Black Panther Appreciation 2020

[XPac]

That makes zero sense. The Djalia houses basically previous black Panthers and griots so again, why are these aliens memories somehow locked away in there. Especially when it's not even 616 Wakanda but another dimension altogether. Convoluted is convoluted.

The Djaila isn't just previous BP's and Griots ... it's the memory of all previous Wakanans.

Once they were conquered by the Wakandan Empire, they effectively became Wakandans. The Djalia apparently counts that.

[XPac]

Naw, he stood up and said, "I am your king do what you are told" and they all went, AYE WAKANDA SALUTE!!!

He never justified his actions. Never even pushed back. Just said his name is tchalla a bunch and then said he was king.

I get what Coates was going for, he was trying to show T'challa has (in coates eyes) finally embracing the role of King of Wakanda. But the way he went about it was just trash. He never countered the arguments against him. He never justified his actions (and he could!). It was poor story telling, once again.

Now, story wise, the natural progression from here is for T'challa to come back to Wakanda and BE IN CHARGE. No more second guessing himself, no more relying on chang/ramonda/storm/nunakia(rip)/shuri to tell him what to do. Based on this story, the KING OF WAKANDA returns and leads both Wakandas confidently to victory.

Let's see if that happens. I have my doubts.

He didn't justify his actions because he didn't need to.

The point wasn't to logically convince them what he was doing was the right thing ... the point was he was freaking king, and that means he does it his way regardless of what they think.

Him bothering to explain himself would make him look weaker, because it would imply he NEEDS to explain himself to them. He doesn't. He's right and he knows he's right, so he'll do what he needs to do regardless of what they think. And they'll do what they need to do because he's freaking king and it ultimately doesn't matter whether or not they agree with him.

[Maine Starfish]

Regarding BP love interests.

I have loved Tchalla for not being a philanderous playboy....which is way the Dora Milaje works well for someone like Tchalla because his sense of honor, respect and nobility is above reproach.

Unfortunately according to Coates, no black man in leading authority is capable of such charavter especially when being surrounded by ladies almost constantly without lusting after them or allowing rape camps to happen. :insert quadruple facepalm here:

Why is Tchalla responsible for the behavior and actions of other people? Obviously he is the king and ruler of Wakanda, but that doesn’t mean that he is responsible for every bad thing that happens. He’s responsible for minimizing things like murder, crime, and rape. That doesn’t mean these terrible things are never going to happen.

And it doesn’t mean that writers, like Coates, are forbidden from including these topics into their stories

[Ezyo1000]

It def happened. Now the how, I guess, it's just preference. I would hate a T'challa or King that sits justifying decisions esp ones everyone knows were right. That would make him look like a child having to explain himself. Plus I don't think the point was about those decisions at all truly bc most new readers wont know em anyway...it was more about the fact he made them but was conflicted by them bc of the burden of who he is and his mother helping him lift that burden by snapping him into reality. You cant plan for everything, you aren't afforded the luxury of being the moping king because that's not what we do.

Uh Because they are wrong? If someone is saying something wrong about you and accusing you of behaving a certain way or doing something a certain way (abd Thisnis big given Coates is taking all of this stuff out of context) that isn't true. Then a true kibf would stand and state the truth. Again see T'Chadwicks all of you were wrong speech, but modify it for T'Challa showing why he made those decisions. He should come to the conclusions on his own what being a King is and why he has earned the title despite what they are saying. But instead it's more moping garbage Which doesn't even make sense that he should be moping if everything was supposedly resolved in S1.

At this point T'Challa knows he can't plan for everything, this has been brought up multiple times from priest and Hudlin so this isn't some new unexplored concept, the whole bashing comes off as ridiculous and shows (in Coates eyes) his flaws but also shows his bias

[Ezyo1000]

The Djaila isn't just previous BP's and Griots ... it's the memory of all previous Wakanans.

Once they were conquered by the Wakandan Empire, they effectively became Wakandans. The Djalia apparently counts that.

No, it's previous BPs or griots. Everyone that shows up there was a BP or griot. Coates has shown that, and Nnedi did the same thing on the Shuri book. Otherwise you would see regular people in there. You don't. Never have in the entirety of this series from any of Coates and co. So you can't all of a sudden count out of dimension aliens memories who again, still wouldn't be counted there because they don't reside in that realm.

Convoluted is convoluted

[XPac]

No, it's previous BPs or griots. Everyone that shows up there was a BP or griot. Coates has shown that, and Nnedi did the same thing on the Shuri book. Otherwise you would see regular people in there. You don't. Never have in the entirety of this series from any of Coates and co. So you can't all of a sudden count out of dimension aliens memories who again, still wouldn't be counted there because they don't reside in that realm.

Convoluted is convoluted

It's not JUST BP's and Griots. It's the collective memory of all of Wakanda.

And who says that the Djalia can't or wouldn't count the members of the Wakandan empire as Wakandan? What exactly says it can't? Bast seemed to consider them Wakandan. T'Challa considers them Wakandans. Mother and Djalia seem to. I think the narrative has a relative consensus on the matter.

