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  1. #691
    Incredible Member Vibranium Weave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redjack View Post
    You actually do need limits. There must be rules to all fantastical stories or they're just slop.

    Moreover, ideally, the antagonist should be MORE capable, powerful and prepared than the protagonist so there is actual struggle for the hero to overcome and win.

    Lazy writers avoid hard definitions because they remove the get-out-of-jail-free card of deus ex machina (IOW: the hero wins because s/he's the hero, not because somebody had to figure out a clever/satisfying victory.) which is why, invariably, they write weak stories. invariably. The win has to cost something or it's just wanking and every reader knows this whether they can put it into words or not.

    We got a lot of flack for having T'Challa "beat" Thor in the cartoon, for instance, for the obvious fanboy reasons. In any stand-up, fist-to-fist fight, Thor destroys BP in two seconds. Good thing BP planned ahead. He also knows he can't DEFEAT Thor without massive assistance. But he can beat him in the moment with proper planning.

    The suit needs limits. It needs to be broken and not up to the task from time to time or T'Challa is nothing but iron Man in a better outfit.

    John Constantine is the WEAKEST sorcerer ever and he KNOWS it. So, when he's in a battle, he plays against the person, not the power and, whenever possible, he cheats. This is clever and it's in character. Which is why it takes a clever writer to do him justice. The same is true of Reed Richards, Tony Stark and, yes, T'Challa.
    No one is saying the suit doesn't have limitations. If you look at the BP vs Iron Fist fight the suit was damaged because he was being hit with the force of a freight train. In the movie, a missile to the face knocked him down.

    My issue is have the suit explode if hit to much. That's a terrible design flaw and horrible armor. Armor that breaks apart is fine, as shown in the iron fist fight.

    Since the suit is made of vibranium and not adamantium, it shouldn't be indestructible. But it shouldn't blow up if hit too much.

    Earlier I mentioned about limits for characters like Hulk, Carol Danvers, Rogue not being defined. I feel they are still able to have good stories.

    The CM vs BP was not bad , except the powerlines stuff. She could have just overwhelmed him with her superior strength and speed, since he didn't prepare for her (because he didn't know iy was Carol).


    Redjack, on another note:

    What does a comic sale have to be to be cancelled kr go in a new direction? Is it 20k in sales, 15k or 10k? I'm just curious?

  2. #692
    Ultimate Member Ezyo1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Frankly I think the suit would be almost impossible to write well if it didn't have limits. I think part of good writing involves creating limits and rules which you work around.
    i think the original argument that started this was that it's fine for the habit to have limits, but the complaint was that it's stupid for the habit to physically explode on T'Challas person when it reaches the limit.

    Again, Coogler got it right in terms of it's strength, it's weakness and it's upper limits. For instance, it can absorb instant high impact energy very easily (a grenade at point blank range, an roided out armor plated rhino, a fall of 200+ feat, and high speed train) a second high powered energy strike of equal or greater value will overload the habit. The habit however, does not destroy itself but releases the energy is a Omni directional uncontrollable wave then it "resets" back to standard.

    As shown in the movie, the habit can take high concentrated kinetic force followed by smaller constant kinetic strikes (ie hit by the rhino, then being struck by border tribe without exploding, falling 200+ feat then taking strikes from Erik, getting hit by the hover train and then being struck by Erik, all of which it did not explode) that is how you develop and establish the capability and consistency in a comprehensive manner.

    Two high powered strikes back to back = uncontrollable release of Kinect energy followed by reset.

    One high powered strikes followed by smaller strikes = controllable release of Kinect energy followed by reset.

    It's that simple

  3. #693
    Astonishing Member Redjack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vibranium Weave View Post


    Redjack, on another note:

    What does a comic sale have to be to be cancelled kr go in a new direction? Is it 20k in sales, 15k or 10k? I'm just curious?
    Basically for a non-protected comic, once you drop below 10K you should worry, below 8k you should panic, below 6k you're done. That's only for Marvel or DC. 6 or 8k for an indie is healthy.

    "Protected" means someone in editorial or on the movie side needs the book to stay on the shelves for some reason other than money OR, like MS. Marvel and Moon Girl, you're crushing outside the direct market, say, at Scholastic.

    Side note for the room.

