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  1. #2311
    The Professional Marvell2100's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dkrook View Post
    What Bro Ezyo is saying I believe is that no one king/leader is perfect in their every move. What we got from Coates was straight up misrepresentation and incoherent babble when all the previous historical narrative written on the characterization of T'challa is brought into consideration it shows the issue is far beyond is he a good leader, he was. He bred to be, raised to be, and even chosen by his god to be. Naw fam Coates just was doing garbage writing and character shading. Basic writer class will tell that your protagonist should never move through their entire arc with external circumstances a thing upon them without them ever showing power to impact or progress their own narrative. Showing the protagonist having some true agency.
    Pretty much this post here.

  2. #2312
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    What you guys seem to be ignoring is that, again, T'Challa has been King for a long time. It's not like he has never dealt with a coup before. Plus, knowing what we know about T'Challa, and how he cares about humanity, why would he EVER deal with despots? Plus continuity has shown all throughout his publication that he seeks the advice of his council and there there is a council on place that can run the day to day when he is away, so why would he go to despots, outsiders who don't know anything about Wakanda and people T'Challa would clearly see as evil men, for advice? what the frak do you think they would say? "Oh yeah just throw a banquet for the people and tell them everything thing will be sunshine and rainbows"

    The whole despot thing was completely out of character, and given what Coates did with it. Was solely meant to tarnish T'Challa and make him look bad, simply because Coates story demanded to shade throw as much as possible. And yeah Coates tries to say it's hodaris idea, but a couple things. 1 T'Challa straight up would of said no. Wakanda has never Asked for help from outsiders and you think the first aid they will reach out for will be to despots for stopping a rebellion? Come-on.

    Second, Coates turns around and has T'Challa show the truth about what happened.. and nothing changes, he still looks bad, changamire blame him for that still, and T'Challa just writes it off like "lol oops my bad".

    Again Coates story would work for a new character with no history who's whole deal is that he was thrust into kingship, after his family members who proceeded him and had claim to the thrown were gone and he never had aspirations, or bothered, to learn how to rule, and his country was one that barely held itself together under a monarch. That's how out of touch with BP and Wakanda Coates is.

    Simply put, Coates is pessimistic and doesn't like what Wakanda stands for and is supposed to represent and how took that view and showed an extremely contrived story into the BP mythos
    T'Challa has dealt with coups before ... but this scenario was different, in that the problem couldn't simply be resolved by punching out the people rising against him. There was clearly a desire among the people for democrasy, and that isn't going to go away simply by beating the crap out of Tetu and Zenzi. That last part T'Challa can obviously handle on his own.

    Of course, ultimately T'Challa's sollution was pretty simple... give the people what they want. But Hodari I think respresented a certain portion of Wakanda that was resistant to change. T'Challa entertained that notion but ultimately rejected it in favor of supporting what the people wanted. T'Challa still got to be king, so I doubt he honestly cared if other people in government were elected by the people or not.

  3. #2313
    Extraordinary Member Ezyo1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dkrook View Post
    What Bro Ezyo is saying I believe is that no one king/leader is perfect in their every move. What we got from Coates was straight up misrepresentation and incoherent babble when all the previous historical narrative written on the characterization of T'challa is brought into consideration it shows the issue is far beyond is he a good leader, he was. He bred to be, raised to be, and even chosen by his god to be. Naw fam Coates just was doing garbage writing and character shading. Basic writer class will tell that your protagonist should never move through their entire arc with external circumstances a thing upon them without them ever showing power to impact or progress their own narrative. Showing the protagonist having some true agency.
    Pretty much this. My whole point is summed up here:

    Again Coates story would work for a new character with no history who's whole deal is that he was thrust into kingship, after his family members who proceeded him and had claim to the thrown were gone and he never had aspirations, or bothered, to learn how to rule, and his country was one that barely held itself together under a monarch.
    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    T'Challa has dealt with coups before ... but this scenario was different, in that the problem couldn't simply be resolved by punching out the people rising against him. There was clearly a desire among the people for democrasy, and that isn't going to go away simply by beating the crap out of Tetu and Zenzi. That last part T'Challa can obviously handle on his own.

    Of course, ultimately T'Challa's sollution was pretty simple... give the people what they want. But Hodari I think respresented a certain portion of Wakanda that was resistant to change. T'Challa entertained that notion but ultimately rejected it in favor of supporting what the people wanted. T'Challa still got to be king, so I doubt he honestly cared if other people in government were elected by the people or not.
    Actually thats not true at all. He has dealt with it before. In Priest run when the jabari Wanted to have freedom tondo their own thing when T'Challa was suffering from the aneurysm.