[Ezyo1000]

It's not JUST BP's and Griots. It's the collective memory of all of Wakanda.

And who says that the Djalia can't or wouldn't count the members of the Wakandan empire as Wakandan? What exactly says it can't? Bast seemed to consider them Wakandan. T'Challa considers them Wakandans. Mother and Djalia seem to. I think the narrative has a relative consensus on the matter.

Comics are a visual medium. Everything shown on panel points to BPs and griots who reside there. If they can Apparently hold all Wakandan memories then that should mean that they should have the memory of ALL Wakandans of all dimensions universe etc etc then because The claim is that these inter dimension aliens are Wakandan so it should apply to all right

[Cville]

I find it more interesting that the M'kran crystal being the solution to the memory problem seems to have been dropped. Also there is no explanation of when peoples memories were wiped. Where they Wakandan first? Because if they were concurred, wiped, and enslaved their original memories wouldn't be in the memory plain.They'd be in their own cultures equivalent.

[XPac]

Comics are a visual medium. Everything shown on panel points to BPs and griots who reside there. If they can Apparently hold all Wakandan memories then that should mean that they should have the memory of ALL Wakandans of all dimensions universe etc etc then because The claim is that these inter dimension aliens are Wakandan so it should apply to all right

In the least, we know it has the memories of the Wakandan Empire, which was created by Wakandans from the 616 earth. Whether or not every Wakanda in the entire multiverse is tied to a single Djalia was never mentioned.

As far as comics being a visual medium... I don't think it's necessarily accurate to assume that every single person we've seen in the Djalia is a Black Panther or a Griot. In the image below for example, we're seeing a bunch of guys with drums. No reason to necessarily assume they are all Black Panthers.

shuri 5.jpg

[Blind Wedjat]

Why is Tchalla responsible for the behavior and actions of other people? Obviously he is the king and ruler of Wakanda, but that doesn’t mean that he is responsible for every bad thing that happens. He’s responsible for minimizing things like murder, crime, and rape. That doesn’t mean these terrible things are never going to happen.

And it doesn’t mean that writers, like Coates, are forbidden from including these topics into their stories

It's funny you say this, when the man you're defending thinks otherwise.

If T'Challa is not responsible for everyone's actions, why does the first season spend all it's time with everyone blaming everything on T'Challa and laying it at his feet? If T'Challa is responsible for minimizing crimes, then why doesn't he do it or take any action when it's presented to him?

Oh right, because he doesn't want that responsibility, according to Coates. You're acknowledging that you're disagreeing with him. Funny how we've been saying this for almost 4 years.

And to you last point I think there's some naivety and idealism going on here, no offence. Obviously no one will and should censor Coates. But let's not act as like for a long time there hasn't been a shift in the kind of stories that are being told in comics. Decades ago it was written that Carol Danvers was a victim of multiple rapes and an unwanted pregnancy by her own "son" Marcus. Is that something that happens in real life, or even in a world as bizarre as the Marvel Universe? Sure, but nobody would dare write that today, especially a straight white man.

Unless it's written a minority group person or a woman, these kind of stories have died out for good reason, and they might work today if the point is to empower the titular character or characters in question (see Marvel/Netflix's Jessica Jones). But make no mistake, the only reason why Coates gets a pass for writing something as offensive and stereotypical as rape camps in an African Country is because he is a black man, so instead of it being seen as outdated and offensive, it's "woke".

[XPac]

It's funny you say this, when the man you're defending thinks otherwise.

If T'Challa is not responsible for everyone's actions, why does the first season spend all it's time with everyone blaming everything on T'Challa and laying it at his feet? If T'Challa is responsible for minimizing crimes, then why doesn't he do it or take any action when it's presented to him?

Oh right, because he doesn't want that responsibility, according to Coates. You're acknowledging that you're disagreeing with him. Funny how we've been saying this for almost 4 years.

And to you last point I think there's some naivety and idealism going on here, no offence. Obviously no one will and should censor Coates. But let's not act as like for a long time there hasn't been a shift in the kind of stories that are being told in comics. Decades ago it was written that Carol Danvers was a victim of multiple rapes and an unwanted pregnancy by her own "son" Marcus. Is that something that happens in real life, or even in a world as bizarre as the Marvel Universe? Sure, but nobody would dare write that today, especially a straight white man.

Unless it's written a minority group person or a woman, these kind of stories have died out for good reason, and they might work today if the point is to empower the titular character or characters in question (see Marvel/Netflix's Jessica Jones). But make no mistake, the only reason why Coates gets a pass for writing something as offensive and stereotypical as rape camps in an African Country is because he is a black man, so instead of it being seen as outdated and offensive, it's "woke".

There are certain things he's responsible for, and certain things he's not.

He's not responsible or accountable for every single crime that occurs in his nation, anymore than any other world leader is. But certain specific things which occured in AvX or Times Runs Out to SOME degree can arguably be placed on his shoulders. If he chooses to hide THanos and the Black Order in Wakanda without telling anyone for example, he does have some responsibility for losing control of that situation.