    Does it NEED to be Black Panther? if i started an indie comic with similar themes but not a copy (like INVINCIBLE or ASTRO CITY) would people buy that? Or are you just invested in T'Challa? This is a research question as i work out my next couple years of comics output.
    Last edited by Redjack; 01-25-2020 at 10:02 AM. Reason: typo

  4. #694
    Ultimate Member Ezyo1000's Avatar
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    yeah the whole beaten by electricity is kinda weak because it's been shown that he can absorb that stuff due tk the habit being insulated, ontop of electricity being another form of energy the new habit could absorb. It showed he hit her with kinetic energy and blasted her away, the better method should of been she just hit him too hard (the gun though was weird as I would expect him to use different tech since guns aren't things he uses) Daggers would of been more appropriate. That being said, I'm not convinced how the issue ended that T'Challa is actually knocked out.

  5. #695
    Incredible Member Vibranium Weave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redjack View Post
    Basically for a non-protected comic, once you drop below 10K you should worry, below 8k you should panic, below 6k you're done. That's only for Marvel or DC. 6 or 8k for an indie is healthy.

    "Protected" means someone in editorial or on the movie side needs the book to stay on the shelves fort some reason other than money OR, like MS. Marvel and Moon Girl, you're crushing outside the direct market, say, at Scholastic.
    Thank you for that, Redjack.

    I actually was just talking to one of the workers at my LCBS and he kinda said depends. Kinda based on the same factors you said.

    Basically, comics don't sell as high as they used to, so what seems low to us may not be as low, especially depending on the specific character AND writer. He then asked me what specific character I was talking about and I said BP. He then stated they he thinks Coates will be on it for awhile, because of his name in literary circles and academia. The thinking being is that the book may not be selling high and it may not make business sense to keep it going, but there may be a pay off for Coates being on the book in the long run.

    He did then mention this just his thoughts and he could be wrong or it changes somehow. But he felt Coates would probably have a continuing run.

    So....we are in dark time indeed my friends. Coates is probably here to stay.
    T'Chumpa, The Lack Panther is what we got ( For the main title anyway)
    Last edited by Vibranium Weave; 01-25-2020 at 10:20 AM.

  6. #696
    Ultimate Member Ezyo1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redjack View Post
    Basically for a non-protected comic, once you drop below 10K you should worry, below 8k you should panic, below 6k you're done. That's only for Marvel or DC. 6 or 8k for an indie is healthy.

    "Protected" means someone in editorial or on the movie side needs the book to stay on the shelves for some reason other than money OR, like MS. Marvel and Moon Girl, you're crushing outside the direct market, say, at Scholastic.

    Side note for the room.

    Does it NEED to be Black Panther? if i started an indie comic with similar themes but not a copy (like INVINCIBLE or ASTRO CITY) would people buy that? Or are you just invested in T'Challa? This is a research question as i work out my next couple years of comics output.
    I will support good stories, it doesn't HAVE to be BP but I will continue to want to get Black panther comic's. Just like your mosiac comic (highly underrated btw) I will buy your stuff it's it's fire. And given your track record, I have little doubt it would be. But black panther will always be the IP I hope you get a chance to write and work on again

  7. #697
    Invincible Member MindofShadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dboi654 View Post
    How are these guys still in business if their news is based on pillars of false information built on top of more false information?
    Quote Originally Posted by DigiCom View Post
    Advertising.
    Yep. Get the clicks but spamming it everywhere and fan boys are easily tricked into believing stuff.

    So they spam, get the clicks, advertise on their sites

    Only way to make them go away is to ignore them. Which will happen, a lot of these sites have been banned from other big forums (like Reddit) because it is so obvious it is being made up.



    Quote Originally Posted by Redjack View Post

    Side note for the room.

    Does it NEED to be Black Panther? if i started an indie comic with similar themes but not a copy (like INVINCIBLE or ASTRO CITY) would people buy that? Or are you just invested in T'Challa? This is a research question as i work out my next couple years of comics output.

    Personally, I am invested in T'challa. I don't have the time or energy anymore to explore other comics. I only follow very few characters now unless I hear someting through the grapevine that a book is good.
    Black Panther Discord Server: https://discord.gg/SA3hQerktm

    T'challa's Greatest Comic Book Feats: http://blackpanthermarvel.blogspot.c...her-feats.html

  8. #698
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vibranium Weave View Post
    No one is saying the suit doesn't have limitations. If you look at the BP vs Iron Fist fight the suit was damaged because he was being hit with the force of a freight train. In the movie, a missile to the face knocked him down.

