Black Panther Appreciation 2020

[MindofShadow]

Taking away T'Challa's standard gear will not resolve the issue of poor writing. No matter what, T'Challa needs a good writer.

Oh I am aware

Just commenting on why some writers can't write T'challa's tactical brain. It takes more skill to pull off.

It is really simple honestly in regards to any comic book hero's rogues.

You up the rogues to match the hero. You don't downgrade the hero to match the rogues.

You have rogues that are smarter. You have rogues that are stronger. You have rogues with skill sets different than T'challa. Thanks to T'challa political nature, you have also have rogues that challenge him politically or use his position against him.

No one goes, "take away Mjolnir from Thor so he matches up with the Wrecking Crew better!!!" No one. Ever.

[Vibranium Weave]

There was a rational to it under Priest.

Kraven's knives got through the micro-weave fibers, and Killmonger, along with Acebe, knew of the suit and planned accordingly.

Priest introduced the suit, but I think people overlook how often people got through it. Because they were smart enough to know that they needed to.

Panther should be fighting guys smart enough to know the threat he represents and plan accordingly.

This is how it should be.

[Ezyo1000]

Sure Eric is stronger than T'Challa... but he's over a hundred times weaker than the Hulk. It's the difference between being punched by a human being and being punched by a freaking mouse. I don't think we can make any headway in this conversation simply because I don't think you're quite grasping how vast a difference there is between being punched by one and the other. If the suit can tank blows from the Hulk (even just one) with no ill effect whatsoever, then Killmonger in a straight up hand to hand with T'Challa should be screwed. But that's not the case. Just as it wasn't with the Red Skull.

That said, I'm fine assuming that at times he wasn't using a vibranium laces suit at various times in his career because frankly that's the only way this can make sense. So as head canon goes, it's probably the best we can do.

I grasp the situation just fine. What YOU are assuming is that namor, or hulk hit T'Challa with full force. When it's clear they obviously didn't otherwise he would be dead. Or seriously injured. Yes in the upper limits of strength Erik is no Where near those two. However he is strong enough to hurt T'Challa through the habit be it through getting around it or enough damage. No matter how strong something is, hit it repeatedly enough times and it's integrity starts to wear down. Again T'Challa vs hulk or namor too what, one hot from them in priest run, and then didn't get hit again whereas Erik and he fought toe to toe (assuming he was wearing the weave which we don't know) but even then read Hudlins run. He is wearing the weave and you can see him getting hit or dazed but he isn't injured really so then they put on armor and use stronger weapon's to try and get through the defenses.

And again. This doesn't even matter why? Because T'Challa did tank hits form namor and hulk within the last few years and when he got hit by hulk recently he got knocked out cold and the habit almost failed him which would of killed him. So he has taken big hits and you know what he hasn't faced in recent years? Erik powered hits, which now likely won't effect him and so therefore the threats need to be at a minimum Spiderman level strength to scale UP to T'Challas level of defense, or they need to use a method to get around the habit. Both are valid, both can work, but they require the writer to not be lazy. And guess what, in the redskull fight. That was lazy writing.

I don't think your grasping how one fights above their weight class

[XPac]

I grasp the situation just fine. What YOU are assuming is that namor, or hulk hit T'Challa with full force. When it's clear they obviously didn't otherwise he would be dead. Or seriously injured. Yes in the upper limits of strength Erik is no Where near those two. However he is strong enough to hurt T'Challa through the habit be it through getting around it or enough damage. No matter how strong something is, hit it repeatedly enough times and it's integrity starts to wear down. Again T'Challa vs hulk or namor too what, one hot from them in priest run, and then didn't get hit again whereas Erik and he fought toe to toe (assuming he was wearing the weave which we don't know) but even then read Hudlins run. He is wearing the weave and you can see him getting hit or dazed but he isn't injured really so then they put on armor and use stronger weapon's to try and get through the defenses.

And again. This doesn't even matter why? Because T'Challa did tank hits form namor and hulk within the last few years and when he got hit by hulk recently he got knocked out cold and the habit almost failed him which would of killed him. So he has taken big hits and you know what he hasn't faced in recent years? Erik powered hits, which now likely won't effect him and so therefore the threats need to be at a minimum Spiderman level strength to scale UP to T'Challas level of defense, or they need to use a method to get around the habit. Both are valid, both can work, but they require the writer to not be lazy. And guess what, in the redskull fight. That was lazy writing.

