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  1. #7186
    The Professional Marvell2100's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    Green Lantern John Stewart wants a word....... Lost his wife and family background thanks to NEW 52. Yet one thing had followed him-something something blown up planet.

    Hal butchered most of the GLC and they have moved on. Yet John and that planet.
    Man, they played that with John Stewart like forever.

    John mistakenly blows up a planet and that's what his basically known for.

    Hal deliberately kills the Corps and does some other shadey isht and they find a way to blame it on something else.

    Even when they did the New 52 they pretty much erased that from Hal's history but they kept that part of John's.

  2. #7187
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    Green Lantern John Stewart wants a word....... Lost his wife and family background thanks to NEW 52. Yet one thing had followed him-something something blown up planet.

    Hal butchered most of the GLC and they have moved on. Yet John and that planet.
    The difference is John fucked up all on his own lol. His rival is himself and the writers that don't wanna let him move on from Xanshi. Hal is the face of the GL franchise, he can do whatever he wants to his glorified supporting cast and get away with it.

    That's different from T'Challa, who had a dude from outside his mythos slaughter tens of thousands of his people and openly admit to wanting to slaughter even more. There's no easy fix outside of retconning (which won't happen), continuing the bloodshed (defining T'Challa as Namor's rival and vice versa), or blaming it on someone else and returning the relationship to what it once was (my preferred option).

  3. #7188
    Extraordinary Member Ezyo1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chief12d View Post
    Namor doesn't get clowned like that for a few reasons. There's a certain credence he gets from being from the Golden Age, he's an anti-hero so him doing terrible things is easier for fans and creators to sweep under the rug, and he did it against a character that not many hardcore fans love. If this was Iron Man or Doctor Doom I'm sure there'd be more eagerness for them to get revenge or at least thoroughly embarrass Namor.

    It's a dumb situation for both characters to be in because really all Namor should('ve) do is just apologize and blame the Phoenix. His flood of Wakanda was one of the biggest moments of AvX and frankly that's one of the most identifiable BP moments for non-fans (and unfans) so there's no chance it gets retconned. And T'Challa killing Namor is just gonna result in Namor killing him or their two kingdoms fighting sometime down the road, keeping the feud going.

    I really think he should just say the Phoenix made him do it and that when he was basically salivating at the idea of slaughtering more Wakandans that was remnants of it in his system or some shit. That way while they still dislike each other, it's at least a bit easier to move on and get back to the rapport they had during Priest's run.
    It's Hickman's fault. He should of had T'Challa kill Namor and then brought him back with the gauntlet because he had accomplished his goal and Atlantis and Wakanda both could recoup the loss of life with T'Challa bringing the 616 back. But instead he had T'Challa fail, further embarrassing him and basically now it's impossible for them to be allies again because that is lingering over their head

  4. #7189
    BCB 4sake Baned's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    It's Hickman's fault. He should of had T'Challa kill Namor and then brought him back with the gauntlet because he had accomplished his goal and Atlantis and Wakanda both could recoup the loss of life with T'Challa bringing the 616 back. But instead he had T'Challa fail, further embarrassing him and basically now it's impossible for them to be allies again because that is lingering over their head

    This he has to die by BP/Wakandan hands for there rship to ever be readable..

  5. #7190
    Extraordinary Member Ezyo1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chief12d View Post
    The difference is John fucked up all on his own lol. His rival is himself and the writers that don't wanna let him move on from Xanshi. Hal is the face of the GL franchise, he can do whatever he wants to his glorified supporting cast and get away with it.

