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  1. #7096
    Astonishing Member Blind Wedjat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pumbaa View Post
    Yeah, I get you. Its just weird that they started so early with Black Panther. The throne of Wakanda has changed hands 5 times since T'challa's introduction in Civil War and he's only had 1 solo movie. Imagine if Caps shield, Iron man's armor or Thor's hammer had been handed to other people 5 times before their second movie. Would it feel like theirs or just theirs for now?

    Now that I'm thinking about it, whoever was on the throne in the 5 year time jump in Endgame has actually been on the throne longer than T'challa was. We dont know who it was but the MCU has forced us to imagine it now. And before we got confirmation that Shuri got dusted, many fans assumed she was on the throne so people grew comfortable imagining Wakanda with a queen too.
    Well yea, I've been saying this for months. The Russos unintentionally did some damage to the Black Panther mythos with the changes they made to his origin for Civil War, and how they handled the fallout of the events of Infinity War in Endgame for Wakanda. Even taking Wakanda out of it, the five year gap was completely unnecessary to that story and the only person it benefitted was Tony Stark who could have a daughter young enough to be adorable but old enough to not be a baby. All of this is stuff Coogler is/was forced to worked with because he has to abide by continuity and I never liked that.

    But I also think this is to be expected a little bit when you're dealing with a character that is both a king and inherits a warrior mantle. Someone else wanting to be king and/or Black Panther has always been a plot point in T'Challa's stories. Thor's slightly different because he doesn't want to be king and just wants to protect the nine realms. T'Challa has always struggled to find the right balance in being an Avenger for the world and being king of Wakanda. Adding Shuri to the mix, who is next in line if T'Challa doesn't marry and have kids makes it worse.

    But I also think the idea that the Black Panther is a mantle and not a codename exclusive to T'Challa is a good thing sometimes, and I feel Coogler's plans were to emphasize that. I think he was really trying to turn the Black Panther into a positive symbol for black youths that they could aspire to. More Superman and Spider-Man and less Batman. Like he was more concerned about showing T'Challa as a good person and less of a cool guy (even though you still got that). I think that's why you have that scene at the very end of the film with that young black boy in awe asking T'Challa who he is, and T'Challa just smiles at him.

    Of course I think he meant to do this more with T'Challa and Chadwick Boseman more in completion before the mantle could have been passed down. But maybe those plans will change.

  2. #7097
    Extraordinary Member Ezyo1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    For the movies at least, Shuri can carry the IP. The MCU brand name is itself strong enough to carry almost any movie to success at this point.

    Outside the mcu is a different matter ... comics in particular. But Tchalla doesn't have to be gone outside the mcu even if he's dead there. I'm pretty sure any characters who die in the mcu will still be around in the comics. We'll still have Tchalla, Tony Stark, and Steve Roger's in everything outside the mcu for decades to come.
    See here's the problem. Whenever there is a fan favorite everyone always wants them to headline a movies yet there is no guarantee that they can actually carry the movie. Shuri is fun and snarky, and Letitia is charsimatic, but you need to be more than that. You gotta be able to wear a bunch of hats, and actually be able to carry the movie. Supporting cast members are just that. Support. If anyone could headline just because the crowd likes them then we would have so many more spin off movies. But the truth is. Chances are if Shuri headlines and becomes the BP going forward (huge mistake) it's not going to be as successful

  3. #7098
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    See here's the problem. Whenever there is a fan favorite everyone always wants them to headline a movies yet there is no guarantee that they can actually carry the movie. Shuri is fun and snarky, and Letitia is charsimatic, but you need to be more than that. You gotta be able to wear a bunch of hats, and actually be able to carry the movie. Supporting cast members are just that. Support. If anyone could headline just because the crowd likes them then we would have so many more spin off movies. But the truth is. Chances are if Shuri headlines and becomes the BP going forward (huge mistake) it's not going to be as successful
    I'd love to get Shuri as BP at some point and I'd be intrigued by how they'd get her in since the traditions stipulate she has to fight for it. I'd be ok with Nakia taking the lead since she may not be a princess but she's supposed to be the representative of her own tribe, equal to T'Challa and M'Baku. She moved aside for T'Challa but I'd like to see her want to be the queen, even Shuri thought she has what it takes to be the next Black Panther. If Nakia and Shuri both want it, it's hers with that contest.
    Last edited by Steel Inquisitor; 09-16-2020 at 03:47 AM.

