonna be a hit before they claimed she was the most powerful Avenger. It's about good storytelling.

I brought up Lord of the Rings for a reason. Those films are not only unmatched when it comes to epic battle sequences, but also unmatched when it comes to telling a story through battle. The Battle of Helm's Deep takes up 40 mins of The Two Towers and it has its own narrative arc within it. We actually getting rising stakes and tension. We actually get character development. We actually get payoff. Aside from Thor's arrival in Wakanda, we get none of those things in the Battle of Wakanda. We may have gotten those things if the conclusion of the Infinity Saga was longer.

And there's a lot we as BP fans lost in the process. One of T'Challa's closest friends in the comics is Captain America and all we got with them together are a few fight scenes and handshakes. You can't compare that to the level of friendship, respect and trust they have in the comics despite it being teased more than once.

Not to mention that none of the main Wakandan characters get any character development throughout both movies. I'm not talking about cool moments. I'm talking about character development. This is the first time any of them saw their country invaded and the film never lets it settle and dawn on them emotionally. Absolutely nothing from M'Baku or Okoye.

And if we're talking cool moments, there's a whole host of them too. No motivational kingly speech from T'Challa. No display of all of Wakanda's technology being used and exhausted (despite T'Challa ordering to "engage all defences"). No display of T'Challa's strategies and tactics for war. No one-on-one fight with him vs the Black Order. Not enough of Shuri talking science and technology with Banner. Could have been a great way to compare Wakandan science to Western science.

And that's just Infinity War. I can honestly forgive Endgame more on this part.

[Ezyo1000]

i wouldn't really care about wakandan redshirts if T'challa's "hero moment" was more then 3 second cgi add on while Okoye got a full on fight with a main boss.

and yes, I realize T'challa's moment was more doing kingly and General **** and yes the running with steve head on was cool but I'm a greedy as T'challa stan I WANT MOAR lol

I guess that's it too, he didn't really get that "cool" moment, and yeah that punch to Black dwarf was totally last minute. In fact, to make up for it, they should of had them fight proper in EG. BD really got the short end of the stick

[Ezyo1000]

It's not even about knowing whether Black Panther would have been a hit or not. They didn't know Captain Marvel was gonna be a hit before they claimed she was the most powerful Avenger. It's about good storytelling.

I brought up Lord of the Rings for a reason. Those films are not only unmatched when it comes to epic battle sequences, but also unmatched when it comes to telling a story through battle. The Battle of Helm's Deep takes up 40 mins of The Two Towers and it has its own narrative arc within it. We actually getting rising stakes and tension. We actually get character development. We actually get payoff. Aside from Thor's arrival in Wakanda, we get none of those things in the Battle of Wakanda. We may have gotten those things if the conclusion of the Infinity Saga was longer.

And there's a lot we as BP fans lost in the process. One of T'Challa's closest friends in the comics is Captain America and all we got with them together are a few fight scenes and handshakes. You can't compare that to the level of friendship, respect and trust they have in the comics despite it being teased more than once.

Not to mention that none of the main Wakandan characters get any character development throughout both movies. I'm not talking about cool moments. I'm talking about character development. This is the first time any of them saw their country invaded and the film never lets it settle and dawn on them emotionally. Absolutely nothing from M'Baku or Okoye.

And if we're talking cool moments, there's a whole host of them too. No motivational kingly speech from T'Challa. No display of all of Wakanda's technology being used and exhausted (despite T'Challa ordering to "engage all defences"). No display of T'Challa's strategies and tactics for war. No one-on-one fight with him vs the Black Order. Not enough of Shuri talking science and technology with Banner. Could have been a great way to compare Wakandan science to Western science.

And that's just Infinity War. I can honestly forgive Endgame more on this part.

That's the thing though, they prepared to throw whatever they could to make Cap marvel a hit, T'Challa, they didn't put that into him, they thought he would do fine but not a break out, and certainly not a cultural movement, that's the problem, if they had, they would of made Wakanda look way better. And yeah Wakanda was just a backdrop and a convenient army for the Russo's to use and it shows on how the battle unfolds

[Vordan]

no one at Marvel is copying anything dc does. certainly not their film product. nobody.

Well that’s not entirely true. Didn’t we get Civil War because of BvS (lmao hilarious how that turned out)? And it was after WW got announced that Marvel starting pushing a Captain Marvel film.

