Black Panther Appreciation 2020

[Blind Wedjat]

The problem is not what T'Challa has. It is what writers choose to do with what he has.

If we're going to argue about the cool factor, obviously T'Challa would be at his coolest if he had no enhancements and high tech gear or armour, and could still wreck an alien werewolf and put Silver Surfer in a chokehold. Essentially, Batman with the highest amounts of PIS and plot armour.

But we don't want that, and T'Challa is not that. He's the warrior king of the most technologically advanced nation on Earth, chosen by a goddess. That fact isn't going away soon, so it's best to write everything about T'Challa with this in mind.

I don't care if a writer decides T'Challa will only have the bare minimum of a suit or Iron Man armour, or Batman level gadgets, or Reed Richards level intelligence. None of this will matter if nothing interesting or worth a damn is done with it.

The simplicity of Priest's gear set isn't why it worked. It was the versatility and the feats on display that made it work. We see the insane variety of tasks the energy daggers, kimoyo card and dampening soles can pull off. We see just how much damage the vibranium suit can take. Can you even compare any of that to Coates' kinetic energy suit and kimoyo beads?

It's even all the more frustrating when you look at the fact that the kinetic energy suit is a logical upgrade that keeps things fresh and the beads are immediately versatile. Maybe those who've been reading can tell me otherwise, but I never got the sense that he did anything particularly creative with them at all.

And that's where the problem lies: T'Challa is bogged down by writers that put him in mundane situations and uncreatively resolve these situations with technology, which makes it seem as if he's relying too much on technology.

I've said so many times that tactician T'Challa will always be superior to inventor T'Challa. I don't know why some want that side so bad. You can literally emphasize how smart T'Challa is by showing how he uses advanced tech in creative ways. But that's too much to ask for I guess.

[Vibranium Weave]

The problem is not what T'Challa has. It is what writers choose to do with what he has.

If we're going to argue about the cool factor, obviously T'Challa would be at his coolest if he had no enhancements and high tech gear or armour, and could still wreck an alien werewolf and put Silver Surfer in a chokehold. Essentially, Batman with the highest amounts of PIS and plot armour.

But we don't want that, and T'Challa is not that. He's the warrior king of the most technologically advanced nation on Earth, chosen by a goddess. That fact isn't going away soon, so it's best to write everything about T'Challa with this in mind.

I don't care if a writer decides T'Challa will only have the bare minimum of a suit or Iron Man armour, or Batman level gadgets, or Reed Richards level intelligence. None of this will matter if nothing interesting or worth a damn is done with it.

The simplicity of Priest's gear set isn't why it worked. It was the versatility and the feats on display that made it work. We see the insane variety of tasks the energy daggers, kimoyo card and dampening soles can pull off. We see just how much damage the vibranium suit can take. Can you even compare any of that to Coates' kinetic energy suit and kimoyo beads?

It's even all the more frustrating when you look at the fact that the kinetic energy suit is a logical upgrade that keeps things fresh and the beads are immediately versatile. Maybe those who've been reading can tell me otherwise, but I never got the sense that he did anything particularly creative with them at all.

And that's where the problem lies: T'Challa is bogged down by writers that put him in mundane situations and uncreatively resolve these situations with technology, which makes it seem as if he's relying too much on technology.

I've said so many times that tactician T'Challa will always be superior to inventor T'Challa. I don't know why some want that side so bad. You can literally emphasize how smart T'Challa is by showing how he uses advanced tech in creative ways. But that's too much to ask for I guess.

Ummmm......can you write the next Black Panther comic run? I agree with all the stuff in bold.

T'Challa's tech does NOT need to be stripped away!

When I say tech, I mean the following:

-Vibranium Weave (with Force Push)
-Anti-Metal Claws
-Energy Daggers
-Kimoyo Computer System
-Vibranium energy dampening soles in his boot (minus being able to walk on water lol)

T'Challa needs to be put in more critical situations where all of his talents, abilities, and resources are put to use against incredible odds & antagonists. My two favorite BP stories are Strum Und Drang & Enemy of the State 2. In both of these stories, T'Challa has to use all of his talents, abilities, and resources to come out Victorious.