I don't think your grasping how one fights above their weight class

I'm not grasping how one fights above their weight class... remember that I'm the one arguing T'Challa can do it with LESS gear rather than more. It's not fighting above that's the problem, so much as it's being able to believably fight different levels without resorting to the suit magically not working when it's convenient.

So no, the same suit being as comparatively effective against Killmonger as it is against the Hulk doesn't work for me personally... Killmonger can reign down punches on T'Challa a hundred times and it still won't do what a single shot from Hulk can do even at a fraction of his strength. It's the freaking Hulk.

But does it even matter? In the final analysis no. I prefer consistency in regards to his abilities but it's comics and we don't always get that. I didn't buy Red Skull nearly beating him when the suit should have offered more protection, but it was a great story otherwise so it's fine. I don't buy in the end these things don't actually matter. Just nitpicks to discuss on comic book discusion boards for those that actually care.

[Vibranium Weave]

Oh I am aware

Just commenting on why some writers can't write T'challa's tactical brain. It takes more skill to pull off.

It is really simple honestly in regards to any comic book hero's rogues.

You up the rogues to match the hero. You don't downgrade the hero to match the rogues.

You have rogues that are smarter. You have rogues that are stronger. You have rogues with skill sets different than T'challa. Thanks to T'challa political nature, you have also have rogues that challenge him politically or use his position against him.

No one goes, "take away Mjolnir from Thor so he matches up with the Wrecking Crew better!!!" No one. Ever.

I hope that the next writer of the Black Panther main comic will do the BOLD part in the quote above.

[XPac]

Oh I am aware

Just commenting on why some writers can't write T'challa's tactical brain. It takes more skill to pull off.

It is really simple honestly in regards to any comic book hero's rogues.

You up the rogues to match the hero. You don't downgrade the hero to match the rogues.

You have rogues that are smarter. You have rogues that are stronger. You have rogues with skill sets different than T'challa. Thanks to T'challa political nature, you have also have rogues that challenge him politically or use his position against him.

No one goes, "take away Mjolnir from Thor so he matches up with the Wrecking Crew better!!!" No one. Ever.

You can't really compare taking Mjolnir away from Thor with taking the Force Push away from T'Challa.

Thor has had Mjolnir from day one... he's had it for decades. T'Challa force push is relatively new. He's went decades without it.

I think the question isn't whether Thor needs to lose something, but whether or not he needs an upgrade. And would argue no. Classic Thor is more than powerful enough. A writer can of course make him more powerful if he wants to (and that's happened many times, with Rune Thor and Odinforce Thor etc), but does he need it?

If anything, the villains needs to be upgraded, not the heroes. When the heroes win 99% of the time, generally speaking there's no point in making them more powerful. There's no point in making it easier for the guys who almost always win to have an easier time winning.

Instead of upgrading the guys who don't need it since they're always winning anyways, upgrade the bad guys. They'll still lose of course... but it at least makes things a bit more interesting.

[Ezyo1000]

I'm not grasping how one fights above their weight class... remember that I'm the one arguing T'Challa can do it with LESS gear rather than more. It's not fighting above that's the problem, so much as it's being able to believably fight different levels without resorting to the suit magically not working when it's convenient.

So no, the same suit being as comparatively effective against Killmonger as it is against the Hulk doesn't work for me personally... Killmonger can reign down punches on T'Challa a hundred times and it still won't do what a single shot from Hulk can do even at a fraction of his strength. It's the freaking Hulk.

But does it even matter? In the final analysis no. I prefer consistency in regards to his abilities but it's comics and we don't always get that. I didn't buy Red Skull nearly beating him when the suit should have offered more protection, but it was a great story otherwise so it's fine. I don't buy in the end these things don't actually matter. Just nitpicks to discuss on comic book discusion boards for those that actually care.

Erik can't do what hulk can do with an100 blows at a fraction of strength. But that doesn't mean that he won't start wearing at the habits integrity with his hard blows, he is atleast hitting him with 10 ish ton strength based on assessments of what T'Challa was able to do in jungle action and priest run in which Erik was stronger there then he was in Jungle action. IF wasn't as strong as hulk but when he started hitting him with chi powered fists he eventually got through the habit. Erik can do the same with enough hits. Assuming T'Challa was even wearing the habit. And in recent years he hasn't been fighting people really below spider Man strength anyways

[Ezyo1000]

You can't really compare taking Mjolnir away from Thor with taking the Force Push away from T'Challa.

Thor has had Mjolnir from day one... he's had it for decades. T'Challa force push is relatively new. He's went decades without it.