    He could punch out the people because they weren't Wakandan.

    And your but about hodari makes zero sense because if the claim was "a certain portion resistant to change" then why would they ask for aid from outsiders? Something they have never done, and them being despots, who they definitely would consider themselves superior to. Your idea easily collapses under the tiniest scrutiny. How it was handled, what was said and done with the whole little deal with it, was simply to throw shade, nothing more.

  4. #2314
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    Pretty much this. My whole point is summed up here:





    Actually thats not true at all. He has dealt with it before. In Priest run when the jabari Wanted to have freedom tondo their own thing when T'Challa was suffering from the aneurysm.

    He could punch out the people because they weren't Wakandan.

    And your but about hodari makes zero sense because if the claim was "a certain portion resistant to change" then why would they ask for aid from outsiders? Something they have never done, and them being despots, who they definitely would consider themselves superior to. Your idea easily collapses under the tiniest scrutiny. How it was handled, what was said and done with the whole little deal with it, was simply to throw shade, nothing more.
    They would ask for aide from people who deal with this sort of thing. Dictators and despots have experience supressing demoncray and the will of the people. It's sort of their thing. And the point of it wasn't to show shade...it was to differentiate him from other dictators despite the fact that he was a monarch. It was the opposite of shade. That's why we ultimately show him granting his people the right to vote and have a voice unlike other rulers who deny people that basic right. It shows that he's ultimately a ruler who cares enough to give the people what they wanted... which in this instance was pretty easy to do since he still got to keep his job regardless.

  5. #2315
    Extraordinary Member Ezyo1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    They would ask for aide from people who deal with this sort of thing. Dictators and despots have experience supressing demoncray and the will of the people. It's sort of their thing. And the point of it wasn't to show shade...it was to differentiate him from other dictators despite the fact that he was a monarch. It was the opposite of shade. That's why we ultimately show him granting his people the right to vote and have a voice unlike other rulers who deny people that basic right. It shows that he's ultimately a ruler who cares enough to give the people what they wanted... which in this instance was pretty easy to do since he still got to keep his job regardless.
    No because it got turned against him and he took
    shade from it and even when he "proved"his innocence it was still used against him.

    And tell me. Why would Wakanda turn to dictators for help? A nation who criticized the rest of the world for what they have done to Africa and themselves. Why would they do the same thing? Why would Wakanda need help for something they have dealt with before? Because tchalla has said he embodies the will of the people so why would he try and suppress it? Forward thinking T'Challa would wanted to open Wakanda to the world because he believed Wakanda could help the world be a a better place? You see the problem here? Coates was not trying to show how great tchalla was. The entire time he's been on the book he has been trying to show why a monarch sucks and how Wakanda isn't as great as we think. Again under the tiniest scrutiny that argument falls apart

  6. #2316
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    No because it got turned against him and he took
    shade from it and even when he "proved"his innocence it was still used against him.

    And tell me. Why would Wakanda turn to dictators for help? A nation who criticized the rest of the world for what they have done to Africa and themselves. Why would they do the same thing? Why would Wakanda need help for something they have dealt with before? Because tchalla has said he embodies the will of the people so why would he try and suppress it? Forward thinking T'Challa would wanted to open Wakanda to the world because he believed Wakanda could help the world be a a better place? You see the problem here? Coates was not trying to show how great tchalla was. The entire time he's been on the book he has been trying to show why a monarch sucks and how Wakanda isn't as great as we think. Again under the tiniest scrutiny that argument falls apart
    Sure the bad guys turned it against him... but that's not shade on him. Bad guys do bad things. He didn't actually do anything wrong there., and in the end ultimately does the right thing by giving the Wakandan people what they want.

    As for why a Wakandan might suggest advice on quelling democracy from dicators and despots? Because dictators and despots quel demoncray. It's obviously not help T'Challa needed as he was going to give it to the Wakandan people anyways... but the point of it all was to show there was some resistance to chance from government and T'Challa allowed that resistance to get a bit of a voice, before ultimately shutting it down.

  7. #2317
    Extraordinary Member Ezyo1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Sure the bad guys turned it against him... but that's not shade on him. Bad guys do bad things. He didn't actually do anything wrong there., and in the end ultimately does the right thing by giving the Wakandan people what they want.