[Vordan]

I started watching the Grace Randolph video, but when she started by saying that Black Panther 2 is ripping off Aquaman, that really made me mad. What's wrong with Grace?! She talks as if she's never read a Black Panther comic! T'Challa and Namor have been at each other's throats since they 1st meet in the Defenders. Hell, go read Strum Und Drang to see another time Wakanda & Atlantis went to war.


I swear, if Black Panther the movie had come out after Aquaman, Randolph would have said Coogler copied Aquaman. But because it was the other way around, she says it was a coincidence. What's wrong with Grace Randolph?!

She gives a lot of good info about comics and the entertainment business, but any time those subject intersect with race and politics she says something stupid.

Grace is a clickbaiter, don’t put much stock in what she says. I doubt she’s ever read a BP comic in her life.

[MouserGrey]

Sooooooo Grace Randolph is stating that her sources over at Marvel are claiming that Namor will be the villain for Black Panther 2. She prefaced this in a previous video she released earlier today when outlining the topics she was going to talk about which pertained to Shang Chi, Black Panther 2 and a Star wars film.....as for me, I'm not buying any news as fact until official announcements are made

https://youtu.be/HlfAc1J857E

Grace Randolph is a flibbertigibbet.

[Blind Wedjat]

Well that’s not entirely true. Didn’t we get Civil War because of BvS (lmao hilarious how that turned out)? And it was after WW got announced that Marvel starting pushing a Captain Marvel film.

Civil War I'd give you that one (because they admitted that they went for it because BvS was announced - it was an option before then), but Wonder Woman and Captain Marvel were only announced a few months apart. Surely it was in development before then.

[MindofShadow]

It's not even about knowing whether Black Panther would have been a hit or not. They didn't know Captain Marvel was gonna be a hit before they claimed she was the most powerful Avenger. It's about good storytelling.

I brought up Lord of the Rings for a reason. Those films are not only unmatched when it comes to epic battle sequences, but also unmatched when it comes to telling a story through battle. The Battle of Helm's Deep takes up 40 mins of The Two Towers and it has its own narrative arc within it. We actually getting rising stakes and tension. We actually get character development. We actually get payoff. Aside from Thor's arrival in Wakanda, we get none of those things in the Battle of Wakanda. We may have gotten those things if the conclusion of the Infinity Saga was longer.

And there's a lot we as BP fans lost in the process. One of T'Challa's closest friends in the comics is Captain America and all we got with them together are a few fight scenes and handshakes. You can't compare that to the level of friendship, respect and trust they have in the comics despite it being teased more than once.

Not to mention that none of the main Wakandan characters get any character development throughout both movies. I'm not talking about cool moments. I'm talking about character development. This is the first time any of them saw their country invaded and the film never lets it settle and dawn on them emotionally. Absolutely nothing from M'Baku or Okoye.

And if we're talking cool moments, there's a whole host of them too. No motivational kingly speech from T'Challa. No display of all of Wakanda's technology being used and exhausted (despite T'Challa ordering to "engage all defences"). No display of T'Challa's strategies and tactics for war. No one-on-one fight with him vs the Black Order. Not enough of Shuri talking science and technology with Banner. Could have been a great way to compare Wakandan science to Western science.

And that's just Infinity War. I can honestly forgive Endgame more on this part.

oh, LotR (extended) is my favorite movie of all time. Yes movie... it i just one giant movie broken up.

Shows how good Tolkien was and Jackson was at adapting that no death in MCU hits as hard as Boromir or Theoden. Not even close.

Or how you can line up 60 heroes and its nothing compared to the Rohirrim arriving at Minis Tirith. LOTR is just a different class of story telling all around and this is coming from someone that LOVES the mcu.

I would GLADLY watched 10 hours of IW and Endgame story lol. GLADLY.

Everything you say is correct. I understand why everything was rushed but yeah... Endgame was considered "too long" and is nothing compared to LOTR.

One of the gifts of T'challa showing up late in the history of hte MCU is that we got one of teh best solo movies of all time because they got someone like Coogler and let Coogler do his thing. One of the curses is that we missed out on a lot of relationships that we see int he comics and will never get to see on screen. T'challa and Tony never even met for instance.

[Redjack]

Well that’s not entirely true.

Yes. it's entirely true.

Didn’t we get Civil War because of BvS (lmao hilarious how that turned out)? And it was after WW got announced that Marvel starting pushing a Captain Marvel film.

No. Sorry if that breaks fan theorizing but, no. The MCU is not playing catch-up or even in real competition with the DC films. It's the other way around. Fiege's story group is years ahead of what the press and fans and, frankly, their competition, are thinking about. Years.