I think the question isn't whether Thor needs to lose something, but whether or not he needs an upgrade. And would argue no. Classic Thor is more than powerful enough. A writer can of course make him more powerful if he wants to (and that's happened many times, with Rune Thor and Odinforce Thor etc), but does he need it?

If anything, the villains needs to be upgraded, not the heroes. When the heroes win 99% of the time, generally speaking there's no point in making them more powerful. There's no point in making it easier for the guys who almost always win to have an easier time winning.

Instead of upgrading the guys who don't need it since they're always winning anyways, upgrade the bad guys. They'll still lose of course... but it at least makes things a bit more interesting.

If the upgrade is a natural progression of his existing tech then why does it matter? All it does it make him fighting above his weight class, as well as fighting more effectively. Coogler has shown what can be done with it when it's used in creative ways rather then just being lazy. It's not T'Challas fault that the writer's in question are being uninspired, and new innovative ideas don't need to be lost because of it

[Vibranium Weave]

You can't really compare taking Mjolnir away from Thor with taking the Force Push away from T'Challa.

Thor has had Mjolnir from day one... he's had it for decades. T'Challa force push is relatively new. He's went decades without it.

I think the question isn't whether Thor needs to lose something, but whether or not he needs an upgrade. And would argue no. Classic Thor is more than powerful enough. A writer can of course make him more powerful if he wants to (and that's happened many times, with Rune Thor and Odinforce Thor etc), but does he need it?

If anything, the villains needs to be upgraded, not the heroes. When the heroes win 99% of the time, generally speaking there's no point in making them more powerful. There's no point in making it easier for the guys who almost always win to have an easier time winning.

Instead of upgrading the guys who don't need it since they're always winning anyways, upgrade the bad guys. They'll still lose of course... but it at least makes things a bit more interesting.

Someone is making it SEEM like this force push is the greatest power/ability in the whole Marvel Universe.

It is not as if any other characters have similar abilities......

(i.e. Bishop can absorb energy and redirect it, Carol Danvers can absorb energy and redirect it, Monica Rambeau can absorb energy and redirect it, Thor's Hammer can absorb energy and redirect it, etc.)

Someone is making a BIG deal about T'Challa's upgrade in his suit. Now all of a sudden it's as if it makes him invincible ( even though other characters have been doing it for years and can still tell great stories)

Ohh well.....

[XPac]

If the upgrade is a natural progression of his existing tech then why does it matter? All it does it make him fighting above his weight class, as well as fighting more effectively. Coogler has shown what can be done with it when it's used in creative ways rather then just being lazy. It's not T'Challas fault that the writer's in question are being uninspired, and new innovative ideas don't need to be lost because of it

I guess my point is I don't necessarily need him fighting more effeciently against guys hes beats 99% of the time anyways. Not counting Killmongers present power upgrade, his rogues are basically the same while he's gotten more powerful. The net result is basically the book making it easier for him to beat guys he normally beats anyways. And for me, that's the wrong direction to go. Make it HARDER for him so when he wins, it means more.

Had they upgraded the villains, and T'Challa upgraded in response to that I wouldn't mind as much.

[XPac]

Someone is making it SEEM like this force push is the greatest power/ability in the whole Marvel Universe.

It is not as if any other characters have similar abilities......

(i.e. Bishop can absorb energy and redirect it, Carol Danvers can absorb energy and redirect it, Monica Rambeau can absorb energy and redirect it, Thor's Hammer can absorb energy and redirect it, etc.)

Someone is making a BIG deal about T'Challa's upgrade in his suit. Now all of a sudden it's as if it makes him invincible ( even though other characters have been doing it for years and can still tell great stories)

Ohh well.....

It's not the greatest ability in the MU... my problem with it is that it replaces skill with tech.

Instead of dodging or blocking he can simply absorb the kinetic force of the blow. Instead of kicking or punching he can simply redirect the force.

He's not Iron Man. I don't need to see the suit doing the work for him. His tech should act as support, but it shouldn't be doing the actual work.

When he fought Deadpool, Wade got his butt kicked and was low key afraid to fight T'Challa... until he got his own vibranium suit. Then he was perfectly fine throwing down, and arguably even had a slight edge. Translation... Wade was afraid of the suit, not the man. WHich was exactly the direction I did not want to go.

The moral of the story being less is more. Priests T'Challa won fights with windex, while Liss' got his gear at Radio Shack. It wasn't the gear, it was the man. But the more relient he gets with his gear, the more that point is lost. Not that I'm expecting him to fight Thanos with Windex... I'm fine with him ramping up as needed. I just prefer him being a minimalist.