    As for why a Wakandan might suggest advice on quelling democracy from dicators and despots? Because dictators and despots quel demoncray. It's obviously not help T'Challa needed as he was going to give it to the Wakandan people anyways... but the point of it all was to show there was some resistance to chance from government and T'Challa allowed that resistance to get a bit of a voice, before ultimately shutting it down.
    changa thew it back in his face. It WAS shade throwing. Everyone Saw that, BP fans, even casuals went WTF because it was so obviously a set up and ooc and stupid.

    So you think again. T'Challa dealt with that before already. But you already know this. This argument your providing is weak at best and is an assumption on your part. None of tue stuff your saying was confirmed on panel. In fact, what we see on panel tells something different entirely.

  8. #2318
    Mighty Member Blind Wedjat's Avatar
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    "Bad guys do bad things" is exactly the reasons why T'Challa shouldn't have been consulting with despots or should have seen them turning on him. Being an imperfect person doesn't mean you suddenly have to behave inexperienced.

    It's like Captain America having working together with Red Skull for a supposed greater good (something Steve would probably never do) and then being surprised that Red Skull turned against him in the end.

    Fictional characters are meant to be consistent, especially if they're long running.

  9. #2319
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blind Wedjat View Post
    "Bad guys do bad things" is exactly the reasons why T'Challa shouldn't have been consulting with despots or should have seen them turning on him. Being an imperfect person doesn't mean you suddenly have to behave inexperienced.

    It's like Captain America having working together with Red Skull for a supposed greater good (something Steve would probably never do) and then being surprised that Red Skull turned against him in the end.

    Fictional characters are meant to be consistent, especially if they're long running.
    In T'Challa's case he has a history of consulting with Namor and Dr. Doom back in the day. Course, given how things ended up with both Doom and Namor MAYBE he regrets that in hindsight.

    Steve actually has worked with Red Skull though. It's rare, but you do sometimes end up in an "enemy of your enemy is your friend" situation.

  10. #2320
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    In T'Challa's case he has a history of consulting with Namor and Dr. Doom back in the day. Course, given how things ended up with both Doom and Namor MAYBE he regrets that in hindsight.

    Steve actually has worked with Red Skull though. It's rare, but you do sometimes end up in an "enemy of your enemy is your friend" situation.
    Namor and Doom were world leaders, and T'Challa only consulted them about emergencies.

    He didn't say, ring up Kingpin and ask his advise about an upcoming election

  11. #2321
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    Guys, guys... just give it up.

    No matter what you say, Coates' partisans will either find SOME excuse for why what he wrote is "just like Priest/Hudlin!", or some off-panel explanation that justifies it.

    Just a few more months, and it will be over.

  12. #2322
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    Namor and Doom were world leaders, and T'Challa only consulted them about emergencies.

    He didn't say, ring up Kingpin and ask his advise about an upcoming election
    THe dictators T'Challa was meeting with presumably were world leaders do. To be a dictator you have to be dictating over something, I would imagine.

    They're just not the dictators T'Challa usualy consults with since he's not on speaking terms with Namor and Doom in recent years. Not that Namor and Doom are necessarily the best people to talk to given both have been overthrown a bunch of times. So the HZ guy could only get third stringers ... and ultimately that was crappy advice. But considering the source maybe it wasn't surprising. The source was an HZ, and they were T'Chaka's secret police back in the day. THey probably did the same stuff dictators do, so maybe this wasn't that surprsiing a suggestion given the source.

    But yeah... it was ultimately useless since T'Challa was just going to give the people what they wanted anyways.

  13. #2323
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    Quote Originally Posted by DigiCom View Post
    Guys, guys... just give it up.

    No matter what you say, Coates' partisans will either find SOME excuse for why what he wrote is "just like Priest/Hudlin!", or some off-panel explanation that justifies it.

    Just a few more months, and it will be over.
    Amen. Move On dot com.

  14. #2324
    Extraordinary Member Ezyo1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DigiCom View Post
    Guys, guys... just give it up.

    No matter what you say, Coates' partisans will either find SOME excuse for why what he wrote is "just like Priest/Hudlin!", or some off-panel explanation that justifies it.

    Just a few more months, and it will be over.
    Your quite right. In fact, it's actually quite funny that they will weave up some Fantastical explanation for why T'Coates does something idiotic because Coates himself sure as hell doesn't know. So he leaves it to other's to attempt to fill in the holes.

  15. #2325
    The King Fears NO ONE! Triniking1234's Avatar
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    Ezyo1000, have you ever had the chance to talk to Coates about any of those gripes?
    "Cable was right!"

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