He doesn't need to be stripped down to "Jungle Action" T'Challa to show he has heart.

It seems like people want just a more capable "Jungle Action" T'Challa. He gets stabbed and shot, but just doesn't bleed as much as he did in McGregor's run lol.

[Ezyo1000]

And I'm not downplaying T'Challa... I'm simply arguing that the better his gear is, the less it makes sense to underestimate him. When you go from an acrobat in a cat suit to a guy wearing Iron Man level armor, you're going to be underestimated a whole lot less. That's just common sense. Why wouldn't a person be less likely to underestimate a guy carrying around more powerful gear?

When you have a more streamlined T'Challa (which I personally prefer), you can play the "underestimating him" card more readily. Raising the power level of a character inherently effects the way he should be written and perceived. To not do that is bad writng.

You mention Redjack... and he (like Priest) didn't write the character wearing Iron Man level gear. And that's sort of my point. I prefer the character written to where the man is emphasized over the gear, and skill is not replaced by tech.

You seem to think because someone has more tech they can't be underestimated. In Ultimates T'Challa did it to anti-man and Thanos. Maybe your getting hung up on the wording. Does surprised work better for you? Fact is even knowing what he has at his disposal, T'Challa constantly makes people underestimate him and it's his super power, it's his thing. Just like how you claimed that Steve's thing is being able to have anybody follow him and take orders from him. Same thing for T'Challa. Also tchallas power level hasn't changed really. From priest to Hudlin, Hickman and Ewing he has consistently fought well above his weight class. And can fight street level to cosmic and everything in between.

Again you keep getting hung up on my words and think that because i say they are underestimating him it means they are dumb, when that's not the case, a person who meticulously planned and prepped for a fight can still underestimate their opponent despite the fact they prepared for them.

Also for my Redjack example. See last avenger again. T'Challa sported some advanced "Ironman level" gear against Tony and beat him, why? Because Tony underestimated him despite preparing for round 2 with him.

T'Challa is the finest tactician on Earth. Period. No one else even comes close. that's his real genius. Hand-to-hand or driving armies, he is the FINEST TACTICIAN on the planet.

I agree, however Unfortunately he plays second fiddle to Steve, Carol, Monica etc etc. Because in the mu everyone gets their "thing" from tactician which writers always default to Steve, smartest defaults to Reed, greatest h2h goes to IF etcm so imo his greatest super power is being underestimated, he in my mind is the greatest warrior on the planet.

[Ezyo1000]

The problem is not what T'Challa has. It is what writers choose to do with what he has.

If we're going to argue about the cool factor, obviously T'Challa would be at his coolest if he had no enhancements and high tech gear or armour, and could still wreck an alien werewolf and put Silver Surfer in a chokehold. Essentially, Batman with the highest amounts of PIS and plot armour.

But we don't want that, and T'Challa is not that. He's the warrior king of the most technologically advanced nation on Earth, chosen by a goddess. That fact isn't going away soon, so it's best to write everything about T'Challa with this in mind.

I don't care if a writer decides T'Challa will only have the bare minimum of a suit or Iron Man armour, or Batman level gadgets, or Reed Richards level intelligence. None of this will matter if nothing interesting or worth a damn is done with it.

The simplicity of Priest's gear set isn't why it worked. It was the versatility and the feats on display that made it work. We see the insane variety of tasks the energy daggers, kimoyo card and dampening soles can pull off. We see just how much damage the vibranium suit can take. Can you even compare any of that to Coates' kinetic energy suit and kimoyo beads?

It's even all the more frustrating when you look at the fact that the kinetic energy suit is a logical upgrade that keeps things fresh and the beads are immediately versatile. Maybe those who've been reading can tell me otherwise, but I never got the sense that he did anything particularly creative with them at all.

And that's where the problem lies: T'Challa is bogged down by writers that put him in mundane situations and uncreatively resolve these situations with technology, which makes it seem as if he's relying too much on technology.