  4. #7099
    Extraordinary Member Ezyo1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blind Wedjat View Post
    Well yea, I've been saying this for months. The Russos unintentionally did some damage to the Black Panther mythos with the changes they made to his origin for Civil War, and how they handled the fallout of the events of Infinity War in Endgame for Wakanda. Even taking Wakanda out of it, the five year gap was completely unnecessary to that story and the only person it benefitted was Tony Stark who could have a daughter young enough to be adorable but old enough to not be a baby. All of this is stuff Coogler is/was forced to worked with because he has to abide by continuity and I never liked that.

    But I also think this is to be expected a little bit when you're dealing with a character that is both a king and inherits a warrior mantle. Someone else wanting to be king and/or Black Panther has always been a plot point in T'Challa's stories. Thor's slightly different because he doesn't want to be king and just wants to protect the nine realms. T'Challa has always struggled to find the right balance in being an Avenger for the world and being king of Wakanda. Adding Shuri to the mix, who is next in line if T'Challa doesn't marry and have kids makes it worse.

    But I also think the idea that the Black Panther is a mantle and not a codename exclusive to T'Challa is a good thing sometimes, and I feel Coogler's plans were to emphasize that. I think he was really trying to turn the Black Panther into a positive symbol for black youths that they could aspire to. More Superman and Spider-Man and less Batman. Like he was more concerned about showing T'Challa as a good person and less of a cool guy (even though you still got that). I think that's why you have that scene at the very end of the film with that young black boy in awe asking T'Challa who he is, and T'Challa just smiles at him.

    Of course I think he meant to do this more with T'Challa and Chadwick Boseman more in completion before the mantle could have been passed down. But maybe those plans will change.
    See I don't see why the plan has to change though. T'Challa is still a good man and an inspiration. Shuri is fun but she doesn't carry the same gravitas as T'Challa, Letitia was perfect for the role but she is more targeted towards young Black girl's in the fun disney princess type. Bit ruling the most advanced nation on earth, beating back world ending threats type. And while yes she can get to that point, her story needs to progress to which she can do that. Right now basically it would be a repeat of BP 1. When hee story would need to do something different to no just retread the same stuff and not have to story actually move.

    And I think the best thing is to continue to tell stories with T'Challa. He is the one who was going to take a Major role in the Avengers, so I think that should be played out with T'Challa providing that beacon for young Blacks. And it's not as of there aren't any female characters for young girl's to look up to. They have 3 in the movie, all with agency and differing personalities. If Shuri takes over. Young boys have... A traitor and M'Baku, and M'Baku is cool but you need more unless he got a major upgrade but even then it wouldn't be enough to tip those scales.. plus ya know, the feeling young kids will have to go through T'Challa dying again. I remember kids being legit upset both when T'Challa "died" in his movie and when he got snapped in IW. And now some people want him to die again on screen for good? Just so Shuri can take over? I mean that's frakked

  5. #7100
    Astonishing Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    See here's the problem. Whenever there is a fan favorite everyone always wants them to headline a movies yet there is no guarantee that they can actually carry the movie. Shuri is fun and snarky, and Letitia is charsimatic, but you need to be more than that. You gotta be able to wear a bunch of hats, and actually be able to carry the movie. Supporting cast members are just that. Support. If anyone could headline just because the crowd likes them then we would have so many more spin off movies. But the truth is. Chances are if Shuri headlines and becomes the BP going forward (huge mistake) it's not going to be as successful
    When has anybody in the MCU had to carry anything other than Robert Downey Jr. On just a superficial level a Shuri lead BP movie is going to successful because of how Marvel does things. If Shuri/Letitia is BP going forward there is a playbook and it isn't going to be a huge mistake.

    As Black Panther fan by design you understood that he was going to be a MCU focal point moving forward with Iron Man/Cap and Shuri's character design being a little different form T'challa,Shuri is more frontline support role like Thor/Hulk than "the Anchor" like Iron Man/Cap that T'challa would be. So we understand how important character is that aspect and the big picture but that doesn't mean Shuri and different direction/style for Black Panther would be a mistake. It might not be your idea what BP should be being hardcore fan but it is funny thinking that Disney is going to miss with a Princess.
    Last edited by Killerbee911; 09-16-2020 at 04:42 AM.

  6. #7101
    Astonishing Member Blind Wedjat's Avatar
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    Meant to say the plans might change. My bad.