    That's different from T'Challa, who had a dude from outside his mythos slaughter tens of thousands of his people and openly admit to wanting to slaughter even more. There's no easy fix outside of retconning (which won't happen), continuing the bloodshed (defining T'Challa as Namor's rival and vice versa), or blaming it on someone else and returning the relationship to what it once was (my preferred option).
    You know this could of been fixed by T'Challa killing Namor though. Hell Hickman could of came out and said before god Doom and T'Challa began their fight, when Doom shot thst energy blast at T'Challa, he purposefully deflected it towards Namor because he knew he would just get in the way and been done with it because he planned on using the stone to restore him anyways. It was set up for an easy write off

  6. #7191
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    It's Hickman's fault. He should of had T'Challa kill Namor and then brought him back with the gauntlet because he had accomplished his goal and Atlantis and Wakanda both could recoup the loss of life with T'Challa bringing the 616 back. But instead he had T'Challa fail, further embarrassing him and basically now it's impossible for them to be allies again because that is lingering over their head
    That would've been the ideal situation. Even if Namor did what he did, T'Challa killing him would've gave the character his balls back and when Namor was revived things could start from scratch. Because at least then they'd be 2 for 2. Namor flooded the Golden City and sent the Black Order to Wakanda (killing T'Challa's sister) and T'Challa is complicit in Atlantis' destruction and Namor's personal death (as was originally promised). Because they're kings they accept that they did what they had to and can move on as frenemies. Bonus points if it was really all the Phoenix's fault and it all boils down to a misunderstanding/the pressures of their crowns.

    Unfortunately that's not what we got and at this point the best they can do is have Namor show some regret for once and let the past die lol.

  7. #7192
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chief12d View Post
    As always, you do a great job summing up my thoughts on stuff lol.
    Thanks man! >bro fist!<

    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    I think the biggest reason to add Clint (aside from being an original Avenger) is that it helps set up both the Black Widow movie and the Hawkeye show. He needed to be there for Natasha's sacrifice. It all made sense.
    Oh, all that makes sense, we were just talking about the Ronin scene. I mean, it was great to have an action sequence with Clint where he wasn't just standing around shooting arrows, and it put us in his head space and told us about what he'd been doing during the time jump, so it's not like it was *pointless* but...well, it seems like you kinda gotta justify any scene that Clint takes the lead in, because it's friggin Hawkeye and basically every other Avenger is more interesting than he is. I'm looking forward to the show, I really enjoyed Fraction's run, but when Clint is standing in a room with gods, super soldiers, kings and alien super weapons....well, it's hard to hold up your end of the entertainment when you're basically just snarky Robin Hood.

    As for this whole Phoenix thing....am I the only one who's sick and tired of that damn bird? Like, I enjoy the concept but I'm over seeing a bunch of heroes end up hosting it and fighting other heroes.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  8. #7193
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chief12d View Post
    That would've been the ideal situation. Even if Namor did what he did, T'Challa killing him would've gave the character his balls back and when Namor was revived things could start from scratch. Because at least then they'd be 2 for 2. Namor flooded the Golden City and sent the Black Order to Wakanda (killing T'Challa's sister) and T'Challa is complicit in Atlantis' destruction and Namor's personal death (as was originally promised). Because they're kings they accept that they did what they had to and can move on as frenemies. Bonus points if it was really all the Phoenix's fault and it all boils down to a misunderstanding/the pressures of their crowns.

    Unfortunately that's not what we got and at this point the best they can do is have Namor show some regret for once and let the past die lol.
    Namor showed regret... just not to T'Challa. When Hope confronted Namor about it, he actually was willing to show a degree of vulnerabilty and was basically admitting to her that he wasn't entirely in control in Consequenes.

    But Namor would never expose that level of weakness to T'Challa. He's sooner have T'Challa believe he was a mass murderer than a victim of the Phoenix as a matter of pride. Not that it was the Phoenix faut per say.in that Phoenix wanted Wakanda destroyed.. but he wasn't in complete control of himself. But Namor is Namor, and unlike most heroes it's actually not abnormal for him to be a mass murderer, so writers never have to go through the same loops to clear him that other characters need to.
    Last edited by XPac; 09-17-2020 at 06:17 PM.