I've said so many times that tactician T'Challa will always be superior to inventor T'Challa. I don't know why some want that side so bad. You can literally emphasize how smart T'Challa is by showing how he uses advanced tech in creative ways. But that's too much to ask for I guess.

This. Right here. This is why T'Challa is so great. It's natural for his gear to progress. You can't be the leader of the most advanced nation on earth and still use old tech. You can keep it simple but still advance it. Yet some think if you do this somehow T'Challa will or just suffer a loss to make up for it. Your point about versatility in Priest tech is by far the most underrated part of all. And frankly we have discussed here so many innovative ways to utilize stelfreeze's changes and additions to the habit while Coates continues to lazily and uncreatively waste potential

[XPac]

You seem to think because someone has more tech they can't be underestimated. In Ultimates T'Challa did it to anti-man and Thanos. Maybe your getting hung up on the wording. Does surprised work better for you? Fact is even knowing what he has at his disposal, T'Challa constantly makes people underestimate him and it's his super power, it's his thing. Just like how you claimed that Steve's thing is being able to have anybody follow him and take orders from him. Same thing for T'Challa. Also tchallas power level hasn't changed really. From priest to Hudlin, Hickman and Ewing he has consistently fought well above his weight class. And can fight street level to cosmic and everything in between.

Again you keep getting hung up on my words and think that because i say they are underestimating him it means they are dumb, when that's not the case, a person who meticulously planned and prepped for a fight can still underestimate their opponent despite the fact they prepared for them.

Also for my Redjack example. See last avenger again. T'Challa sported some advanced "Ironman level" gear against Tony and beat him, why? Because Tony underestimated him despite preparing for round 2 with him.



I agree, however Unfortunately he plays second fiddle to Steve, Carol, Monica etc etc. Because in the mu everyone gets their "thing" from tactician which writers always default to Steve, smartest defaults to Reed, greatest h2h goes to IF etcm so imo his greatest super power is being underestimated, he in my mind is the greatest warrior on the planet.

We'll have to agree to disagree about RedJacks BP being more Iron Man like... he used gear, but I don't think he was necessarily reliant on it. I think the emphasis was more on the man that the gear, as it should be. But that's just my take.

As far as T'Challa being underestimated... again, my logic is simple. The more powerful he is, the less likely that is to happen. If you're wearing Iron Man level armor from the most advanced nation on earth, you're less likely to be underestimated than an acrobat in a cat suit. To NOT take him seriously is stupid UNLESS you're a villain who is vastly more powerful, like a Thanos. Then it's fine.

You're parroting my line about T'Challa being able to fight everything from street level to cosmic and everything in between... problem being street level characters in theory can't fight guys who wear kinetic absorbing suits able to tank blows from Namor. In theory... in practice the suit just stops working that way to the point where Killmonger or Red Skull can do just fine, but that's ultimately bad writing.

It's better to streamline the characters gear and upgrade as needed than it is to just magially have his gear vanish or not work when it's not convenient for the story. Or just decide NOT to have the character capable of dealing with characters in different weight classess... but I don't think that does him any favors either. There are advanage of being able to plug a character into almost any situation. Thor or Superman can't really be used in every story, but a Batman or a Spider-Man for the most part can. And that works in the characters favor more times than not.

[Ezyo1000]

We'll have to agree to disagree about RedJacks BP being more Iron Man like... he used gear, but I don't think he was necessarily reliant on it. I think the emphasis was more on the man that the gear, as it should be. But that's just my take.

As far as T'Challa being underestimated... again, my logic is simple. The more powerful he is, the less likely that is to happen. If you're wearing Iron Man level armor from the most advanced nation on earth, you're less likely to be underestimated than an acrobat in a cat suit. To NOT take him seriously is stupid UNLESS you're a villain who is vastly more powerful, like a Thanos. Then it's fine.