No. The MCU in no way reacts to the DC films or makes decisions based upon them.

DC has yet to put a team on the field in terms of movies. Not since Dark Knight. They win on TV, in Live Action and animation, but those are different sets of people making, frankly, better decisions about how to proceed with the source material. The movie guys are a mess.

The MCU owns the field in terms of movies. The gold medalist doesn't crib off the bronze medalist.

[skyvolt2000]

Well that’s not entirely true. Didn’t we get Civil War because of BvS (lmao hilarious how that turned out)? And it was after WW got announced that Marvel starting pushing a Captain Marvel film.

Disney plans out stuff like movies years in advance.

A film like the Little Mermaid was being worked on 5 years before you saw that film.


Cap Marvel was being thought of in 2013 Marvel got to work on Carol in less than a year and green lighted a year later and took 5 years.

Wonder Woman was green lighted on in 2010. It did not start work until 2015. Before that she was in movie limbo since 1996. It took 5 to get WW started. It took one year to get her done.


Black Panther was in the works since 2005, script was worked on in 2011, film green lighted in 2014. New script in 2015.

Development took 13 years. Once it was a go-we got a film in 3 years.

Cyborg got nothing since Justice League. If Marvel was following DC-there would be no Black Panther film since Dc seems to have issues with black folks. Marvel has 3 Blade movies & Black Panther and to a lesser point Into Spiderverse. Films with a black lead. Does Spawn 2, Black panther 2, Blade 4, Bitter Root & Black have to come out before they try one?

[Ezyo1000]

oh, LotR (extended) is my favorite movie of all time. Yes movie... it i just one giant movie broken up.

Shows how good Tolkien was and Jackson was at adapting that no death in MCU hits as hard as Boromir or Theoden. Not even close.

Or how you can line up 60 heroes and its nothing compared to the Rohirrim arriving at Minis Tirith. LOTR is just a different class of story telling all around and this is coming from someone that LOVES the mcu.

I would GLADLY watched 10 hours of IW and Endgame story lol. GLADLY.

Everything you say is correct. I understand why everything was rushed but yeah... Endgame was considered "too long" and is nothing compared to LOTR.

One of the gifts of T'challa showing up late in the history of hte MCU is that we got one of teh best solo movies of all time because they got someone like Coogler and let Coogler do his thing. One of the curses is that we missed out on a lot of relationships that we see int he comics and will never get to see on screen. T'challa and Tony never even met for instance.

I feel the benefits for BP coming out later out weigh the benefits of him coming out sooner. Like, could you imagine what type of frakkery would of befallen him? He would be overshadowed in genius like banner, overshadowed in leadership and h2h, and tech wise taking a backseat to Tony. The only thing that may of been different is that he would likely primarily be showcasing his genius instead of Shuri. But again it would be like he was playing back up to h2h genius and tech to them all.

[Vordan]

Yes. it's entirely true.




No. Sorry if that breaks fan theorizing but, no. The MCU is not playing catch-up or even in real competition with the DC films. It's the other way around. Fiege's story group is years ahead of what the press and fans and, frankly, their competition, are thinking about. Years.

No. The MCU in no way reacts to the DC films or makes decisions based upon them.

DC has yet to put a team on the field in terms of movies. Not since Dark Knight. They win on TV, in Live Action and animation, but those are different sets of people making, frankly, better decisions about how to proceed with the source material. The movie guys are a mess.

The MCU owns the field in terms of movies. The gold medalist doesn't crib off the bronze medalist.

https://www.businessinsider.com/batm...nce-2016-4?amp

" ... After they [Warner Bros.] announced 'Batman v Superman,' [Kevin Feige] said, 'you guys are absolutely right.' We needed to do something challenging with the material or we were going to start to lose the audience," Russo said.

Everyone thought a Batman vs. Superman film would be a slam dunk and help establish the DCEU as a competitor. Nobody thought Snyder would utterly botch it to the extent he did. They outright say BvS is what made Marvel decide to go with Civil War, so they wouldn’t lose their momentum. You’re right that they were probably thinking of doing Civil War, but I think BvS getting announced was what pushed Feige to green light the project.

Just to be clear I agree with everything you said in regards to the quality gap. BvS was absolute trash and Civil War rightfully blew it out of the water. WB wanted that Avengers money and rushed to get it, which is how someone like Snyder got put in charge. He’s no Feige that’s for damn sure. But since JL, DC has started to turn it around, so we’ll see how things go. Their latest couple of films have all been critical successes.

