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  1. #9676
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redjack View Post
    It's me T'Challa! It was me all along, T'Challa!

  2. #9677
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    Quote Originally Posted by MindofShadow View Post
    Zenzi makes no sense overall

    She is a terrible villain.

    She has nothing going for her except she i sa black woman villain, which is really really really rare.

    Her backstory makes no sense, her powerset keeps changing depending on the plot, her motivations make no sense.

    She is terrible. I don't get what people see in her. She was fine initially because she was a blank slate with empath-like powers. Then they kept writing about her nad ruined it lol

    Tetu still has potential beause he has a neat design and his powerset of "plant sorcerer" is new-ish. Him being some sort of Wakandan anarchist like say... Zaheer from Avatar would make sense. He doesn't WANT the throne... he doesn't want there ot be a throne period. He is such a blank slate that he has potential there. He just needs an actual comic book dude to write him so he isn't doing 10 minute dances with poetry while the hero stares at him just for some tree roots lol.

    Zenzi, on the other hand, is crap bc they did try flesher her out a touch and it just became a mess.
    Tetu would only work for me if they pushed his power to Swamp thing levels.....given the recent "attack of the alien plant people invasion" event, wtf wasn't Tetu involved?

    I agree on Zenzi, personally I would make her telepathic not just empathic.....Wakandan anti-telepatic tech inbound.

  3. #9678
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    I think Tetu's powers make sense. He's basically an anarchist (with communist undertones but I could be reading into that). He believes in the elimination of all hierarchies. Kings and subjects, gods and worshippers. Those "binaries" as he described them, are meaningless and detrimental to a truly enlightened society, because they're exploitative of the "little people" and reject the natural state of mankind. His ability to manipulate plants and nature reflects him drawing on powers that are older than those binaries and rival the technocratic, industrial talents of societies ruled by them. It makes sense thematically for a dude who wants to fundamentally restructure a cyberpunk kingdom to use nature magic.

    Where he falls apart for me is how 1) this ideology wasn't clearly communicated because it was hidden behind layers of poetic dialogue and 2) he's not engaging, which ties back to point 1. Tetu drones on and on about his ideas without any real sense of clarity for the audience. I can only kinda get his criticisms because I actually liked Coates' run at first and read between the lines with a lot of political prose. Tetu has interesting, if a bit derivative, beliefs but he doesn't explain them with any charisma. He hardly comes off as the top-tier speaker that Coates tried to portray him as.

    And it's made worse by how his powers weren't impressive at all. In his big confrontation at the gates of the Golden City all it took was D-list Akili running up on him to take him down lol. We also lack much context for him as an actual character, Tetu feels like a mouthpiece for Coates' criticisms of the BP mythos, rather than a fleshed out entity. Which is in stark contrast to the development we got for the Midnight Angels and even Zenzi. But I think we all know why that is.

  4. #9679
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redjack View Post
    Rin Tohsaka fighting Black Panther never gets old .

  5. #9680
    Extraordinary Member Mike_Murdock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingNomarch View Post
    Zenzi makes very little sense to me. What exactly is her beef with T'Challa? She wants to help people and stop oppression but done nothing about it for her own country that has a revolving door of despots in charge. Speaking of which, what has Niganda been up to? The last time it was mentioned was in Rise. Then she teams up with Nazis, who should be the people she should be fighting against. Then she helps revive Killmonger, gives him a symbiote infused with God power, and a powerful intergalactic army from the future all so she could get her revenge on Killmonger who was already dead. It doesn't make any sense to me and I doubt Coates has an explanation to justify this.

    Tetu has potential to be a great villain but he's going to need a better writer first.
    I agree about her recent actions. I think it's quite realistic to have misplaced blame, but to cycle around to ally with the reason for your blame doesn't make a ton of sense to me either. But I think it can be interesting to have someone who blames Wakanda for not doing enough to help their country. It doesn't even have to be a fair criticism to be a realistic one.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindofShadow View Post
    Zenzi makes no sense overall

    She is a terrible villain.

    She has nothing going for her except she i sa black woman villain, which is really really really rare.