You're parroting my line about T'Challa being able to fight everything from street level to cosmic and everything in between... problem being street level characters in theory can't fight guys who wear kinetic absorbing suits able to tank blows from Namor. In theory... in practice the suit just stops working that way to the point where Killmonger or Red Skull can do just fine, but that's ultimately bad writing.

It's better to streamline the characters gear and upgrade as needed than it is to just magially have his gear vanish or not work when it's not convenient for the story. Or just decide NOT to have the character capable of dealing with characters in different weight classess... but I don't think that does him any favors either. There are advanage of being able to plug a character into almost any situation. Thor or Superman can't really be used in every story, but a Batman or a Spider-Man for the most part can. And that works in the characters favor more times than not.

Okay, where did I say Redjacks BP was more Ironman like? It helps when you actually read what people say instead of inserting your own words and answering them. I said when he faced im again in the episode The last Avenger for their second go around, he was sporting "Ironman level gear" and he beat Tony again because Tony underestimated him despite prepping for him. Hell in their earlier fight Tony was sporting gear specifically designed for him and he lost. Why? Because he underestimated him. The Avengers know what T'Challa is capable of, are they badly written Because they underestimated him and lost? No, they DID prepare for him.. just not enough, hence underestimating him.

And I'm not parroting anything. I have been saying that for years that he can do that. But when I say street level, I don't mean facing some literal street level guys but if T'Challa teams with Spiderman he can fit in there without issues. I doubt he would team with say Daredevil or something. And not everything is about punching thing's head on. Which is exactly why T'Challa can fight Above his weight class because he evens the odds against him. This is basic stuff and something that shouldn't even need to be explained.

And it's better to have a character naturally evolve, and in the case of the most advanced nation on earth, and how vibranium should naturally be able to redirect energy absorbed. This was an obvious upgrade. Plus I will add, ANY tech or power or what have you can be boring if it's used excessively or unimaginatively. Like when Thor fans talk about him using the god blast which was cool in theory until it was used to death. Innovation is what keeps thing's interesting and moderation is what keeps thing's from becoming a crutch

[XPac]

Okay, where did I say Redjacks BP was more Ironman like? It helps when you actually read what people say instead of inserting your own words and answering them. I said when he faced im again in the episode The last Avenger for their second go around, he was sporting "Ironman level gear" and he beat Tony again because Tony underestimated him despite prepping for him. Hell in their earlier fight Tony was sporting gear specifically designed for him and he lost. Why? Because he underestimated him. The Avengers know what T'Challa is capable of, are they badly written Because they underestimated him and lost? No, they DID prepare for him.. just not enough, hence underestimating him.

And I'm not parroting anything. I have been saying that for years that he can do that. But when I say street level, I don't mean facing some literal street level guys but if T'Challa teams with Spiderman he can fit in there without issues. I doubt he would team with say Daredevil or something. And not everything is about punching thing's head on. Which is exactly why T'Challa can fight Above his weight class because he evens the odds against him. This is basic stuff and something that shouldn't even need to be explained.

And it's better to have a character naturally evolve, and in the case of the most advanced nation on earth, and how vibranium should naturally be able to redirect energy absorbed. This was an obvious upgrade. Plus I will add, ANY tech or power or what have you can be boring if it's used excessively or unimaginatively. Like when Thor fans talk about him using the god blast which was cool in theory until it was used to death. Innovation is what keeps thing's interesting and moderation is what keeps thing's from becoming a crutch

If the Avengers or anyone else for that matter know what he's capable of and are still underestimating him, then they are being written stupid. Because no one that isn't stupid would underestimate him if they know what he is capable of.

And T'Challa fighting above his weight class isn't the issue... it's fighting below where the problem lies. It's why him losing a fist fight to Red Skull or even Killmonger doesn't make a whole lot of sense when he's wearing gear capable of taking blows from guys 200 times stronger than Red Skull or Killmonger. Thats where things need to be explained... though it's seldom the case.

[Vibranium Weave]

If the Avengers or anyone else for that matter know what he's capable of and are still underestimating him, then they are being written stupid. Because no one that isn't stupid would underestimate him if they know what he is capable of.