Disney plans out stuff like movies years in advance.

A film like the Little Mermaid was being worked on 5 years before you saw that film.


Cap Marvel was being thought of in 2013 Marvel got to work on Carol in less than a year and green lighted a year later and took 5 years.

Wonder Woman was green lighted on in 2010. It did not start work until 2015. Before that she was in movie limbo since 1996. It took 5 to get WW started. It took one year to get her done.


Black Panther was in the works since 2005, script was worked on in 2011, film green lighted in 2014. New script in 2015.

Development took 13 years. Once it was a go-we got a film in 3 years.

Cyborg got nothing since Justice League. If Marvel was following DC-there would be no Black Panther film since Dc seems to have issues with black folks. Marvel has 3 Blade movies & Black Panther and to a lesser point Into Spiderverse. Films with a black lead. Does Spawn 2, Black panther 2, Blade 4, Bitter Root & Black have to come out before they try one?

Being thought of sure, but you don’t think the fact that they never made a Black Widow movie, and didn’t announce Cap Marvel until after WW got announced to be connected?

Cyborg has been dumped unceremoniously but that’s really no surprise. BP was a breakout character in the blockbuster film of that year. Cyborg starred in the dumpster fire finale to Snyder’s term as head of DC Films. And there’s a huge gap in quality and quantity of stories between the two. BP has the MacGregor, Priest, and Hudlin runs to draw from, he’s got material to use as a solo character, and he has an awesome location in Wakanda and a unique role as a king AND super hero. He’s a black power fantasy, and that helps him stand out. Cyborg’s best stories are as part of the Titans not the JL, and DC did a terrible job building up solo stories for him. He was the only black JL member and he didn’t get a solo which is just insulting. Marvel has done a much better job of treating their black heroes right, I can’t disagree with you. Only black hero DC is doing really well right now is Mr. Terrific I feel.

To keep it on topic though, as bad as some of us might dislike Coates, just remember: BP still has a very sound foundation that’s the envy of every other black hero out there. No one else even comes close to what T’Challa has.

[Redjack]

https://www.businessinsider.com/batm...nce-2016-4?amp

Everyone thought a Batman vs. Superman film would be a slam dunk and help establish the DCEU as a competitor. Nobody thought Snyder would utterly botch it to the extent he did.

Nobody?

Try "everybody." Man of Steel made money but it underperformed WILDLY. No one expected better from the other efforts and none of them did what people wanted until Wonder Woman. None of them.

They outright say BvS is what made Marvel decide to go with Civil War, so they wouldn’t lose their momentum. You’re right that they were probably thinking of doing Civil War, but I think BvS getting announced was what pushed Feige to green light the project.

Nope. It was always on the books. They may have decided to use that TITLE and make the announcement early but, as has been pointed out, these things are in pre-production LONG before people are able to report on them or have an opinion. Snyder was never a threat to the MCU. That's fanboy stuff.

Just to be clear I agree with everything you said in regards to the quality gap. BvS was absolute trash and Civil War rightfully blew it out of the water. WB wanted that Avengers money and rushed to get it, which is how someone like Snyder got put in charge. He’s no Feige that’s for damn sure. But since JL, DC has started to turn it around, so we’ll see how things go. Their latest couple of films have all been critical successes.

They are no threat. Even if they have a hit now, here and there, they can't close the gap the MCU has made over the last decade. The race is over. Marvel won.

you don’t think the fact that they never made a Black Widow movie, and didn’t announce Cap Marvel until after WW got announced to be connected?

They are not connected. What IS interesting is, for most of the last decade, Scarlet Johansen has been the highest paid actress on Earth. Creating a solo movie for her wasn't on the books because, at the time of her hiring, she wasn't that. Widow wasn't introduced as a major player. She became one over time. Consequently, they hadn't slotted a BW movie YEARS before. Then, when it seemed like a good idea, her salary was insanely high to headline a film. But Scarlet herself said she was getting too old for spandex so some folks got together and worked out a deal.

I don't know but I'd be willing to wager her actual salary for BW is reasonable but her profit share in the movie itself is higher.

Bottom line, this isn't a tennis match. Marvel is not a REACTIVE company under Fiege. It's driving. Warner is flailing to catch up. and so are the other studios. Remember universal's DARK UNIVERSE? Flailing.

[Ezyo1000]

I will say this. Marvel should want DC to do good and vice versa since every should be able to see their favorite characters shine and be treated properly. And it also causes the other company to try new things or improve on their process.

Healthy rivals drive improvement and success