Ultimately it's a mixed bag. Some of the things he's criticized for are completely off base, some have a grain of truth, and some are actually valid. But if you're the guy in charge, I suppose it's not that unusual to get the lions share of the blame for things even if it's not entirely fair.

[Ezyo1000]

I find it more interesting that the M'kran crystal being the solution to the memory problem seems to have been dropped. Also there is no explanation of when peoples memories were wiped. Where they Wakandan first? Because if they were concurred, wiped, and enslaved their original memories wouldn't be in the memory plain.They'd be in their own cultures equivalent.

It's basically saying that for instance for Africans brought over to America that their salvation to rememebering where they came from is found in Christianity.

When that doesn't make sense, much like the Djalia holding the memories of.. you guessed it, non Wakandans

[Ezyo1000]

There are certain things he's responsible for, and certain things he's not.

He's not responsible or accountable for every single crime that occurs in his nation, anymore than any other world leader is. But certain specific things which occured in AvX or Times Runs Out to SOME degree can arguably be placed on his shoulders. If he chooses to hide THanos and the Black Order in Wakanda without telling anyone for example, he does have some responsibility for losing control of that situation.

Ultimately it's a mixed bag. Some of the things he's criticized for are completely off base, some have a grain of truth, and some are actually valid. But if you're the guy in charge, I suppose it's not that unusual to get the lions share of the blame for things even if it's not entirely fair.

The irony of this statement is that the things Coates brings up to "blame" T'Challa for, aren't even the things you mentioned. Coates didnt call out hiding Thanos in Wakanda, he calls out his "betrayal" to Steve and not blowing up the other earth. With the Steve thing not even a betrayal because he said he would do what needed to be done.

Also for AvX and tro T'Challa wasn't in charge. Shuri was so it doesn't make sense that T'Challa gets the Lions share of blame. And in AvX case none of it because he didn't tell Storm to join the xmen.

It's also funny how convenient it is that Shuri is "dead" in the start of Coates run to keep her blameless, then when she comes back? No one blames her for her faults. It's all T'Challas fault. Hell she is bashing him for how the rules what what happened under his rule.

At this point it doesn't even matter because for one Coates is almost gone, and two, he has "come full circle" so that must mean that Coates is supposed to actually let T'Challa be badass now and not moping

[XPac]

The irony of this statement is that the things Coates brings up to "blame" T'Challa for, aren't even the things you mentioned. Coates didnt call out hiding Thanos in Wakanda, he calls out his "betrayal" to Steve and not blowing up the other earth. With the Steve thing not even a betrayal because he said he would do what needed to be done.

Also for AvX and tro T'Challa wasn't in charge. Shuri was so it doesn't make sense that T'Challa gets the Lions share of blame. And in AvX case none of it because he didn't tell Storm to join the xmen.

It's also funny how convenient it is that Shuri is "dead" in the start of Coates run to keep her blameless, then when she comes back? No one blames her for her faults. It's all T'Challas fault. Hell she is bashing him for how the rules what what happened under his rule.

At this point it doesn't even matter because for one Coates is almost gone, and two, he has "come full circle" so that must mean that Coates is supposed to actually let T'Challa be badass now and not moping

T'Challa not blowing up the other earth was probably his greatest failure, so Coates obviously had to throw that one in there. Despite the previous BP's pleading T'Challa would refuse to compromise his principals in order to save the lives of 2 entire universes. The BP's actually had valid reason to be critical of him for that one, and since we never really had any closure on panel over that it's good that he added that here.

The betrayel of Steve in and of itself isn't a huge deal, but it highlights his later mistake with the Great Societys earth since T'challa ends up agreeing with Steve. He basically betrayed Steve for nothing, so those particular incidents dovetail well together.

AvX is an muddier issue, for the reasons you describe. Because Shuri was in charge the buck technically does stop with her. She should get the lion's share of the blame... and perhaps if she weren't dead she might have. But at the same time, I DO think you can credibly place some of the blame on T'Challa for that. Shuri at the time wasn't friends with the Avengers... she might not have risked Wakanda to protect them without T'Challa. So that's a case where there's certainly a bit of truth to the criticism... though it doesn't tell the whole story.

[XJlock]

The irony of this statement is that the things Coates brings up to "blame" T'Challa for, aren't even the things you mentioned. Coates didnt call out hiding Thanos in Wakanda, he calls out his "betrayal" to Steve and not blowing up the other earth. With the Steve thing not even a betrayal because he said he would do what needed to be done.

Also for AvX and tro T'Challa wasn't in charge. Shuri was so it doesn't make sense that T'Challa gets the Lions share of blame. And in AvX case none of it because he didn't tell Storm to join the xmen.

It's also funny how convenient it is that Shuri is "dead" in the start of Coates run to keep her blameless, then when she comes back? No one blames her for her faults. It's all T'Challas fault. Hell she is bashing him for how the rules what what happened under his rule.

At this point it doesn't even matter because for one Coates is almost gone, and two, he has "come full circle" so that must mean that Coates is supposed to actually let T'Challa be badass now and not moping

It is good to see other people acknowledging that Shuri too should receive part of the blame, alas it is not properly represented in the comics.