And T'Challa fighting above his weight class isn't the issue... it's fighting below where the problem lies. It's why him losing a fist fight to Red Skull or even Killmonger doesn't make a whole lot of sense when he's wearing gear capable of taking blows from guys 200 times stronger than Red Skull or Killmonger. Thats where things need to be explained... though it's seldom the case.

....or maybe someone is underestimating Killmonger....

[XPac]

....or maybe someone is underestimating Killmonger....

Namor has class 100 strength, so if Killmonger even has 1 ton strength Namor should at least 100 times stronger. And I say at least because class 100 means over 100 tons. We don't know for sure how much over.

Point being it's a big enough difference between Killmonger and Namor to the point where if you can take a blow from the later, a blow to the former shouldn't be much of an issue at all.

[Redjack]

Namor has class 100 strength, so if Killmonger even has 1 ton strength Namor should at least 100 times stronger. And I say at least because class 100 means over 100 tons. We don't know for sure how much over.

Point being it's a big enough difference between Killmonger and Namor to the point where if you can take a blow from the later, a blow to the former shouldn't be much of an issue at all.

Namor can go toe-to-toe with baseline Hulk.

Killmonger isn't in his weight class by hundreds of miles.

[Redjack]

If the Avengers or anyone else for that matter know what he's capable of and are still underestimating him, then they are being written stupid. Because no one that isn't stupid would underestimate him if they know what he is capable of.

And T'Challa fighting above his weight class isn't the issue... it's fighting below where the problem lies. It's why him losing a fist fight to Red Skull or even Killmonger doesn't make a whole lot of sense when he's wearing gear capable of taking blows from guys 200 times stronger than Red Skull or Killmonger. Thats where things need to be explained... though it's seldom the case.

In the show, at least, we made several points to make our Killmonger at least equal to T'Challa.

In INTO THE DEEP we established Killmonger as the royal battle instructor prior to his stint as ambassador, having trained all the kids, including hunter in hand-to-hand.

In T'CHALLA ROYALE we made it clear that his armor was a match for T'Challa's

Throughout the series Killmonger was shown to be at least one step ahead of the heroes more than once.

I don't kn ow what they're doing in the comics these days but we made things very clear.

[XPac]

In the show, at least, we made several points to make our Killmonger at least equal to T'Challa.

In INTO THE DEEP we established Killmonger as the royal battle instructor prior to his stint as ambassador, having trained all the kids, including hunter in hand-to-hand.

In T'CHALLA ROYALE we made it clear that his armor was a match for T'Challa's

Throughout the series Killmonger was shown to be at least one step ahead of the heroes more than once.

I don't kn ow what they're doing in the comics these days but we made things very clear.

I'd frankly argue that aside from physical strength at least in their earlier fights (they likely are more equal now), Killmonger is the underdog against T'Challa in the comics. An underdog that suprising keeps winning despite that. It's almost the reverse of what you might traditionally expect in a villain/hero dynamic.

That said, Killmonger getting a god powered symbiote likely upgrades him quite a bit so the problem is probably moot.

[Ezyo1000]

If the Avengers or anyone else for that matter know what he's capable of and are still underestimating him, then they are being written stupid. Because no one that isn't stupid would underestimate him if they know what he is capable of.

And T'Challa fighting above his weight class isn't the issue... it's fighting below where the problem lies. It's why him losing a fist fight to Red Skull or even Killmonger doesn't make a whole lot of sense when he's wearing gear capable of taking blows from guys 200 times stronger than Red Skull or Killmonger. Thats where things need to be explained... though it's seldom the case.

No.. there not. Again you getting hung up on the word and are using it as a basis that characters are being stupid and therefore must be written badly.

Question time, in Priest run, why did Ironman lose to T'Challa despite creating the most advanced suit at the time specifically designed to counter him? Answer. Because he underestimated him. He didn't realize how far T'Challa was willing to go to beat him. Was Tony an idiot? No, was he written badly? No. Is it possible to still underestimate the capability of someone despite knowing their capability? Absolutely and it's not being stupid.