    My issue is have the suit explode if hit to much. That's a terrible design flaw and horrible armor. Armor that breaks apart is fine, as shown in the iron fist fight.

    Since the suit is made of vibranium and not adamantium, it shouldn't be indestructible. But it shouldn't blow up if hit too much.

    Earlier I mentioned about limits for characters like Hulk, Carol Danvers, Rogue not being defined. I feel they are still able to have good stories.

    The CM vs BP was not bad , except the powerlines stuff. She could have just overwhelmed him with her superior strength and speed, since he didn't prepare for her (because he didn't know iy was Carol).


    Redjack, on another note:

    What does a comic sale have to be to be cancelled kr go in a new direction? Is it 20k in sales, 15k or 10k? I'm just curious?
    It's not so much a design flaw, so much as it's a potential problem with vibranium. It can explode if too much force is administered as it releases the energy it stores. Not saying it blows up 100% of the time it's hit a lot, but that is one of the potential drawbacks to a vibranium suit. The same ability to absorb energy can also be a potential detriment if it's inable to store it all.

    It should be noted though that when T'CHalla's suit overloaded, he himself wasn't harmed. The explosion damanged the suit and everyone around him... but the force apparently can be directe outward. So I think it's less of a design flaw and more a last minute hail mary offensive move. If the suit is going down, it's taking everyone else with it (minus the wearer who seemed relatively unharmed).

  9. #699
    Astonishing Member Redjack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MindofShadow View Post

    Personally, I am invested in T'challa. I don't have the time or energy anymore to explore other comics. I only follow very few characters now unless I hear someting through the grapevine that a book is good.
    i'm dying to show you guys an image but i don't want it to get around yet.

    hypothetically, if I could lock down CHRIS CROSS on art and obviously I'd write it, would that be enough to interest you?

    It could be a kickstarter, after all.

    But it's a big bite if there's no market. What do you guys think, not just for yourselves but if there's an appetite out there for something else in the same lane?

  10. #700
    Incredible Member Vibranium Weave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    It's not so much a design flaw, so much as it's a potential problem with vibranium. It can explode if too much force is administered as it releases the energy it stores. Not saying it blows up 100% of the time it's hit a lot, but that is one of the potential drawbacks to a vibranium suit. The same ability to absorb energy can also be a potential detriment if it's inable to store it all.

    It should be noted though that when T'CHalla's suit overloaded, he himself wasn't harmed. The explosion damanged the suit and everyone around him... but the force apparently can be directe outward. So I think it's less of a design flaw and more a last minute hail mary offensive move. If the suit is going down, it's taking everyone else with it (minus the wearer who seemed relatively unharmed).

    I noticed you still haven't responded to the message regarding the power limits of these people in the quote below:

    Earlier I mentioned about limits for characters like Hulk, Carol Danvers, Rogue not being defined. I feel they are still able to have good stories
    Also, Roy Thomas had a vibranium shield protect the whole city of New York from an explosion by Ultron when he went critical mass in an Avengers story, but Coates has T'Challa's suit blow up from some bullets. Also, vibranium has withstood hits from the Hulk without exploding, but bullets all of a sudden make it explode. Nothing's wrong with vibranium, just the writer of that story, i.e. Coates.

    And yes it's a design flaw, because that is a new function of the suit, not an original inherent property of it. Nuff Said LoL

  11. #701
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    i think the original argument that started this was that it's fine for the habit to have limits, but the complaint was that it's stupid for the habit to physically explode on T'Challas person when it reaches the limit.

    Again, Coogler got it right in terms of it's strength, it's weakness and it's upper limits. For instance, it can absorb instant high impact energy very easily (a grenade at point blank range, an roided out armor plated rhino, a fall of 200+ feat, and high speed train) a second high powered energy strike of equal or greater value will overload the habit. The habit however, does not destroy itself but releases the energy is a Omni directional uncontrollable wave then it "resets" back to standard.

    As shown in the movie, the habit can take high concentrated kinetic force followed by smaller constant kinetic strikes (ie hit by the rhino, then being struck by border tribe without exploding, falling 200+ feat then taking strikes from Erik, getting hit by the hover train and then being struck by Erik, all of which it did not explode) that is how you develop and establish the capability and consistency in a comprehensive manner.