  7. #7102
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    See here's the problem. Whenever there is a fan favorite everyone always wants them to headline a movies yet there is no guarantee that they can actually carry the movie. Shuri is fun and snarky, and Letitia is charsimatic, but you need to be more than that. You gotta be able to wear a bunch of hats, and actually be able to carry the movie. Supporting cast members are just that. Support. If anyone could headline just because the crowd likes them then we would have so many more spin off movies. But the truth is. Chances are if Shuri headlines and becomes the BP going forward (huge mistake) it's not going to be as successful
    That's like asking whether or not Jane can take over the Thor franchise. On paper many might question whether or not she can... but Disney is obviously trying to prove those people wrong. We'll see.

    IF the idea is to develop Shuri into a leading character, I think Coogler and Disney can do it. You can frankly argue the female characters carried the last third of the BP movie. Which isn't the same thing as carrying an entire movie ... but it set the table for it conceptually.

  8. #7103
    The Professional Marvell2100's Avatar
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    This is what some people seem to be missing. T'Challa isn't dead. Why should MCU do a movie where there is no T'Challa? Out of respect to Chadwick?

    How the hell is that honoring Chad by getting rid of the character he worked so hard to build? If anything we should by honoring him by making sure that T'Challa is still around to inspire more even more people.

    Shuri is going to be in the next BP movie no matter what so why some people feel like we need to move on from T'Challa is mind-f#cking blowing. Shuri not becoming BP is nothing compared to the loss of not having T'Challa around in the MCU for the foreseeable future.

  9. #7104
    Mighty Member dkrook's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    I'm really confused as to why we have to wait till next year to end the run, I mean most other titles started up and we're Continuing again. Unless there is something else win the mix I. Regards to the new writer they should of just ended the run and moved on
    I have wondered that myself. The other hero titles have switched modes in most cases almost seamlessly, matter of fact often you hear there's a new writer coming on as there is a current writer still doing a run. I'm sure that Marvel knew for a while they had a clunker with coates at some point. Why weren't they making plans then, especially knowing that his second movie was going to be ramping up with the next year. Yes, in my opinion the play would be to have a new writer and new energy building prior to movie dropping and just ride the synergy wave when it comes. I guess they still can do all this but it does make one wonder.

  10. #7105
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marvell2100 View Post
    This is what some people seem to be missing. T'Challa isn't dead. Why should MCU do a movie where there is no T'Challa? Out of respect to Chadwick?

    How the hell is that honoring Chad by getting rid of the character he worked so hard to build? If anything we should by honoring him by making sure that T'Challa is still around to inspire more even more people.

    Shuri is going to be in the next BP movie no matter what so why some people feel like we need to move on from T'Challa is mind-f#cking blowing. Shuri not becoming BP is nothing compared to the loss of not having T'Challa around in the MCU for the foreseeable future.
    For the more agenda driven people, it's likely viewed as the best and perhaps only shot for a minority female to lead an mcu movie. Right now she's got a 50/50 shot ... it might not ever get better than that.

    They can of course HOPE for a Storm or a Spectrum movie, but there's not even the slightest hint of that on the horizon. Fighting for Shuri is a tangible potentially achievable goal.

    That said, it's a small but vocal minority voice calling for it. Casual fan I'm sure will be happy either way.

  11. #7106
    The Professional Marvell2100's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    I'm really confused as to why we have to wait till next year to end the run, I mean most other titles started up and we're Continuing again. Unless there is something else win the mix I. Regards to the new writer they should of just ended the run and moved on
    Bro, I wish I knew why. Maybe they're afraid to release it because the sales would bomb ever worse right now. It wasn't doing that great pre-covid.

    Maybe they didn't want to compete with the big events and other new #1s being released and have some kind of promotional build up to the story of "a king who became a slave, a slave who became a rebel, a rebel who became a...zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz".

    Maybe that's why.

  12. #7107
    Mighty Member dkrook's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    That's like asking whether or not Jane can take over the Thor franchise. On paper many might question whether or not she can... but Disney is obviously trying to prove those people wrong. We'll see.

    IF the idea is to develop Shuri into a leading character, I think Coogler and Disney can do it. You can frankly argue the female characters carried the last third of the BP movie. Which isn't the same thing as carrying an entire movie ... but it set the table for it conceptually.
    What...? Nobody knew what the last third of the movie's plot was going to be going in! T'Chadwick brought in over a billion. The impression he made from Civil War carried over into his own film. The women in the film were an added surprise for Black Panther, not in any way the reason for it. Look X, you have implied that you are a shuri fan over a T'Challa fan. I get it, but don't you think some of your statements are are wild bruh.