This same thing happened in Redjacks run. Were any of the Avengers stupid or written badly? No. Hell T'Challa underestimated how far WS was willing to go to take him down for the apparent death of Steve in the series. Does that make T'Challa stupid? No. Let's put it in simpler terms. Say Tony knows T'Challa is capable of running 60mph, so he creates tech that is capable of tagging tchalla at 60 mph. T'Challa starts moving at 70 mph and beats him. Did Tony underestimate him? Yes. Is Tony stupid? No. Was he written badly? No. Hence the power to get people to underestimate him still stands.

As for your second point. It is moot and doesn't even matter. Your basically arguing 20 year old stories as your basis for why he shouldn't have upgraded tech that's a natural progression given the resource used to create it. The issue your talking about falls on the writer's responsibility to make sense of it. And in Priest case with T'Challa vs Erik, it was a ceremonial fight and likely he wasn't wearing the microweave. That or Erik was just alot stronger physically which had been mentioned in the story when he was revived so.. Redskull fight was just lazier writing to create stakes

[XJlock]

I'd frankly argue that aside from physical strength at least in their earlier fights (they likely are more equal now), Killmonger is the underdog against T'Challa in the comics. An underdog that suprising keeps winning despite that. It's almost the reverse of what you might traditionally expect in a villain/hero dynamic.

That said, Killmonger getting a god powered symbiote likely upgrades him quite a bit so the problem is probably moot.

I believe that his symbiote is on borrowed time since the Panther Goddess must reclaim her stolen power back.

[XPac]

No.. there not. Again you getting hung up on the word and are using it as a basis that characters are being stupid and therefore must be written badly.

Question time, in Priest run, why did Ironman lose to T'Challa despite creating the most advanced suit at the time specifically designed to counter him? Answer. Because he underestimated him. He didn't realize how far T'Challa was willing to go to beat him. Was Tony an idiot? No, was he written badly? No. Is it possible to still underestimate the capability of someone despite knowing their capability? Absolutely and it's not being stupid.

This same thing happened in Redjacks run. Were any of the Avengers stupid or written badly? No. Hell T'Challa underestimated how far WS was willing to go to take him down for the apparent death of Steve in the series. Does that make T'Challa stupid? No. Let's put it in simpler terms. Say Tony knows T'Challa is capable of running 60mph, so he creates tech that is capable of tagging tchalla at 60 mph. T'Challa starts moving at 70 mph and beats him. Did Tony underestimate him? Yes. Is Tony stupid? No. Was he written badly? No. Hence the power to get people to underestimate him still stands.

As for your second point. It is moot and doesn't even matter. Your basically arguing 20 year old stories as your basis for why he shouldn't have upgraded tech that's a natural progression given the resource used to create it. The issue your talking about falls on the writer's responsibility to make sense of it. And in Priest case with T'Challa vs Erik, it was a ceremonial fight and likely he wasn't wearing the microweave. That or Erik was just alot stronger physically which had been mentioned in the story when he was revived so.. Redskull fight was just lazier writing to create stakes

The 20 year old stories aren't the basis for why I believe he shouldn't have upgraded his tech to the degree he did... the basis for that is merely my personal preference that he be more streamlined and less reliant on tech. As I've said many times, I don't believe you should replace gear with tech.

The 20 year old stories are only problematic in a theoretical sense. In THEORY it makes it harder for him to fight lower end villains. In practice it doesn't matter since the suit only works when it serves the purpose of the story. So it doesn't actually hinder T'Challa from facing foes of different power levels... it just makes it less consistant. But that ship has sort of sailed.

As far as the underestimating thing... we'll have to agree to disagree that being more powerful doesn't mean he's going to be underestimated less. Again, an acrobat in a cat suit is far more likely to be underestimated than a guy in Iron Man armor. To me at least. If you feel otherwise, cool. All I can say is that I personally believe he's being underestimated a lot less in the stories, and I find that believable. His power level has gone up and his rep has gone up. I'm not saying it can't happen... but there's less reason for it to happen.