  9. #7194
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Thanks man! >bro fist!<



    Oh, all that makes sense, we were just talking about the Ronin scene. I mean, it was great to have an action sequence with Clint where he wasn't just standing around shooting arrows, and it put us in his head space and told us about what he'd been doing during the time jump, so it's not like it was *pointless* but...well, it seems like you kinda gotta justify any scene that Clint takes the lead in, because it's friggin Hawkeye and basically every other Avenger is more interesting than he is. I'm looking forward to the show, I really enjoyed Fraction's run, but when Clint is standing in a room with gods, super soldiers, kings and alien super weapons....well, it's hard to hold up your end of the entertainment when you're basically just snarky Robin Hood.

    As for this whole Phoenix thing....am I the only one who's sick and tired of that damn bird? Like, I enjoy the concept but I'm over seeing a bunch of heroes end up hosting it and fighting other heroes.
    The Phoenix is definately overplayed.

    It would be nice if marvel editorial decided to give a break on both Phoeinx and Galactus. If they were off limits for even just a year, I think it would make them feel special again.

    That said, Aaron made Phoenix a part of all of this right from the start with his 1mil BC Avengers, so you knew Phoenix was going to be a part of this sooner or later. I am a bit curious to see how Aaron ties all these lose threatd together... vampires, Moon Knight, Phoenix, Squadron Supreme, Namor, Mephisto, etc... lots and lots of moving parts here.

  10. #7195
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    The Phoenix is definately overplayed.

    It would be nice if marvel editorial decided to give a break on both Phoeinx and Galactus. If they were off limits for even just a year, I think it would make them feel special again.

    That said, Aaron made Phoenix a part of all of this right from the start with his 1mil BC Avengers, so you knew Phoenix was going to be a part of this sooner or later. I am a bit curious to see how Aaron ties all these lose threatd together... vampires, Moon Knight, Phoenix, Squadron Supreme, Namor, Mephisto, etc... lots and lots of moving parts here.
    I'm mostly waiting for the global superhuman arms race Aaron's been teasing and hinting at to finally come into serious play. That would be something . . . assuming he doesn't waste it.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  11. #7196
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Namor showed regret... just not to T'Challa. When Hope confronted Namor about it, he actually was willing to show a degree of vulnerabilty and was basically admitting to her that he wasn't entirely in control in Consequenes.

    But Namor would never expose that level of weakness to T'Challa. He's sooner have T'Challa believe he was a mass murderer than a victim of the Phoenix as a matter of pride. Not that it was the Phoenix faut per say.in that Phoenix wanted Wakanda destroyed.. but he wasn't in complete control of himself. But Namor is Namor, and unlike most heroes it's actually not abnormal for him to be a mass murderer, so writers never have to go through the same loops to clear him that other characters need to.
    But Hope isn't Wakandan lol. He committed mass murder with the equivalent of a WMD followed by what all accounts looked like a full assault of the Golden City's civilians. That he wasn't willing to admit to a single person directly affect by those events that he maybe wasn't fully in control of himself means he might as well have spit on them. He does about as much when he straight tells T'Challa he'd wished that he had killed more Wakandans, demonstrating some outright villainous, genocidal tendencies. We know reading other books that he probably feels regret, but in-universe T'Challa, let alone the other Wakandans wouldn't know that. And even if he did, he'd still expect a verbal acknowledgement.

    So as far as I'm concerned the relationship won't ever feel "right" (as right as it could given the way things happened) until he apologizes and admits he wasn't fully in control. It requires him humbling himself and T'Challa being a good enough man and fellow king to accept his apology. Is it in character? Probably not, but then again I don't think it was in character for Namor to revel in the slaughter of innocents or for T'Challa not to kill him when given the best chance. A lot of inconsistent characterization went into building up their rivalry so I wouldn't feel particularly bad if a writer changed their attitudes out the blue to have them make up and move into a more positive relationship. Frankly they're much more interesting as frenemies than open foes but I think they need that discussion to truly make it make sense.
    Last edited by chief12d; 09-17-2020 at 06:36 PM.