  13. #7108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pumbaa View Post
    After a night of watching Black Panther YouTube videos I have a thought:
    The MCU has failed to make T'challa and The Black Panther as inextricably connected in the mind of MCU fans as he is in the mind of BP comic fans. In fact they have actually primed the audience to imagine a Wakanda without T'Challa. We've seen several people wearing panther habits (T'Chaka, T'Challa and N'jadaka) and we've been forced to imagine other people on the throne for extended periods of time (Years between Infinity War and Endgame)

    In MCU fans minds T'Challa = Chadwick and The Black Panther = Whoever is currently on the throne.

    Perhaps the passing the mantle discussion started with some people pushing an agenda, but its past that now. When people like Comicstorian and EmergencyAwesome are saying the respectful thing to do is honor his legacy and pass the mantle then I doubt its some agenda anymore. This is what some people genuinely feel and I think the MCU has primed them to feel this way.
    Nah the agenda is definitely at play still but I agree that Coogler/Feige didnít make TíChalla inextricably connected with the mantle. And itís in part because of the reasons you outlined but also because the film was simply carried by its supporting cast to a heavier degree than any other major solo film. Letís not act like one of the major criticisms of the first film wasnít that TíChalla felt like he lost some of his edge from Civil War and was less engaging (some would say less interesting) than most of the other (primarily female) side characters.

    Iíd be lying if I said I havenít seen online polls where Shuri and Okoye actually ranked higher than TíChalla in terms of popularity and likability. I personally disagree with the notion, but the reality is a lot of people saw the first Black Panther as an ensemble film where for them they found themselves gravitating towards other characters. So when an opportunity presents itself to remove the lead and replace it with another character, well theyíre gonna take it, especially since weíve already developed this mindset of the actor and the character being linked and thus it will be awkward to see anyone else play TíChalla.

    Combine that with the mediaís overwhelming desire for a black female led superhero film, which can only realistically come via Shuri and thereís a lot of push for TíChalla going away and being denied the opportunity to shine on the big screen for a decade like Cap/Tony. .

  14. #7109
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dkrook View Post
    What...? Nobody knew what the last third of the movie's plot was going to be going in! T'Chadwick brought in over a billion. The impression he made from Civil War carried over into his own film. The women in the film were an added surprise for Black Panther, not in any way the reason for it. Look X, you have implied that you are a shuri fan over a T'Challa fan. I get it, but don't you think some of your statements are are wild bruh.
    Firstly I'm not a fan of one over the other. Me saying I believe Shuri can carry a movie is not the same thing as me saying it's a preference. Again, I'm happy supporting whatever Coogler decides ... and that includes potentially using neither. If he went Kasper Cole or Killmonger over both Shuri and Tchalla, I would be fine with it. And it's not because I prefer Kasper Cole (for the record I don't). I simply have faith in Coogler and Feige, because in my mind I earned that faith.

    And I agree no one knew the female characters would have as big a role as they did ... merely saying from my own personal view I think they got over. Priest himself even commented they carried the movie. Obviously that's just an opinion... but the movie gave women a lot of spotlight and it seemed to work just fine. Doesn't mean they can necessarily carry a whole movie... but it's a proof of concept. It potentially can work if Disney ever wants to try and make it work.

  15. #7110
    Astonishing Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marvell2100 View Post
    This is what some people seem to be missing. T'Challa isn't dead. Why should MCU do a movie where there is no T'Challa? Out of respect to Chadwick?

    How the hell is that honoring Chad by getting rid of the character he worked so hard to build? If anything we should by honoring him by making sure that T'Challa is still around to inspire more even more people.

    Shuri is going to be in the next BP movie no matter what so why some people feel like we need to move on from T'Challa is mind-f#cking blowing. Shuri not becoming BP is nothing compared to the loss of not having T'Challa around in the MCU for the foreseeable future.
    It is not honoring him necessarily but Chadwick is so tied to the role and did so well that the next person will have a very hard time. They will be people who are unable to see T'challa as anyone other than Chadwick. Then you have to find actor the caliber of Chadwick then imagine if the actor isn't good and what that will do the brand/character. The big point is this isn't easy decision and bothsides dicussion have real downsides. I am actually on the side of a recast but I am fine whatever direction they go because it is a tough choice.

    Now the one thing move on does is give us a chance at closure. And a well written ending to T'challa give us a chance to grieve Chadwick and Black Panther. And leave the legacy of character the actor had in tact.

    Anyways there is no easy answer here and the sad part of this is Chadwick didn't get to see the outpouring of love people had for him. I get he why he didn't saying anything he was 100% in belief that he was going to beat it but I wish we could gotten to share how much he meant to us while he was alive.
    Last edited by Killerbee911; 09-16-2020 at 05:46 AM.

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