    Her backstory makes no sense, her powerset keeps changing depending on the plot, her motivations make no sense.
    Regarding her power set, here is my take:

    I get the impression that it's essentially mind control but it doesn't work unless there's at least some emotional hook to grab onto. Even the slightest possible doubt can be amplified to the point that it overcomes everything else, but it has to be there. I think that's consistent with all her appearances, but I'm not positive.
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  6. #9681
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    We know that the Nigandans have always had an enmity with Wakanda because of the theft of Alkama Fields centuries ago. That permanently impoverished their country, which has been in a constant cycle of violence and corruption that Wakanda up until very recently ignored.

    Then N'Jadaka, a Wakandan himself abandoned by the kingdom, brutally takes over and cloaks himself like a liberator for their people. But he's just like every other despot and subjects Zenzi to inhumane experiments. After saving herself, she travels to Wakanda, nearly gets raped, and is convinced to follow Tetu's belief in liberation and the destruction of kings. I think she makes sense, her powers are just underwhelming and she's basically abandoned her beliefs to serve the current plot.

  7. #9682
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    The only BP villain I think should be outright killed off and forgotten are the Midnight Angels as they did by far the most damage to the mythos and aren't even villains anymore. We have Okoye who's part of a billion dollar movie and she's the only Dora worth giving any dialogue to. The others really should just be red shirts and exposition devices, if that. The MA should die heroically protecting Wakanda from whatever the threat of the next relaunch is. The other enemies Coates introduced are salvageable and have adaptation potential but the MA are a blight that have to be removed. All they do is offer LGBT+ representation and bloat to the supporting cast, they're not worth keeping around.

  8. #9683
    Ultimate Life Form BlackClaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chief12d View Post
    The only BP villain I think should be outright killed off and forgotten are the Midnight Angels as they did by far the most damage to the mythos and aren't even villains anymore. We have Okoye who's part of a billion dollar movie and she's the only Dora worth giving any dialogue to. The others really should just be red shirts and exposition devices, if that. The MA should die heroically protecting Wakanda from whatever the threat of the next relaunch is. The other enemies Coates introduced are salvageable and have adaptation potential but the MA are a blight that have to be removed. All they do is offer LGBT+ representation and bloat to the supporting cast, they're not worth keeping around.
    The only problem with that is that the deaths of LGBT+ characters will inevitably get negative media attention even from those who have never picked up a Black Panther comic before in their lives. I would just simply just have them go into limbo like Okoye did until the film came out.
    T'Challa
    A.K.A. The Black Panther
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  9. #9684
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackClaw View Post
    The only problem with that is that the deaths of LGBT+ characters will inevitably get negative media attention even from those who have never picked up a Black Panther comic before in their lives. I would just simply just have them go into limbo like Okoye did until the film came out.
    I guess, and I know there is a trope or something like that of LGBT+ characters dying after affirming their love for each other or something. It won't go over well on Twitter. Then just say they formed their own Midnight Council and control a handful of rogue Dora in the Jabari-lands and leave it at that. They get their happy ending, a little village they can run how they please (a mute zone), and they can be ignored and fade into obscurity.

  10. #9685
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blind Wedjat View Post
    I actually think why Tetu and Zenzi suck is because their powers have almost nothing to do with their motivations. If Tetu is supposed to be an anarchist, why give him nature powers? That doesn't fit him at all. Zaheer worked because he was supposed to who was an extremist and wasn't meant to have air bending powers. Him being the total opposite of an Air Nomad is why his character worked. Tetu's powers are just a random thought because someone couldn't think of anything better.

    Same thing with Zenzi. How does being an empath/telepath/mind control person work with her motivations? They could actually work better if someone took the time to write her character properly.

    Here's my quick thought of what I might done: give both of them the same empath related power but they work differently. Zenzi can understand and experience the emotions of others, but can't change them. Tetu can't understand or experience the emotions of others, but can change them. Make their relationship symbiotic but suggest they may be manipulation or gaslighting being done on Tetu's part. Flesh out how their powers work together and how they were able to become terrorists in this way.
    I would go a different route and make them walking contradictions. For instance, Zenzi wants to free people of oppression, however, her power is destructive and enslaves the mind through emotional manipulation. Tetu wants to tear down society and return people back to basics and "protect" nature, however his power is very destructive to the natural order of nature and manipulates and kills nature as bad or worse then advancements in society (for instance Coates had him create rain in issue 3, however to do that he forcibly took rain from a place that rarely gets any rain to do so, making said place even worse off) pollutes. At this point that is the only thing I can think off to make them unique and makes sense of their powers as opposed to their beliefs. Oh and I would completely scrap Zenzis backstory because it's complete ass and shows what lazy/ shit writing can do to potential Villains.