[Vibranium Weave]

It's not the greatest ability in the MU... my problem with it is that it replaces skill with tech.

Instead of dodging or blocking he can simply absorb the kinetic force of the blow. Instead of kicking or punching he can simply redirect the force.

He's not Iron Man. I don't need to see the suit doing the work for him. His tech should act as support, but it shouldn't be doing the actual work.

When he fought Deadpool, Wade got his butt kicked and was low key afraid to fight T'Challa... until he got his own vibranium suit. Then he was perfectly fine throwing down, and arguably even had a slight edge. Translation... Wade was afraid of the suit, not the man. WHich was exactly the direction I did not want to go.

The moral of the story being less is more. Priests T'Challa won fights with windex, while Liss' got his gear at Radio Shack. It wasn't the gear, it was the man. But the more relient he gets with his gear, the more that point is lost. Not that I'm expecting him to fight Thanos with Windex... I'm fine with him ramping up as needed. I just prefer him being a minimalist.

Ummm....sorry but the post doesn't make sense.

Priest GAVE T'Challa the following gear:
-Vibranium Weave
-Anti-Metal Claws
-Energy Daggers
-Kimoyo Computer System
-Vibranium energy dampening soles in his boot

The Vibranium Weave without the force push would still protect him from force of blows. Instead of kicking or punching, he could throw energy daggers as well.

T'Challa had all this gear and still used windex to beat Iron Man.

It's not about the gear/tech, it's about the writing and the threat level.

[XPac]

Ummm....sorry but the post doesn't make sense.

Priest GAVE T'Challa the following gear:
-Vibranium Weave
-Anti-Metal Claws
-Energy Daggers
-Kimoyo Computer System
-Vibranium energy dampening soles in his boot

The Vibranium Weave without the force push would still protect him from force of blows. Instead of kicking or punching, he could throw energy daggers as well.

T'Challa had all this gear and still used windex to beat Iron Man.

It's not about the gear/tech, it's about the writing and the threat level.

I agree it's about the writing and the threat level... problem being the threat level didn't increase with his increased power. Had T'Challa's gear been upgraded in response to Man Ape or Klaw being powered up, it would make more sense to me. But him being powered up against guys he already beats anyways seems pretty pointless to me. He's already beating these guys... why make it even easier for him to do it.

David beating Goliath with a rock is a pretty amazing story. If they had a rematch and David was given a machine gun, it becomes much much less amazing. You don't improve a story by making it easier for the protagonist. If you want to power up anyone, power up M'Baku. Give him Thing level strength which makes it nearly impossible for T'Challa to beat him in a straight fight, so when T'Challa freaking beats him anyways it actually means something.

[Vibranium Weave]

I agree it's about the writing and the threat level... problem being the threat level didn't increase with his increased power. Had T'Challa's gear been upgraded in response to Man Ape or Klaw being powered up, it would make more sense to me. But him being powered up against guys he already beats anyways seems pretty pointless to me. He's already beating these guys... why make it even easier for him to do it.

David beating Goliath with a rock is a pretty amazing story. If they had a rematch and David was given a machine gun, it becomes much much less amazing. You don't improve a story by making it easier for the protagonist.

Soo......your blaming the writing on the use of the force push?

Weren't you defending Coates while he was writing?

I am not sure if someone is aware of this but.....Coates was the writer of BP during the debut of the force push. It was a good tech upgrade, it just wasn't written properly in the BP main comic.

[XPac]

Soo......your blaming the writing on the use of the force push?

Weren't you defending Coates while he was writing?

I am not sure if someone is aware of this but.....Coates was the writer of BP during the debut of the force push. It was a good tech upgrade, it just wasn't written properly in the BP main comic.

I can like and defend a writer without agreeing with every single thing he's done. It's called objectivity.

I said day one the force book is a logical extension of his powers... I had no problem giving the book that credit. But I disliked the direction it took the character, as it inherently replaces skill with tech.

For the record, despite my criticism of the scene in DP vs BP where Wade basically acknowledges that the thing people should be worried about when fighting T'CHalla is the freaking suit, I liked that story too. It was fun. I can enjoy a story and like a writer without agreeing with absolutely everything I see on panel.

My view is to keep force push a suit designed for higher end threats which he wouldn't want to fight hand to hand. I have no problem with him using it against the freaking Hulk. I just don't prefer it as his standard gear. Again, merely my personal preference. Clearly Coates doesn't feel that way... we'll see what the next writer thinks.