    Two high powered strikes back to back = uncontrollable release of Kinect energy followed by reset.

    One high powered strikes followed by smaller strikes = controllable release of Kinect energy followed by reset.

    It's that simple
    I wouldn't call it stupid so much as I'd say it's just playing by the rules. Again, vibranium can explode if it's overloaded with energy. When it contains too much it releases it. Thus, in theory a suit made from vibranium under less than ideal circumstances can explode too.

    But the fact that the suit is able to take out the attacked before it fails I think is actually cooler than if it just stops working. The suit went down but it took down the attackers with it, while leaving T'Challa relatively unscathed. To me that wasn't all that bad a showing.

  12. #702
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vibranium Weave View Post
    I noticed you still haven't responded to the message regarding the power limits of these people in the quote below:



    Also, Roy Thomas had a vibranium shield protect the whole city of New York from an explosion by Ultron when he went critical mass in an Avengers story, but Coates has T'Challa's suit blow up from some bullets. Also, vibranium has withstood hits from the Hulk without exploding, but bullets all of a sudden make it explode. Nothing's wrong with vibranium, just the writer of that story, i.e. Coates.

    And yes it's a design flaw, because that is a new function of the suit, not an original inherent property of it. Nuff Said LoL
    I believe I did respond to the idea of characters not having limits... I think a lot of the time it's lazy. Which isn't to say you can't tell a good story. It's possible. But if there are no limits or rules, then thing begin to lose meaning. Even in fiction I think we need rules so things can make sense within the confines of the narrative.

    Also it's not like Hulk walks around with limitless strength 24/7. He potentially has no upper limit... potentially. But that's not the same thing as having limitless strength, which makes him workable as a character. But there are times Hulks strength essentially is written as a plot device... and I'm not sure that's a good thing.

  13. #703
    Old-School Otaku DigiCom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redjack View Post
    Does it NEED to be Black Panther? if i started an indie comic with similar themes but not a copy (like INVINCIBLE or ASTRO CITY) would people buy that? Or are you just invested in T'Challa? This is a research question as i work out my next couple years of comics output.
    Well, all I can say is that in 1998, I wasn't a Black Panther fan. I became a fan because of the characterization of and the concepts behind this new take on T'Challa.

    Indeed, the older I get, the more interested I become in strong characters with different points of view (which is why, unlike many of my brethren here, I never talk about Feats™). So if the new book has a unique character with an interesting setting... I'll give it a shot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Redjack View Post
    i'm dying to show you guys an image but i don't want it to get around yet.

    hypothetically, if I could lock down CHRIS CROSS on art and obviously I'd write it, would that be enough to interest you?

    It could be a kickstarter, after all.

    But it's a big bite if there's no market. What do you guys think, not just for yourselves but if there's an appetite out there for something else in the same lane?
    The floppies market is insanely tough to get into and has several challenges. If I were you, I'd look into OGN's instead.

  14. #704
    Spectacular Member Gessela's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redjack View Post
    i'm dying to show you guys an image but i don't want it to get around yet.

    hypothetically, if I could lock down CHRIS CROSS on art and obviously I'd write it, would that be enough to interest you?

    It could be a kickstarter, after all.

    But it's a big bite if there's no market. What do you guys think, not just for yourselves but if there's an appetite out there for something else in the same lane?
    I’m getting little to no traction on my end, but you have a proven track record in your favor.

    At any rate I’ll support most quality sci-fi action based comics, especially if their Afro influenced and easily accessible.

  15. #705
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redjack View Post
    i'm dying to show you guys an image but i don't want it to get around yet.

    hypothetically, if I could lock down CHRIS CROSS on art and obviously I'd write it, would that be enough to interest you?

    It could be a kickstarter, after all.

    But it's a big bite if there's no market. What do you guys think, not just for yourselves but if there's an appetite out there for something else in the same lane?
    Though I can honestly say I'd at least check it out, I am somewhat skeptical it can survive on the shelves of a comic shop.

    That said, you never know what ends up getting picked up. Even if you don't do well on the monthly sales, because of the boom in comic book movies I do think studios and networks are on the look out for potential IP's. There is a market out there with a legitimate appetite something like this ... it's just not necessarily going to show up in a comic book shop to buy floppies. But it is out there. Tapping into it is the hard part.

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