  12. #7197
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chief12d View Post
    But Hope isn't Wakandan lol. He committed mass murder with the equivalent of a WMD followed by what all accounts looked like a full assault of the Golden City's civilians. That he wasn't willing to admit to a single person directly affect by those events that he maybe wasn't fully in control of himself means he might as well have spit on them. He does about as much when he straight tells T'Challa he'd wished that he had killed more Wakandans, demonstrating some outright villainous, genocidal tendencies. We know reading other books that he probably feels regret, but in-universe T'Challa, let alone the other Wakandans wouldn't know that. And even if he did, he'd still expect a verbal acknowledgement.

    So as far as I'm concerned the relationship won't ever feel "right" (as right as it could given the way things happened) until he apologizes and admits he wasn't fully in control. It requires him humbling himself and T'Challa being a good enough man and fellow king to accept his apology. Is it in character? Probably not, but then again I don't think it was in character for him to do what he did in the first place or revel in the slaughter of innocents or for T'Challa not to kill him when given the best chance. A lot of inconsistent characterization went into building up their rivalry so I wouldn't feel particularly bad if a writer changed their attitudes out the blue to have them make up and move into a more positive relationship. Frankly they're much more interesting as frenemies than open foes but I think you need that discussion to truly make it make sense.
    Some people will disagree with me here.. but I think T'CHalla deep down knows Namor wasnt't entirely accountable for his actions. None of the P5 really. We saw Cyclops for example try and destroy the earth and we know under normal circumtances he wouldn't do that (though Scott obviously was going through a far more extreme experience than Namor). I think in the end everyone knew the P5 werent in control of their actions... if they were, the Avengers arguably wouldn't have attempted to fight them in the first place. But they knew the P5 were dangerous precisely because they weren't entirely in complete control.

    That's not to say T'Challa had any obligation to forgive or forget... but I think the reason T'Challa allowed things to drop is because he knows deep down Namor wasn't in control. Other posters I'm sure will disagree with me on that.. and that's fine. The books do leave the issue somewhat vague and open to interpretation.

    As far as Namor humbling himself... I think the only character he'd really do that for is Sue Richards or Steve Rogers. If the writers ever decide for the 2 characters to develop more of a bond, it could be a possibility down the line. But right now, it probably won't happen. They don't intereact enough at this point for it to matter that much if it feels "right" between them. But if that ever changes, I think we could see a more human side to Namor.

  13. #7198
    The Professional Marvell2100's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    I'm mostly waiting for the global superhuman arms race Aaron's been teasing and hinting at to finally come into serious play. That would be something . . . assuming he doesn't waste it.
    I hope he doesn't either. We've got:

    Namor and the Deep Sea Defenders
    Soviet Super Soldiers
    Squadron Supreme of America
    Dracula and his vampire nation
    plus Gorilla man as a spy for the Russians

    Aaron's juggling a lot of balls in the air. One thing I just started thinking about - what if T'Challa has more spies among these other teams? We know Ursa Major is spying for him on the Soviets.

    That encounter with with the Japanese vampire Snowsnake where they were fighting and he said that he brought antidotes that could cure her and restore her honor? What if he did and she agreed to spy for him?

    These are the kinds of maneuvers that T'Challa needs to be doing. Dude should be trying to outmaneuver all of these groups and trying to find weak spots.

  14. #7199
    Mighty Member dkrook's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chief12d View Post
    But Hope isn't Wakandan lol. He committed mass murder with the equivalent of a WMD followed by what all accounts looked like a full assault of the Golden City's civilians. That he wasn't willing to admit to a single person directly affect by those events that he maybe wasn't fully in control of himself means he might as well have spit on them. He does about as much when he straight tells T'Challa he'd wished that he had killed more Wakandans, demonstrating some outright villainous, genocidal tendencies. We know reading other books that he probably feels regret, but in-universe T'Challa, let alone the other Wakandans wouldn't know that. And even if he did, he'd still expect a verbal acknowledgement.