  11. #9686
    Extraordinary Member Ezyo1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike_Murdock View Post
    I agree about her recent actions. I think it's quite realistic to have misplaced blame, but to cycle around to ally with the reason for your blame doesn't make a ton of sense to me either. But I think it can be interesting to have someone who blames Wakanda for not doing enough to help their country. It doesn't even have to be a fair criticism to be a realistic one.



    Regarding her power set, here is my take:

    I get the impression that it's essentially mind control but it doesn't work unless there's at least some emotional hook to grab onto. Even the slightest possible doubt can be amplified to the point that it overcomes everything else, but it has to be there. I think that's consistent with all her appearances, but I'm not positive.
    I would agree with you, but that lone of thinking falls apart when we look at the final fight at the Golden city when her revealer powers (in her own words) somehow turned regular people into hulked out monsters Which was never shown before that or ever Again after. Completely random and doesn't fit her powerset at all hell her power was beaten by Z list changamire m as was Tetu beaten by Z list Akili.

  12. #9687
    Extraordinary Member Ezyo1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chief12d View Post
    We know that the Nigandans have always had an enmity with Wakanda because of the theft of Alkama Fields centuries ago. That permanently impoverished their country, which has been in a constant cycle of violence and corruption that Wakanda up until very recently ignored.

    Then N'Jadaka, a Wakandan himself abandoned by the kingdom, brutally takes over and cloaks himself like a liberator for their people. But he's just like every other despot and subjects Zenzi to inhumane experiments. After saving herself, she travels to Wakanda, nearly gets raped, and is convinced to follow Tetu's belief in liberation and the destruction of kings. I think she makes sense, her powers are just underwhelming and she's basically abandoned her beliefs to serve the current plot.
    If there's one thing that has infinitely pissed me off about Coates era and everyone associated with him, is their constant obsession with having Wakandans trying (or succeeding though not on panel thank Bast) to Rape people. With have 4 mentions/ attempts of it over the last 4 years. Seriously there have been more mentions and attempts of rape in the last 4 years, then the entirety of BPs publication history. Wtf is that?

  13. #9688
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    If there's one thing that has infinitely pissed me off about Coates era and everyone associated with him, is their constant obsession with having Wakandans trying (or succeeding though not on panel thank Bast) to Rape people. With have 4 mentions/ attempts of it over the last 4 years. Seriously there have been more mentions and attempts of rape in the last 4 years, then the entirety of BPs publication history. Wtf is that?
    The ultimate expression of male domination over women is rape. Coates wanted to communicate in the strongest possible terms that Wakanda has deep rooted sexism issues and the most potent way to do that is through sexual violence. And it makes his condemnation of T'Challa all the more powerful, because it's not Wakandan men just ignoring or disrespecting women on a cultural level, it's them physically dehumanizing the women of Wakanda right under the king's nose. It's a really aggressive way of pushing the narrative that T'Challa is an aloof, incompetent king, which is the core message of this run whether Coates intended it or not.

  14. #9689
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    Quote Originally Posted by chief12d View Post
    The only BP villain I think should be outright killed off and forgotten are the Midnight Angels as they did by far the most damage to the mythos and aren't even villains anymore. We have Okoye who's part of a billion dollar movie and she's the only Dora worth giving any dialogue to. The others really should just be red shirts and exposition devices, if that. The MA should die heroically protecting Wakanda from whatever the threat of the next relaunch is. The other enemies Coates introduced are salvageable and have adaptation potential but the MA are a blight that have to be removed. All they do is offer LGBT+ representation and bloat to the supporting cast, they're not worth keeping around.
    Villains? They were the heroines of that story. T'Challa was the villain.

  15. #9690
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackClaw View Post
    The only problem with that is that the deaths of LGBT+ characters will inevitably get negative media attention even from those who have never picked up a Black Panther comic before in their lives. I would just simply just have them go into limbo like Okoye did until the film came out.
    Your diplomatic solution is suggestion is reasonable. However I don't think killing them off will be all that big of a deal. Where are all these politically correct BP fans that bemoaning the lost of their savior? Naw, I think the next writer could pretty much wholesale cut everything Coates did and there wouldn't be too much resistance realistically you see a spicy article from the root or the grio, and thats it.

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