    So as far as I'm concerned the relationship won't ever feel "right" (as right as it could given the way things happened) until he apologizes and admits he wasn't fully in control. It requires him humbling himself and T'Challa being a good enough man and fellow king to accept his apology. Is it in character? Probably not, but then again I don't think it was in character for Namor to revel in the slaughter of innocents or for T'Challa not to kill him when given the best chance. A lot of inconsistent characterization went into building up their rivalry so I wouldn't feel particularly bad if a writer changed their attitudes out the blue to have them make up and move into a more positive relationship. Frankly they're much more interesting as frenemies than open foes but I think they need that discussion to truly make it make sense.
    I completely understand where you coming from, but sadly we all know that its a Marvel imperative that Doom nor Namor can ever be made to be in any kind of beaten, or subservient position before T'Challa. You know full well why this is too.

  15. #7200
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Some people will disagree with me here.. but I think T'CHalla deep down knows Namor wasnt't entirely accountable for his actions. None of the P5 really. We saw Cyclops for example try and destroy the earth and we know under normal circumtances he wouldn't do that (though Scott obviously was going through a far more extreme experience than Namor). I think in the end everyone knew the P5 werent in control of their actions... if they were, the Avengers arguably wouldn't have attempted to fight them in the first place. But they knew the P5 were dangerous precisely because they weren't entirely in complete control.

    That's not to say T'Challa had any obligation to forgive or forget... but I think the reason T'Challa allowed things to drop is because he knows deep down Namor wasn't in control. Other posters I'm sure will disagree with me on that.. and that's fine. The books do leave the issue somewhat vague and open to interpretation.

    As far as Namor humbling himself... I think the only character he'd really do that for is Sue Richards or Steve Rogers. If the writers ever decide for the 2 characters to develop more of a bond, it could be a possibility down the line. But right now, it probably won't happen. They don't intereact enough at this point for it to matter that much if it feels "right" between them. But if that ever changes, I think we could see a more human side to Namor.
    I don't think your post is wrong as far as pointing out where the two stand now. I agree that T'Challa probably knows that Namor wasn't fully in control of himself. He's a man of science so it's not too hard to deduce that a mortal mind would have trouble containing the power of a multiversal being.

    He was also married to an X-Man who knew better than most the corruptive power of the Phoenix as she saw her own best friend (and a much better person than Namor) fall to its influence. But I don't believe T'Challa is without a backbone and would ever be buddy buddy with someone with such a small mind who would rather than admit to an unintentional slaughter, proclaim genocide. Especially since he knows of Namor's duplicitous nature and can't be entirely sure if he actually means it.

    Which is why their current situation works narratively, even if I don't care for it. T'Challa seems to have thoroughly depersonalized their issues and looks at Namor like a dangerous wildcard. A cog in the machine of the many threats he has to take on as leader of the world's greatest team. Namor for his part looks at T'Challa as basically another hero standing in his way of protecting Atlantis. It's an almost entirely antagonistic relationship with little of the nuance that it had under Priest or Hudlin. I respect Aaron for not reopening those wounds entirely but hell, it misses out on most of the progress (however contrived) even Hickman gave them during Secret Wars lol.

    I was speaking in hypotheticals and preferences when talking about Namor apologizing and T'Challa accepting. It doesn't NEED to happen, because the current arrangement makes sense story-wise. And like you said they haven't interacted all that much since Secret Wars anyway so unless the BP books wanted to take a crack at it, it's probably not necessary. But I think that IF Marvel wanted to shift them back into being frenemies as they were prior to AvX, an admission of the Phoenix's role would be a good start along with T'Challa being willing to move on, as he seems to mostly have done already.

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